[NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Difficulty: Medium] [1.06 UPDATE]

[kaywhyn]

Ah, I was already wondering if it was really supposed to be that fiddly. Thanks for the quick fix!

Haha the Sensational 16 I solved was still really easy. Should be even easier now that there's only 1 regular Lemmina

[WillLem]

Eesh! I just hope that nobody feels too put-out by it. I'm glad the pack is getting a bit of attention at the moment, or I might not have spotted it!

To be fair, 8 and 8 makes for basically the same solution, it just involves fiddly crowd control at the beginning. Not sure how that would affect the Talisman, though...

Anyway, it's fixed now!

[kaywhyn]

Even better that there is now an LP of the pack. No need to load up the game this way. Just need an internet connection

[Strato Incendus]

Alright, here's the third rank added. Strangely enough, I probably found Tricksy 02 the most difficult one. That was the only one I had to skip for a while and come back to again later.

Replays for rank 3 are attached; I deleted my old solution for Sensational 16 since it obviously no longer works since the fix.

Stylistically, this is a nice pack to play during Christmas time, without it being an outright Christmas pack!

[WillLem]

Stylistically, this is a nice pack to play during Christmas time, without it being an outright Christmas pack!

Thanks! I guess it does have holiday vibes

And thanks for the replays. I'll wait until you've finished the pack before reviewing them, and I'll keep an eye out and see if you've beaten any of the current records.

@Kaywhyn - that reminds me, I will do the same with your replays as well

[kaywhyn]

No worries, WillLem. Take your time. I know you're a busy man. I'm just happy to hear that you're enjoying my LP of your pack. There's a reply to a video comment that I would like an answer to when you get to it, though

[Strato Incendus]

And here's the Pandemonium rank, that's the pack completed!

Feedback

I skipped some levels initially, because based on my experiences from the previous ranks, I already expected Pandemonium not to be linear in puzzle difficulty either. I didn't have to skip around within the rank though, looking for whatever I can solve first (as I do when facing a genuinely hard pack). Instead, I only skipped over 2-3 levels, then solving the rest chronologically, to return and solve the skipped ones later.

In fact, that entire rank could probably be turned on its head! The first two levels are two of the most difficult ones in the pack (though Pandemonium 01 is a lot easier than 02, given that 01 I could still solve all by myself, whereas for 02 and 09 I needed a hint from kaywhyn's LP).

Pandemonium 09 is definitely the hardest one of the entire pack. Having seen how long even kaywhyn struggled with this one, I don't feel ashamed I didn't figure it out myself all the way. I tried a lot of different things, but all of them fell short just ever so slightly.

The rest of the Pandemonium levels however include a lot of execution-heavy stuff (like "Save us"), or provide very much leeway. Even the last level does, although the comparatively tight restriction of destructive skills provided at least some challenge here.

A part of that seems to be due to the trend of the ever-present 8 Walkers or so. Sure, sometimes they're genuinely needed for the puzzle and actually accounted for, so that you need to think about where you use every single one of them. But sometimes, they just give you additional chances to salvage things that probably shouldn't be available, at least not on the final rank. And I'm not actually referring to the Walker as a cancel skill here (as the Shimmier and Jumper can also be used for that), but specifically to the "turning around part".

Packs that get to a certain level of difficulty and maintain it consistently from there usually find a way to limit the number of times certain lemmings are allowed to turn around on a level. This can even be a great way to enforce a certain sequence of actions in a level without having to resort to time limits or pickup skills: The lemming just has to do A first, B second, otherwise he will come out facing the wrong direction at the end.

In short, the difficulty on Pandemonium felt all over the place to me, and a lot of these levels seemed like they didn't really belong into the same rank. Sure, it's nice to be able to solve more levels in a row for a change, instead of getting stumped by every single one of them. But that feels much less rewarding when you immediately realise the reason you could solve these levels is because they weren't designed to be tightly-restricted puzzles, but instead focused on execution stuff or just had a time limit slapped onto them.

For example, for the "Staircase to nowhere" level, I had a cool solution mind to contain the crowd, exploiting the staircases to allow those lemmings who slipped past the Stackers to get back behind the stack with the rest of the crowd. Sadly, this didn't work, because all the Stackers were needed to turn around at the end of each staircase. Instead, you just provided a bunch of Floaters so that the player can just allow all the lemmings to stroll around. With two Stackers more, but without any Floaters, this could have been a much better puzzle. Because it would have forced you to find a creative way to contain the crowd by using the given terrain to your advantage (as the one I just suggested), instead of just letting the lemmings wander about.

I'm not really sure what to think of the label "hard" now as a difficulty description for level packs. SEB Lems, my own Lemmings Open Air, and Lemminas all claim to go up to "hard".

Yet, SEB Lems has a bunch of levels that still have me stumped completely.
Lemmings Open Air seems a little easier for me (but Flopsy might see it exactly the other way round ;D ).
And Lemminas isn't really that hard at all, except for 2-3 levels that are miles above the rest in difficulty. This is not due to the fact that Lemminas starts out as very easy - that's completely fine - it just stays in the "Medium" field very long, and actually goes back into Medium difficulty on the highest rank after the most difficult puzzles have already been solved (assuming you want to play them chronologically - which, as said before, I didn't do, precisely for that reason ).



This however should not detract too much from all the positive things I have to say about this pack!

First of all, mad respect for all the effort you've put into not only designing the custom sprites (which I've already made use of myself with recolourings of the Lemminas), but also the trap animations, the exits, the recoloured terrain etc. All this comes together really nicely to create this weird, kitschy but also still inviting Candy world that, as I said before, fits nicely into the Holiday season without actually being a Holiday Lemmings pack (because we've definitely seen enough of those!)

Similar to Holiday packs though, Lemminas suffers a little from using pretty much the same tileset throughout the entire pack (with Holiday packs, that's usually the ONML Snow tileset, which is largely identical to the Christmas one). Of course, I know that many of the recoloured pieces were taken from different tilesets originally, but since they've been recoloured, they form a new unit. A unit that looks very cohesive, but at the same time, that also makes it more repetitive, because parts from Crystal, Marble, Snow, Brick etc. no longer differ that much in colour. They all have some shade of purple to them, so you can blend them with each other easily, but that comes at the cost of the designer basically no longer being able to switch to a different tileset at all. It basically looks like a recoloured version of the "Epic" tileset, which used to exist in older versions of NeoLemmix (and I believe it's originally from SuperLemmini? Since I've definitely seen it appear in Arty's SubLems, and those particular levels were part of both engines).

My favourite pieces are therefore probably those that you added as completely new ones, like the ice cream, the Melter trap (sure, that's a modification of that one Crystal trap, but only the trap itself is, not the animation), and the ice-cream ball that is a twist on the retractable Boulder trap from the Dirt tileset. This "creamy" look definitely makes for much more realistic ice cream than what I achieved when I used the lollis from namida's Candy tileset, sticking them behind the tight yellow fence pieces from the Bubble tileset to create ice cream in a waffle for the Lemmings World Tour level "Bon appetit!" Similarly, I still had to stack the chocolate water from namida Candy to create a class of coke for that same level. Your water here is supposed to be actual coke (Pepsi), so indeed, it looks a lot more "fizzy" .

Speaking of namida's Candy tileset: All the sweet ingredients from the Lemminas tileset should generally blend well with the existing Candy tilesets (that is namida Candy, Rayman Candy, and Raymanni Food). So thanks a lot for contributing to the Lemmings buffet!

I could even imagine the Lemminas becoming the unofficial new "standard sprites" for Candy-themed levels. (I'm not saying they should be linked to e.g. the namida Candy tileset automatically when that tileset is selected; I'm just predicting a lot of people might choose "Lemminas" as a level theme when they just design a regular Candy level.) Then you would basically have created a "Candy Tribe", to put it into L2 terms.

Since Lemmings 3D had a Candy tileset (better known as the Jelly Belly one), don't be surprised if some of these pieces show up in my upcoming "Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll"! (I'm pretty sure the L3D Candy levels only have chocolate water, though, no coke... but I have no problems expanding on those original L3D pieces if it fits both in terms of flavour - pun intended - and visual appeal. )

[kaywhyn]

Congrats Strato! I definitely agree with your assessment on Pandemonium 9 being the hardest in the rank. It's fascinating, since the trick used there is quite similar to the one used in Pandemonium 2, which I figured out fairly quickly. Otherwise, I thought the only other very hard level in the pack was Tricksy 9, the remake of POOR WEE CREATURES. I actually ended up struggling with that level slightly longer than what you see in my LP video, since I had forgotten to open OBS before recording! The entire Tricksy 9-13 video is not the original recording as a result. Interestingly, it seems all the remakes of original Lemmings levels were the hardest ones. I guess Pandemonium 3 also falls into the hard category as well, although it's more due to how there's a lot going on in the level more than anything, as the difficulty is offset by how it's an 8-of-everything.

I think you're also in agreement that Tricksy is the pack's strongest rank. I was definitely expecting the Pandemonium rank to be far more difficult, especially given how I completely underestimated the difficulty of the Apocalypse rank of Doomsday Lemmings. Not a bad thing that the entire rank wasn't very hard. It still slowed my solving time significantly, but in a good way of course

I'm not really sure what to think of the label "hard" now as a difficulty description for level packs. SEB Lems, my own Lemmings Open Air, and Lemminas all claim to go up to "hard".

Yet, SEB Lems has a bunch of levels that still have me stumped completely.
Lemmings Open Air seems a little easier for me (but Flopsy might see it exactly the other way round ;D ).
And Lemminas isn't really that hard at all, except for 2-3 levels that are miles above the rest in difficulty. This is not due to the fact that Lemminas starts out as very easy - that's completely fine - it just stays in the "Medium" field very long, and actually goes back into Medium difficulty on the highest rank after the most difficult puzzles have already been solved (assuming you want to play them chronologically - which, as said before, I didn't do, precisely for that reason ).

I definitely agree with you to an extent about hard possibly not as good of an indicator of an upper range to Lemminas' difficulty. As mentioned above, only 2-3 levels in the pack I found hard as well, with Pandemonium 9 the most difficult. Even Swerdis says it was hard for him, and I absolutely agree. So, this appears to be the universal agreement of what's the hardest in the pack.

The fact that some SEB Lems levels currently have you stuck really makes me want to speed my LPs along so that I can get to SEB Lems ASAP and help you out with the sticky parts of the pack. However, this will likely not be for another 2 weeks or so

[WillLem]

Some response to the recent feedback from Kaywhyn and Strato. Note that this specifically responds to the written feedback, as I have yet to watch Kaywhyn's full LP and view either sets of replays - this is something I'll specifically set time aside for at some point in the not too distant future.

I really appreciate the time you've taken to provide this feedback, and I'm sure it will help my future packs to be even better

Response to Kaywhyn's Feedback

The only thing I'm disappointed about is how Pandemonium 9 took several videos before I finally solved it, while all other levels took only 1 video to solve

Well, it is the final rank, what did you expect? I didn't want the entire pack to be a walkover, even though I was aiming for a more moderate level of difficulty. It's gratifying to see that the pack didn't give you too much trouble, generally.

Truthfully, other than Pandemonium 9, the only other hard level in the pack for me was Tricksy 9. Interesting the hardest levels in the pack both happened to be remakes of two levels from the original Lemmings.

Quite honestly, I think I both prefer, and find it easier, to remix existing levels rather than create totally new ones. If I already know a level's solution, I have more fun modifying it and giving it a new flavour than creating new puzzles totally from scratch. So, it makes sense that these would be the most interesting/challenging levels in the pack.

I found out, to my horror, after I had played through Tricksy 9-13 that I didn't have OBS open

Eeesh! I feel your pain, brother. I've been there, too!

Honestly, Pandemonium wasn't that difficult at all. It was definitely a letdown that the final 3 levels of the rank/pack that's in the final video of the LP were so much easier than some of the earlier levels of the rank and Tricksy.

I'm glad that it wasn't too difficult - my aim was to make this pack no more than moderately difficult, and accessible to a range of solving abilities. So, that part of the comment I'm actually happy with. I will try next time to balance the final rank so that the biggest challenges are at the end, though. That seems to be a unanimous feeling amongst the feedback I've received so far.

I would say that Tricksy is probably your best rank of the pack

Agreed, it's my favourite, too. Taxing is my favourite rank from Lemmings and Wicked is my favourite from Oh No! More Lemmings - it seems that the penultimate rank is a bit of a thing for me. I definitely found this rank the easiest and most enjoyable to put together.

Magical 5 - Lemmina Loop Prevention Service Great level and introduction to the teleporter for the tileset and pack. I wonder if the teleporter/receiver graphics can be better made to make it clear that the animated star sprinkles is a teleporter/receiver, as I originally thought they were just background decoration

Quite honestly, my feeling here is that the level was specifically designed to establish that graphic as a teleporter/receiver: the player cannot possibly avoid it, and anybody that doesn't spend too long with the level paused at the start will discover what's going on very quickly. I've already modified this graphic as much as I'm going to. I do appreciate what you're saying, but I think there's only so much you can do when it comes to custom graphics: at some point, you have to draw the line between what you find visually pleasing as a creator, and what the player needs to know just by looking. Start the level, press play, see what happens - it's a motion-based video game, not a picture puzzle! Sorry for the abruptness here btw, this is just something I feel very strongly about! Whilst I have come round to the way of thinking that everything should be clear to a player at first glance where possible, there are certain things that can only be discovered by actually playing the game.

I love the unlock exit sound

Thanks! The locked exit for this style is something that I feel I got just right, so it's nice to have it appreciated

I'm not much of a fan of using stackers to get up the level, since most of the time you need way more stackers than builders to get up the level. Not to mention spamming the same skill over and over with the same lemming gets dull and repetitive quite quickly

Yes, I agree. This is something I'll definitely aim to avoid in future packs.

Not sure why it's necessary to have 300, although I got to admit the level looks cool with all of them on the screen.

That's exactly the reason

The 300 lemmings thing is another that's come up fairly regularly in response to this pack, though, so - again - something to avoid for next time!

It's quite easy, but I can see that it can be difficult for a less experienced player, if one isn't aware of teleporter overload. Also, I think this might be the first level that I have seen where multiple teleporters can go to the same receiver.

Yeah, it occurred to me that players might get stuck on this one if they're unaware of how teleporters work. Hopefully, since the only thing you can do is change the release rate, this is something that may help certain players to discover the trick. That's what I'm hoping, anyway.

The receivers are actually overlapped - another thing I'll try to avoid in future so as not to cause unnecessary confusion.

Sensational 13 - The Unnecessarily Tall Pillars Probably the hardest level of the rank despite a somewhat minimal design and being a 1-of-everything level... I still like this level very much

I have to give some of the credit to namida here - his solution is the intended one (the level was originally designed with a totally different and much more straightforward solution, but then namida made me realise I could use the cloners in a very interesting way) - that's why the bee is there near the exit: as a "hats off" to namida for helping me with this level.

The only critique I have is it's impossible to tell whether she is close to falling off the left side at the bottom due to the lizard trap. I think namida suggested to use "no overwrite"?

Another case of aesthetics vs. level clarity. Since this part of the level is never used (and is in fact impossible to use as part of any solution), I figured aesthetics ought to win. Another thing I'll watch out for in future, though - it's been noted already.

Tricksy 6 - Day of the Daredevils! Part III Probably one of my favorites of the rank. Somewhat difficult, but I think the only hard parts are knowing... the end with one of the gliders to make her bounce off and turn around. Luckily, this has been observed a few times in some earlier levels, and so it didn't take me too long to realize this at the end.

Yes! Well spotted! I'm glad that you noted this; I tried to make it as obvious as possible several times throughout the pack before actually making it part of a puzzle. This is a version of a level I entered into a contest last year, hence why it's my name in massive letters!

Tricksy 13 - Nessy II Somewhat difficult... Certainly more interesting than Hunt the Nessy

Thanks! Although, I'm one of the very few players on the forums who enjoys the original Nessy - it makes a great challenge for playing pause-free, each of those Builder assignments gets more and more intense if you play it that way, and it becomes a much more interesting level.

Tricksy 15 - Just a Second... Definitely reminds me of namida's The Longest Second level, so I wonder if you got inspiration from that level?

I was aware of namida's level at the time I designed this, but the idea for creating a level called "Just a Second", which is only a second long, is one I've had for a long time. It's something I'd guess pretty much every level designer thinks of at some point, since it's such an obvious tribute to Just a Minute.

Pandemonium 2 - Milkshake Party Another great level which is probably my favorite of the rank... It definitely took me some time to think about how to get a Lemmina down to the exit area, and I absolutely loved what you wanted to achieve it. Well done!

Thank you, I appreciate that. This is probably my favourite Pandemonium level as well, and in hindsight it probably should have been much later in the rank, maybe even the penultimate level. The solution was actually based on a trick I discovered whilst playing original Lemmings using only the new skills: there are plenty of times when this trick comes in handy for that challenge!

Pandemonium 4 - Lemgate Nice level. It's hard to tell that inside the rings the blue stuff is background, though. Still, this was a visually nicely designed level.

This is my least favourite level in the pack. It's one of those times when I think I had a good idea, and made it look pretty, but the finished product is such a ridiculous mess. Finding the balance between good ideas, looking pretty, and being a decent level is something I'm working on all the time!

Pandemonium 7 - Falling Forever Part II Somewhat difficult, but this was somewhat another favorite of mine. The solution is just awesome to watch when it comes together correctly.

Yes, thanks! I love levels like that, where you can watch the solution back and see it all happen perfectly. I aim for that kind of thing a lot, but not too much - I don't like levels to be too prescriptive.

Pandemonium 8 - Staircase to Nowhere III Where were the other two versions? A level that's annoying for me due to repeatedly spamming the same skill over and over so many times... I definitely sounded very bored while palying the level

I think this one's an example of my tendency towards execution difficulty making it into the game. I still like the level, but I can see why players might find it somewhat tiresome. I'd encourage you to just see levels like this as something a bit different that you can just play your way through.

Pandemonium 9 - With a Twist of Lemmina Please By far the hardest level of the rank and of the entire pack. It's surprising how I ended up struggling so much with this level, when I didn't struggle anywhere near as much with all the other levels. The only level of the pack that required multiple videos. I later realized that while writing the feedback for Pandemonium 2 that the trick I used in that level ended up being used here when I was finally successful. Not sure why it took me so long to figure that out. I also watched your replay and the only difference is I swapped the walker for the cloner for both the beginning and end.

You're not alone in this assessment of the level. It's definitely the one I'm proudest of in terms of its actual puzzle, and I clearly did very well to backroute-proof it. I'll aim to put more levels like this in the final ranks in future (but not too many! )

Pandemonium 13 - Constellations II I wasn't too much of a fan of this level due to all the building that needs to be done. It can also be a bit fiddly due to the tiny stars.

Yeah, this is another example where I favoured looks over substance. It's so ridiculous - the stars at the beginning are supposed to spell out "WL" when you connect them! Eeesh! I won't be doing many more levels like this in future, I assure you!

Pandemonium 15 - Nothing is Impossible... Obviously the level was inspired after I showed you the Snow Palace level for Superlemmini.
[/quote]

Indeed it was - well remembered! And, thanks for the inspiration - I would never have come up with this puzzle had it not been something I tried in order to solve Snow Palace. I still think that level is impossible, btw...

Once again, excellent job with this pack, and one I can highly recommend to others to play if they haven't yet. This pack seems to be way better now than the earlier versions from what I read, although I probably would not had liked to play the early versions of the pack when most of the levels were suboptimal than they are now due to how there were elements that are generally not liked by most of the community, in particular the hidden stuff, since I'm one of those players who thinks everything required to solve the level should be visible from the get-go. Like you, I don't mind the occasional hidden traps, but if it happens a lot in a short amount of time, then I will mind and will start getting annoyed. Occasional use is fine for the variety.

Thanks for your comments, and yes - I am glad that I responded well enough to that early feedback to make the pack much more community-friendly (and, admittedly, much better generally!) Lemminas would not be what it is now without a lot of help, support and strongly-worded suggestions from the forum long-timers, for sure! I also agree that it could be even better in many ways, but - that's what future packs are for. We all have to start somewhere

Response to Strato's Feedback

In fact, that entire rank could probably be turned on its head![/b] The first two levels are two of the most difficult ones in the pack

Agreed. I generally like level 1 of a rank to be quite challenging, but level 2 should definitely have been later. I think it would have made a good one to come before the Rendezvous level (which was always going to be the finale, of course!).

Pandemonium 09 is definitely the hardest one of the entire pack.

This seems to be unanimous - as I said in response to Kaywhyn's feedback, I'm glad this level's puzzle is intact enough to have been a challenge for pretty much every player. I wouldn't like to have too many levels like this in a pack, even in the final rank, but I'm happy that this is one that worked well as a "puzzle level"

The rest of the Pandemonium levels however include a lot of execution-heavy stuff... or provide very much leeway. Even the last level does
...
it's nice to be able to solve more levels in a row for a change, instead of getting stumped by every single one of them. But that feels much less rewarding when you immediately realise the reason you could solve these levels is because they weren't designed to be tightly-restricted puzzles
...
Lemminas isn't really that hard at all, except for 2-3 levels that are miles above the rest in difficulty. This is not due to the fact that Lemminas starts out as very easy - that's completely fine - it just stays in the "Medium" field very long, and actually goes back into Medium difficulty on the highest rank after the most difficult puzzles have already been solved

Execution-focused stuff is kind of bound to make its way into my packs, because I enjoy that style of gameplay. I'll try to limit it in future, but it's not something I can totally eliminate from my creative output.

As for the difficulty level, the pack is supposed to be at the "easier" end of the spectrum generally, so I'll take all of the above comments as testimony that I achieved that particular goal, for better or worse.

To respond more directly to one particular thing you mentioned...

A part of that seems to be due to the trend of the ever-present 8 Walkers or so. Sure, sometimes they're genuinely needed for the puzzle and actually accounted for, so that you need to think about where you use every single one of them.

Levels which provide you with lots of skills AND require them all to be used in a very specific way are my least favourite kinds of levels. 1-of-eaches that do this are fine, maybe even 2-of-each can still be enjoyable depending on the complexity of the map and how many types of skills there are. But, if I've provided 8 of a skill it's because I want to encourage the player to get creative and find their own way of solving the given map; not every level has to be an out-and-out puzzle, even in the later ranks - I'm a firm believer that sometimes, the maps themselves can present their own challenges.

For example, for the "Staircase to nowhere" level, I had a cool solution mind to contain the crowd, exploiting the staircases to allow those lemmings who slipped past the Stackers to get back behind the stack with the rest of the crowd

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're happy to edit the level and show me a replay of the solution you had in mind, I'd be more than happy to consider it for a sequel level (if you'd be happy for me to do that, of course)!

This however should not detract too much from all the positive things I have to say about this pack!

Gee, I hope this comment isn't followed by yet more criticism...!

Similar to Holiday packs though, Lemminas suffers a little from using pretty much the same tileset throughout the entire pack... They all have some shade of purple to them, so you can blend them with each other easily, but that comes at the cost of the designer basically no longer being able to switch to a different tileset at all

Oh

I jest, of course. It's a valid comment, and I'm aware that the Lemminas style is in danger of being very much viewed as "the purple one" (despite the fact that it also features lots of blue, red, green, orange, and various other colours as well - albeit in admittedly much smaller quantities!)

It's something I'm very much going to address in Lemminas II - I want the sequel to be much more visually varied!

First of all, mad respect for all the effort you've put into not only designing the custom sprites (which I've already made use of myself with recolourings of the Lemminas), but also the trap animations, the exits, the recoloured terrain etc. All this comes together really nicely to create this weird, kitschy but also still inviting Candy world that, as I said before, fits nicely into the Holiday season without actually being a Holiday Lemmings pack (because we've definitely seen enough of those!)
...
My favourite pieces are therefore probably those that you added as completely new ones, like the ice cream, the Melter trap (sure, that's a modification of that one Crystal trap, but only the trap itself is, not the animation), and the ice-cream ball that is a twist on the retractable Boulder trap from the Dirt tileset.

Thank you for these kind comments, I'm really glad you enjoyed some of the visual elements of the pack, as I admittedly probably worked far more extensively on these than some of the puzzles (as is likely evident!)

As stated though, in future I'll aim for more variety, in both the aesthetics and the level designs.

Thank you both once again for your comments: it's all very useful stuff which will help to shape my future output. Above all, I'm glad that you seemed to enjoy the pack overall, and after some time since I released this pack I'm coming to regard it as a flawed but beautiful effort.

I've modified the suggested difficulty of this pack in response to your feedback, also. Having encountered a lot more custom content over the past few months, I'd have to agree that Lemminas is by no means a "hard" pack (apart from those levels, of course )

Many thanks!

WillLem

[kaywhyn]

Well, it is the final rank, what did you expect? I didn't want the entire pack to be a walkover, even though I was aiming for a more moderate level of difficulty. It's gratifying to see that the pack didn't give you too much trouble, generally.

It has to do with how I managed to get through every level of the pack with just one video while Pandemonium 9 took more than one more than anything. Especially since none of the other levels in the Pandemonium rank were too hard for me except that one.

Quite honestly, I think I both prefer, and find it easier, to remix existing levels rather than create totally new ones. If I already know a level's solution, I have more fun modifying it and giving it a new flavour than creating new puzzles totally from scratch. So, it makes sense that these would be the most interesting/challenging levels in the pack.

I totally understand! Certainly nothing wrong with taking an existing level and making a new puzzle out of it I kind of suspect that I might end up doing most of my levels that way if I ever get into level pack creation. I'm certainly no artist myself, and so creating new original levels will be quite difficult for me.

the player cannot possibly avoid it, and anybody that doesn't spend too long with the level paused at the start will discover what's going on very quickly. I've already modified this graphic as much as I'm going to. I do appreciate what you're saying, but I think there's only so much you can do when it comes to custom graphics: at some point, you have to draw the line between what you find visually pleasing as a creator, and what the player needs to know just by looking. Start the level, press play, see what happens - it's a motion-based video game, not a picture puzzle! Sorry for the abruptness here btw, this is just something I feel very strongly about! Whilst I have come round to the way of thinking that everything should be clear to a player at first glance where possible, there are certain things that can only be discovered by actually playing the game.

No worries, you weren't abrupt here. I'm not saying you should change the graphic for the object at all. It's just to me it looks like it can easily be mistaken for something animating in the background and cannot be interacted with. However, it is a fault of my own for planning out the solution in my mind before I let the level play out for a few seconds to see what happens. Also, it's another I need to familiarize myself with the objects of a tileset. After all, the more exposure of seeing the same object over and over, the more familiar it gets. Again, there's plenty of tilesets that I have yet to play levels in. In particular, there were a few contest entries from a few months ago that had that. IIRC, mantha16's R2 and Nessy's R3 levels were all in unfamiliar tilesets to me.

Another case of aesthetics vs. level clarity. Since this part of the level is never used (and is in fact impossible to use as part of any solution), I figured aesthetics ought to win. Another thing I'll watch out for in future, though - it's been noted already.

Then you need to watch my replay, since I do use that part of the level in my solution

I think this one's an example of my tendency towards execution difficulty making it into the game. I still like the level, but I can see why players might find it somewhat tiresome. I'd encourage you to just see levels like this as something a bit different that you can just play your way through.

I definitely have high respect for you for liking the challenge of execution. I don't mind them either, and I certainly like them to an extent, so I don't outright necessarily hate such levels so much. This particular level happens to be a type that I hate due to repeatedly spamming the same skill just to save lemmings you can't afford to lose over and over in a very short amount of time. That's the kind of level that gets boring and annoying to me very quickly. In other words, it's obvious what the solution is, the execution is difficult/fiddly.

[WillLem]

It has to do with how I managed to get through every level of the pack with just one video while Pandemonium 9 took more than one more than anything.

I haven't finished watching the LPs yet, it's definitely on my to-do list though. I'm looking forward to seeing how you got around to solving this one, and it's great that you filmed the entire process

I totally understand!... I kind of suspect that I might end up doing most of my levels that way if I ever get into level pack creation. I'm certainly no artist myself, and so creating new original levels will be quite difficult for me

Remix levels are a great way to get started with it. It's very inspiring and you'll likely end up finding that you modify a level to such an extent that it basically is a new level. At that point, change up the tileset and you've got yourself an original level!

Another idea is to simply put a map together totally instinctively - just go with whatever you feel is right, then give yourself tons of skills and solve the level. Then, reduce the skillset to whatever you used: instant puzzle! Granted, this isn't always the best way to make levels but it's another good way to get started.

Then you need to watch my replay, since I do use that part of the level in my solution

Duly noted, I'll watch out for that! And - again, in future I'll make sure the player can always see the terrain regardless of aesthetics. In fact, level 3 of WillLem's SUPERLEMMINGS has all the lizards set to No Overwrite for this exact reason, even though I think it looks daft when they're all behind the rocks

I definitely have high respect for you for liking the challenge of execution. I don't mind them either, and I certainly like them to an extent

Thanks

This particular level happens to be a type that I hate due to repeatedly spamming the same skill just to save lemmings you can't afford to lose over and over in a very short amount of time. That's the kind of level that gets boring and annoying to me very quickly. In other words, it's obvious what the solution is, the execution is difficult/fiddly.

Again, duly noted. I'll likely avoid this sort of thing in future

[Strato Incendus]

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're happy to edit the level and show me a replay of the solution you had in mind, I'd be more than happy to consider it for a sequel level (if you'd be happy for me to do that, of course)!

I don't like to mess around with other people's levels in the editor, so I thought I would just save a manual replay of the solution as far as it gets before failing.

But thanks to the truly excessive amount of Walkers you provided on this particular level, the crowd-control method can actually still lead to a working solution. Maybe this was even intended, because I unlocked another talisman with it. Although you really do have to many Walkers that most likely, the talisman can also be achieved without containing the crowd at the bottom.

Replay is attached.

[WillLem]

But thanks to the truly excessive amount of Walkers you provided on this particular level, the crowd-control method can actually still lead to a working solution. Maybe this was even intended, because I unlocked another talisman with it.

That is indeed one of the intended solutions! There is, however, a reason I deliberately didn't provide enough Stackers to play out the whole level like this...

Although you really do have to many Walkers that most likely, the talisman can also be achieved without containing the crowd at the bottom.

...and that's exactly it. The original level had only Walkers and Builders, with the idea being to juggle the crowd all the way to the top using only these skills, and create a safety bridge in the meantime. However, this just made for a level which even I thought was way too ridiculous, repetitive and spammy. So, I added Floaters and reduced the number of Walkers available, so that lems could float down and then meander their way back up the staircase.

The level existed in this version for pre-release testing, and feedback was uninanimous - the level sucked! So, I added enough Stackers to allow for easy crowd-control solutions, whilst still retaining some of the spirit of the original version of the level, i.e. it's still necessary to use Walkers to juggle the crowd some of the way.

In hindsight, the result is a level which is neither one thing nor the other: it's a fairly easy control-the-crowd/prepare-the-route level with a bit of execution-focused stuff at the end. It's very much an example of a level that I either should have just stuck with the original idea but maybe reined it in a bit, or scrapped it altogether. I only kept it in because I love the layout, and it has multiple possible solutions which made for somewhat interesting Talismans.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback. This is still a level I have a certain fondness for despite its obvious flaws, and I hope to create a much more interesting version of it for the sequel

[Proxima]

I solved all the levels and talismans.

[WillLem]

Brilliant stuff! Thanks Proxima. I'll go through your replays with Kaywhyn's and Strato's at some point. I'll look out for if you've set any new records as well. I'll likely make time for that sometime this week