[NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Difficulty: Medium] [1.06 UPDATE]

[Strato Incendus]

Nice job, Armani! That looks pretty much exactly like what I had suggested in the thread for new sprite ideas: black hair, red clothes, and a slightly darker skin tone than the standard white of default lemmings. So it seems like my "clichéd perception" wasn't too far off...

I like the addition of the long hair, though! That would require hand-crafting new sprites from scratch, obviously. The rest could be achieved by just using a recolouring scheme. But we can discuss the further details of that in the thread linked above.

Back to the topic of this thread:

@WillLem: I've played the first 11 levels yesterday evening, I'll upload my replays once I've completed the first rank. So far, I'm enjoying it a lot!

[WillLem]

The record for Falling Forever is now 13.82 seconds!

[namida]

Played some more...

Spoiler

Sensational 9 "Delaying The Inevitable" - Nice level!
Sensational 10 "The Strange Botique" - I suspect this is a backroute, seeing as there's a talisman for 3 walkers and I only used one. Side note, why is "1 disarmer" a talisman requirement when the level only gives 1 disarmer anyway? (Maybe it was meant to be no disarmers, although that's still pretty simple.)
Sensational 11 "The Refrigerator" - Why have you used overlapping entrances to create a misleading impression of how the lemminas will spawn, in a case where you could easily do the same with two work-as-normal entrances + a single preplaced lemmina? This is a particularly jarring case because other levels that have been misleading weren't particularly special levels anyway; but this one is otherwise a fairly good level.
Sensational 12 "Falling Forever" - While it's not as bad since you can still kind of see it, was it really necessary to hide the receiver behind the entrance instead of above or below it? More importantly though, you've completely hidden a second receiver by making it overlap the first. Also - it seems to me that the fastest time possible here is 13.82 (this is a pretty easy level to optimize for time), which means the talisman is very tight. In general - I'd say to cut back a bit on the time-related talismans, especially when most of them are just "do the normal solution as optimally as possible". Time limits are a feature that should be used sparingly; that doesn't change when talismans come into play. (Indeed, you've probably noticed I don't usually bother with the time limit talismans in this pack, but I've been getting - or at least trying - most of the skill limit ones.)
Sensational 13 "The Unnecesserially Tall Pillar" - Splat distance is 64 pixels. With some really good basher+miner trickery (ignoring, if relevant, that this then means you can't use the skills elsewhere), plus the builder, a particularly skilled player could likely shave maybe 25ish pixels off the fall. Therefore - this pillar doesn't need to be more than 90 ~ 100px tall (it would be a different case if the climbing was also serving to delay lemmings to allow another part of the solution, but that is not the case here). The pillar is in fact over four times this height. Given that every time something goes wrong in this level, this ridiculously long climb (and fall, where applicable) must be done over, I could not be bothered continuing to attemp this level and thus have not solved it. (If I'm missing something that actually makes the long climb / fall relevant, then here's the lesson to learn: By doing unnecessary stuff in other cases, you've lead players to assume the same is true here and thus not bothering to solve the level.) The icing on the cake here is - you are already aware of the flaw in this level's design, because you've given the level a title that references it.
Sensational 14 "Race To The Top!" - Looks like you made a slight mistake in the design near the exit. (At least, I hope it's a mistake. If that's intentional, it's yet another case of misleading design - and with unnecessary pixel precision on top of it.)

Sensational 15 and 16 both have more cases of misleading design (invisible objects / overlapped entrances respectively), so I have chosen not to play them for now - 16 more on principle than because the misleading design is a huge problem in that case.

My impression so far: You've got some very good level ideas here, and the music you've made for this pack is incredible, but this pack's quality is severely harmed by the frequency of elements that are designed to (or at least, very obviously have the effect of) mislead the player, or purely to add length to a level with no actual solution value (some padding can be good, but there are cases here - "Worra Lorra Lemminas" and "The Unnecesserially Tall Pillar" in particular - that are blatantly excessive). Unfortunately, I don't feel that I want to continue with this pack unless / until these issues are resolved. (But on the flipside - I definitely do hope these things do get fixed, because I would like to continue with this pack - as mentioned, there are some good ideas in here, they're just held back because it's never clear whether any given level will be fair or not.)

[IchoTolot]

Got around to resolving the Pandemonium rank. Replays attached.

[namida]

(Earlier post)

I must apologize about the comment about the entrances specifically - upon looking at the levels now, in the latter level, either a bug was causing the 1 not to be visible, or I completely overlooked it. It also doesn't help that the direction arrow obscures the 1 either... but what to do about that is a subject for another topic (which I'll open shortly).

In the former, it's hidden behind terrain. I'm fairly sure in this case it wasn't intentional, but there would be no harm in moving the entrance downwards a bit so it's visible.

I do still stand by the rest of what I said - but that includes the positive parts! You've definitely made some nice levels, it's just that there's a few not so great ones in there too - as well as some that are mostly good, but have certain details that could be improved.

Since that does leave nothing wrong with Sensational 16, it's only fair I at least solve that one. It's a pretty nice level!

[WillLem]

@Namida Thank you again for taking the time to play through the pack so far, and for offering suggestions to improve it. I really appreciate the feedback. Oh - and well done on the talisman solution for Escape From Crystal Mountain!

Response to Namida's Sensational 9-16 Comments

Sensational 10 "The Strange Botique" - I suspect this is a backroute, seeing as there's a talisman for 3 walkers and I only used one.

Ah yes - this is down to the way you used the Cloners. I'll add another pickup for 2 Cloners to fix this in V1.01. The 1 Disarmer talisman is a genuine mistake, I'll also fix this.

Sensational 11 "The Refrigerator" - Why have you used overlapping entrances?

As you've already realised - this level and 16 Escape From Crystal Mountain in fact do not feature overlapping entrances. I think it might be a bug that the number didn't appear above the entrances, but it is fixed by unchecking "No Overwrite" in the case of The Refrigerator. In the case of level 16, the number does appear but only after the directional arrow has vanished. I've attached screenshots to show that these levels do indeed only have the number of hatches shown, and nothing is overlapping.

Sensational 12 "Falling Forever" - While it's not as bad since you can still kind of see it, was it really necessary to hide the receiver behind the entrance instead of above or below it? More importantly though, you've completely hidden a second receiver by making it overlap the first.

I think I just wanted to keep the level tidy to be honest rather than having teleporters and receivers all over the place. I get your point though - overlapping the receiver with the entrance hatch could possibly be an issue, I'll address this in V1.01. With regards to overlapping the receivers, I'd say it does keep the layout of the level a bit neater and it's obvious to the player what's happening in this level so maybe this isn't too much of an issue? I will give this one some thought.

In general - I'd say to cut back a bit on the time-related talismans, especially when most of them are just "do the normal solution as optimally as possible".

We may have to agree to disagree on this one: I've already stopped using time limits as a result of community advice, but I really like solution-optimization as a style of play (it's something I'm particularly skilled at!) so I wouldn't like to see it disappear from Lemmings completely. Whilst some players are excellent puzzle-solvers, some of us are better at execution-based play, and time-based talismans is actually a nice little way of keeping it a part of the game whilst moving it to one side. It keeps the game satisfying for players who enjoy speed-solving and setting time records.

With that being said, I will look at using them less, or at least be a bit more creative about when I apply them to a level. This is a fair point.

Sensational 13 "The Unnecesserially Tall Pillar" - Splat distance is 64 pixels...Therefore - this pillar doesn't need to be more than 90 ~ 100px tall...The pillar is in fact over four times this height...I could not be bothered continuing to attemp this level and thus have not solved it.

Haha, OK. I've had my fun, I'll reduce the pillar size and make this a more inviting level to play in V1.01. The irony here is, though, that it was in fact you who came up with the solution for this level as it is now! I'm not sure if you remember... (your original replay won't work now because I have changed the design a bit to enforce the solution). If you look at the top of the level where the exit is, you'll see something you might recognise...

Sensational 14 "Race To The Top!" - Looks like you made a slight mistake in the design near the exit. (At least, I hope it's a mistake. If that's intentional, it's yet another case of misleading design - and with unnecessary pixel precision on top of it.)

No intention to mislead here at all, I assure you, your solution to this was indeed a backroute; the player is supposed to go for the Floater pickups to get down to the exit. I'll fix this in V1.01.

My impression so far: You've got some very good level ideas here, and the music you've made for this pack is incredible

Thank you for this comment! I am primarily a musician, it just so happens that I've found an outlet for it making Lemmings levels. I might make a full pack of tunes for people to use in their packs if I get more good feedback on the music.

this pack's quality is severely harmed by the frequency of elements that are designed to (or at least, very obviously have the effect of) mislead the player, or purely to add length to a level with no actual solution value ( "Worra Lorra Lemminas" and "The Unnecesserially Tall Pillar" in particular - that are blatantly excessive)... I definitely do hope these things do get fixed, because I would like to continue with this pack - as mentioned, there are some good ideas in here.

I assure you (and anyone reading this!) that there is no intention whatsoever to be misleading in this pack.

You have already retracted your comments regarding this which is great, thank you for that; but just in case it's an issue with NL or the Editor I have attached screenshots to show that I wasn't using overlapping entrances in the levels you mentioned. I think it's just because the numbers were obscured by terrain and/or directional helper arrows. I'd suggest that the number could maybe go the top left of the entrance hatch, and be made so that it's always visible in front of terrain or other objects.

Regarding the custom shimmery/sparkly teleporters: I will make it so that these have a different colour for IN and OUT in V1.01 so that this is made clearer.

Regarding hidden objects: I will discontinue this practice from here on, except in very particular cases (if I'm remixing Lost Something?, for example) or if I'm hiding pickup skills in Christmas prezzies (which is an acceptable bit of fun, I think!). And, I will of course make the existing hidden teleporters in Backroute To The Future fully visible in V1.01.

Regarding the Lemmina count/size of Worra Lorra Lemminas and The Unnecessarily Tall Pullar respectively: I will reduce the size of both of these levels again, and will reduce the number of Lemminas in the former.

Regarding the Wraparound levels: I have made it as clear as possible in both of these levels that Wrap effect is being simulated, and have used invisible teleporters merely as a tool to achieve this effect. I'm not convinced that this constitutes misleading design, as the visible effect is that the Lemmings walk out one side and come back in the other. I have designed the levels in such a way that the effect is obvious and expected, for instance using the gelato terrain on both sides in the first level, and by titling the levels "Wraparound", thus referring specifically to the effect. Nobody else who has played these levels so far has had a problem with this.

However, I want you to know that I value your advice and feedback and I would love for you to continue playing the pack, so for V1.01 I will add a fully visible custom object graphic for these levels which makes it clear that the player should expect this effect to happen.

V1.01 can be expected once I've received some more feedback from the Tricksy and Pandemonium ranks, as there will no doubt be stuff I'll have to fix in these as well. Off the top of my head, I don't think there are quite as many of these potentially problematic elements in these ranks - certainly no more hidden objects or invisible teleporters - so please do continue with the playthrough and I'll be sure to consider/implement any further advice that you provide.

[WillLem]

Comments on Armani's Pandemonium Solutions

Milkshake Party - well done on finding the method to get to the lower platform! You also managed to avoid the trap without needing to use the dolly dimple trick: I might fix this in V1.01, but maybe not...

Nightmare On Lem Street III - this was a joy to watch, making use of all the skills to contain the crowd and avoid the teleporters for a more direct solution. Nice!

Lemgate - this was technically a backroute, albeit one that required precision timing to pull off! You made it possible by getting the timing just right so that none of the lems got stuck in the teleporter loop - I'm impressed.

Cherry Cola Conundrum - nice use of builders along the digger tunnel to make the drop safe; this is a record time so far at 1:36.12 as a result of this method: might make it a talisman...

Falling Forever Part II - another backroute; can't believe I didn't think of this one! This is one I'll probably have to fix as it is quite obvious...!

Staircase To Nowhere Part III - marvellous achievement getting both talismans in one with this solution; this must have taken some doing!

With A Twist Of Lemmina Please - fantastic alternative solution, very well spotted - I'll leave this as it is. See if you can figure out the intended solution as well tho!

Save Us! - I've looked as closely as I can at this solution, and I can't figure out how you managed to stop the Lemminas from walking over the unfinished stackers...

All other solutions were either as intended or great alternatives. Thanks again for playing through the pack, I hope you enjoyed it!

Comments on IchoTolot's Pandemonium Solutions

Lemmina City Steel Facility - Intended! However, I'll need to tighten the time limit up on this again because it's still possible to not multitask that end section...

Milkshake Party - well done on finding the trick to get to the lower platform! You used the same method as Armani to avoid the trap: I might fix this because I'd prefer players to use the dolly dimple method, but this way is an acceptable enough alternative.

Nightmare On Lem Street III - great solution! Not sure if you can tell, but after your previous feedback I've layered up the teleporters to get the lems through quicker... (and I've done the same in Mary Poppins' Land II). Looks like I probs need to add another one to that left hand side though, still taking too long to get those ones through... Yes, I could lower the lem count, but I like the screen being full of Lemminas for this level, it adds to the chaos!

Rendezvous II - I might add some steel to the marble tower to prevent bashing straight through, but otherwise this solution is an acceptable alternative to the multitasking method (which the talisman encourages).

All other solutions were intended or great alternatives.

Thanks for playing through the Pandemonium rank, I hope you enjoyed these levels and they weren't too easy for you this time around! I'll make a couple of subtle changes here and there for V1.01 but nothing too drastic this time.

I could do with a bit more replays/feedback from Tricksy to see if any more fixes need to be made to this rank. If you get time, that'd be great. If not, no worries - your replays so far have been really helpful in tightening up Pandemonium, so thanks again.

[WillLem]

Just realised after watching Armani and IchoTolot's replays for the Pandemonium rank this morning that The Cherry Cola Conundrum is a great example of a level where a large number of lems is justified:

Spoiler

it prevents digging straight down to the exit.

[WillLem]

Quick question for anyone who's played this pack so far:

Do all the sprite recolourings work for you, in either/both resolutions?

i.e. The Lemminas' clothes should change from Carnation Pink/Wild Watermelon to:

Cornfield Yellow when they're in the cursor/being selected
Medium Spring Green when they're athletes
Lavender Purple when they're neutrals

...whilst the hair remains Electric Blue in all cases.

And the zombies should be:

Skin: Mantle Green
Clothes: Catalina Blue
Hair: Locust Grey

Let me know either way, many thanks!

[Armani]

Save Us! - I've looked as closely as I can at this solution, and I can't figure out how you managed to stop the Lemminas from walking over the unfinished stackers...

Assign first lemminas a stacker and then assign second lemminas a stacker at the exactly same position as the first one. Then Second lemminas will immediately turn around since she has no place to put down stacks

Quick question for anyone who's played this pack so far:

Do all the sprite recolourings work for you, in either/both resolutions?

i.e. The Lemminas' clothes should change from Carnation Pink/Wild Watermelon to:

Cornfield Yellow when they're in the cursor/being selected
Medium Spring Green when they're athletes
Lavender Purple when they're neutrals

...whilst the hair remains Electric Blue in all cases.

And the zombies should be:

Skin: Mantle Green
Clothes: Catalina Blue
Hair: Locust Grey

Yes all sprite recolourings work perfectly for me in both low/high resolution.

[namida]

Since WillLem has assured me the rest of the pack doesn't contain any more troll levels, I've continued a bit.

Spoiler

Tricksy 1 "Who's Doing What?" - Nice level, a lot better than the version I remember playing when you shared it on Discord a while back. I went back for the talisman on this one, but I've included a replay of my original solution too as it has a walker left over, so might be of interest (or possibly, a backroute).

Tricksy 2 "Lemmina PepsiCola Research Event" - I suggest making the chameleon in the bottom-left no-overwrite. This one clearly isn't an intentional case, but it's still ultimately an issue because without Clear Physics Mode, the player can't see how long this platform is. The first thing I tried, I needed to make a lemmina walk as far as possible that way before turning her back - while this wasn't so precise that I needed to see the exact length in my successful solution, it still shows that this kind of thing is important even when it doesn't matter for the intended route. Even without considering the time limit on it, I couldn't figure out the talisman on this one - it isn't a case of "I didn't try". This is ultimately a good level.

Tricksy 3 "The Milkshake Machine" - Heh, I thought I was outsmarting you by solving it without floaters, but I see that was the gold talisman. Very nice level here!

Tricksy 4 "Konbanwa Lemmina-san" - Not a bad level, but nothing special either IMO. Somewhat easy for this point.

Tricksy 5 "Lemmina Drops" - This level itself was pretty good, though also a bit easy. The talisman seems to mostly be just "do the intended solution but really precisely", though.

These seem pretty good so far. I'll continue tomorrow, most likely.

[namida]

Continuing on...

Tricksy 6 "Day Of The Daredevils! Part III" - Nice level, but whether you go for the talisman or not, turning around both lemminas at the end requires quite a lot of precision. This level wouldn't lose anything by reducing that a bit.

Tricksy 7 "Easy Peasy Lemmina Squeezy" - I might have backrouted this one, as I had a few skills left over, and one cloner was solely used to meet the save requirement.

Tricksy 8 "Stainless Steel Lemminas" - If this was intentional, I literally spotted this solution right away - far too easy for the rank as a whole, let alone level 8 in it. The gold talisman was a bit more fitting; in this case, I wonder if you'd be better off making the talisman solution into the normal solution instead...?

Tricksy 9 "Poor Wee Creaturettes" - This level wasn't really the greatest. Nice ideas, but in practice, a lot of precision was needed here too to make this actually work out. I'm not sure if this was the intended way though - it might not be, as while I didn't have skills left over, one cloner was used purely for save requirement purposes.

Tricksy 10 "Down The Rabbit Hole" - Not a bad level. Not sure if this is how you intended gold to be done, but it achieves it.

These continue to be pretty good levels. Some require a bit more precision than they probably need to - although this could be that I've just found really precise backroutes - but this is a much lesser concern than misleading elements, it's more a "nicer if it isn't required" thing than "avoid at all costs".

[namida]

And let's finish off Tricksy.

Spoiler

Tricksy 11 "Lemminas Recurring" - First thing to mention: You might want to take another look at the screen start position on this one (this is a very easy thing to overlook - I've done so countless times myself). This level was quite easy to solve once I spotted that the falls off the left of each platform are safe, but I don't have a clue how to do the talisman here.

Tricksy 12 "Soda Streams" - A huge step up in difficulty from the previous level (and for that matter, from the rest of the pack so far in general), but a great level!

Tricksy 13 "Nessy II" - While infinitely better than Orig's "Hunt The Nessy", I wasn't particularly a fan of this one. In general, open-ended + restrictive skillset + long level tends to be a frustrating combination IMO - although I'll note this is not objectively a bad level in any way, this is just my personal tastes here.

Tricksy 14 "No I In Team" - Another quite difficult one, but also another excellent level!

Tricksy 15 "Just a Second..." - While not a troll level as such, I'd also say this is an example of the kind of thing that should be done only as a standalone "for the sake of showing it can be done" level, rather than a serious level in a pack. And you put such a short level on a slot with the pack's best music track, too...!

Tricksy 16 "The Crystal Cobwebs of Mt Katie" - Is the name a reference to something? Anyway - I suggest modifying the level so that it's possible for all entrances that have the lemminas in immediate danger when they spawn can be seen on-screen at the same time without zooming out much. The back-and-forth scrolling to contain the various crowds at the start was somewhat annoying. Aside from that, this level wasn't bad but nothing special IMO.

Well, WillLem's statement that there's no more troll levels is holding true so far - there's a couple of levels that weren't to my personal taste, but nothing outright trollish. And there were definitely some great levels in here, too! Let's see if Pandemonium continues this pattern...

[namida]

Spoiler

Pandemonium 1 "Lemmina City Steel Facility" - Might be a backroute. If not - nice level, but the only purpose the time limit serves is forcing you to release the crowd ASAP, which is generally considered one of the strongest examples of how not to use time limits.

Pandemonium 2 "Milkshake Party" - Took me quite a while to solve this one, incredible level! Although this might be a backroute - I didn't use the climber, and only used the cloner to meet the save requirement.

Pandemonium 3 "Nightmare on Lem Street III" - This kind of level is just frustrating - same issues as Tricksy 16, but with much less spare time to secure many of the entrances, and RR99. Therefore, I've chosen to skip this one.

Pandemonium 4 "Lemgate" - Nice idea, but in practice it's a bit luck-dependent whether or not the timings actually work out, which can be a bit annoying - though not enough to overshadow the nice puzzle here. (Note: I have a newer version that WillLem has sent to me via Discord, rather than the version in the current release.)

[WillLem]

Response to Namida's Tricksy feedback

A lot of good comments here, very encouraging and helpful so thanks for that.

It's great that you seemed to enjoy this rank more than Sensational: I think it's probably the best rank in the pack, although Sensational has undergone some changes which I think have vastly improved it.

Most of your solutions to these levels were either intended or decent alternatives; one or two backroutes or backroute-ish elements which I'll of course fix in V1.01.

It's good that you found a few of these quite easy: the idea of the pack is for is to be fairly laid-back difficulty-wise, with the occasional puzzler thrown in here and there. I think for the most part I've achieved this, but I may still make a few tweaks here and there.

Tricksy 2 "Lemmina PepsiCola Research Event" - I suggest making the chameleon in the bottom-left no-overwrite.

Ah - the issue here is that the chameleon's body is a separate background object from the trap part of it; I've done this so that the chameleon can appear to be sitting astride the terrain rather than behind it, which I think looks a bit odd. The only way to achieve this (AFAIK) is to set the object to "only on terrain", which is what I've done. The trap part of it is, in fact, set to "no overwrite." If you know another way to achieve the same effect, please do let me know.

That said, for V1.01 I'll look at changing the layout slightly so that the chameleon is sitting on a different perch, so that the edge of the walkway can be clearly seen.

Tricksy 6 "Day Of The Daredevils! Part III" - Nice level, but whether you go for the talisman or not, turning around both lemminas at the end requires quite a lot of precision.

Agreed: I've added a button to make it clear that the cloner needs to happen at the start of the level and one lem needs to go up and shimmy across the top; I've also made this shimmy bar longer to give the builder lem more time: it still requires precision to get the gliders to use the star to turn, but there's nowhere near as much time-precision now.

Tricksy 9 "Poor Wee Creaturettes" ...I'm not sure if this was the intended way though - it might not be, as while I didn't have skills left over, one cloner was used purely for save requirement purposes.

This was actually a really good alternative solution to this level. I know it's a bit of a fiddly one, especially at the start, but I just love this level: it's an Orig favourite so a Lemminas version of it had to happen really. Is there anything you'd specifically suggest I change/improve?

Tricksy 10 "Down The Rabbit Hole" - Not a bad level. Not sure if this is how you intended gold to be done, but it achieves it.

I love your talisman solution to this: excellent!

These continue to be pretty good levels. Some require a bit more precision than they probably need to...

Really? I wouldn't have thought that precision is a problem... NL allows for precise actions and the community seems to enjoy pixel-precise-solution levels. Particularly yourself, actually: I've seen IchoTolot's replays for LP Alpha and those levels are infinitesimally precise!

Tricksy 11 "Lemminas Recurring" - First thing to mention: You might want to take another look at the screen start position on this one

I've moved the start position as far to the left as it will go... what do you suggest? Do I need to add some space to the left hand side of the level?

Tricksy 12 "Soda Streams" - A huge step up in difficulty... but a great level!
---
Tricksy 14 "No I In Team" - Another quite difficult one, but also another excellent level!

Glad you enjoyed these!

Tricksy 13 "Nessy II" - While infinitely better than Orig's "Hunt The Nessy", I wasn't particularly a fan of this one.

You backrouted this massively at the end, I'll have to fix that! I might add some extra skills to this level tho to make it a bit breezier.

Tricksy 15 "Just a Second..." ...And you put such a short level on a slot with the pack's best music track, too...!

Hmmmm I might consider replacing these. I do like them, tho... (its 'sequel' is Pandemonium 15). I might do a couple of mini-levels instead. I've had nothing but negative feedback so far for these ones. Maybe I'll save these for the inevitable ExperimentaLems which will no doubt happen at some point.

Tricksy 16 "The Crystal Cobwebs of Mt Katie" - Is the name a reference to something?

A close friend of mine used to have a goldfish called Katie - I thought it was hilarious, so I often name things "Katie" just for the fun of it.

Keep this feedback coming, it's really helpful. I've already made significant tweaks to make V1.01 a much-improved version of the pack.

If anyone else has any replays/comments, your feedback is encouraged and welcome.

All best,

WillLem