[DISC.][PLAYER] Jumper physics

[namida]

Thanks for the overview! In other words: You can't assign a Shimmier to a Hoister.

Based on that, would it be reasonable for the player to assume that they can assign a Jumper to a Hoister?

Counter-point: You can assign a Jumper, but not a Shimmier, to a climber. Hoister could be seen as primarily the "last few frames" of a climber's action.

However, a Hoister can also come from a non-climber now. I'd rather not make this dependent on "is the lemming a Climber or not"? - the "few extra pixels" case is essentially just "he climbs as normal, but he's already so close to the top that he hoists right away", so I don't see that as a problem in the same way as this.

[Strato Incendus]

Counter-point: You can assign a Jumper, but not a Shimmier, to a climber.

Of course you can assign a Shimmier to a Climber (that was kind of the point of this most important interaction)! Just not while he is hoisting...

However, a Hoister can also come from a non-climber now. I'd rather not make this dependent on "is the lemming a Climber or not"?

With that part I completely agree, since it's not visible to the player whether the lemming is hoisting as a Climber, Shimmier, or Jumper.

Of course, an athlete will have different colours, but those don't necessarily indicate a Climber. And as soon as a lemming as two or more permanent skills, i.e. is no longer just called "Climber" when hovering the mouse over him, the player actively needs to press ALT to see which skills he has.

Sure, usually players know what state a lemming just transitioned from - but I guess it would be technically possible to place a pre-placed Climber or Shimmier in such a position that he hoists right at the start of the level... and then the player wouldn't know...

Maybe now I'm being more puristic about the "everything-needs-to-be-visible-from-the-start puzzle philosophy" than anyone who's actually endorsing that philosophy... so feel free to accuse me of straw-manning this time ...

But consistency of behaviour is of course something we always strive for in general, so any type of Hoister should behave the same way in this regard, as you said.

[namida]

Of course you can assign a Shimmier to a Climber (that was kind of the point of this most important interaction)! Just not while he is hoisting...

Okay, I should rephrase that: "You can't freely assign a Shimmier to a Climber at any time".

But yeah, I'm more and more leaning towards "don't allow Hoister->Jumper" now.

[WillLem]

Regarding Hoister-to-Jumper transitions: If those are possible, I can already see WillLem create a pixel-precise level with a trap right at the top of a Climber's path, and a platform behind the Climber that you have to jump to, but the platform is placed at such a height that you can only reach it from the top of the wall (=where the trap is). In that case, you couldn't assign the Jumper while the lemming is still climbing (because he'd jump too low and miss the platform behind him), but you couldn't wait until he had finished climbing either, because then he'd go into the trap.

Whaaat? I wouldn't do that!

Haha, to be fair I do like a bit of pixel-precision, but not to the extent of making something that's impossible. Besides - if an impossible element is included in a level, it renders it unsolvable. I'm definitely not into making unsolvable levels, just want to clear that up right now!

Let's be careful about specifically accusing other users like that, especially when those users have shown that they're learning what is or isn't considered fair in a level and making efforts to improve

Thanks, Namida!

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to be an accusation - just something that would fit the level design philosophy he actively stated he enjoys personally, and thus, this would be completely fine in my book . I am aware he's actively trying to create levels that go along with the majority opinion in the NeoLemmix community.

Haha, that's OK. I do enjoy a bit of naughtiness when it comes to level-making, but ultimately - and I'm stating this here just to avoid any further misunderstandings of my level design philosophy - I like to include gimmicky elements (such as hidden/invisible stuff) now and again, sure; but I always want my levels to be fun, enjoyable and above all playable. Whether I'm using gimmicks or not, I always want to make sure that the the level is clearly laid out and easy to navigate. I always try to design with this in mind.

And just to state this here as well: from now on, my intention is generally going to be to make fair-puzzle levels, as per community preference. However, if I do get the urge to make some gimmicky (or, as I prefer to call it - "experimental") levels, I'll always label them as such and I won't be surprised if they only get played by one or two people!

My offer stands, Strato - if you fancy getting on Lemmicks 2 with me, let's do it!

[Strato Incendus]

My offer stands, Strato - if you fancy getting on Lemmicks 2 with me, let's do it!

What? I hadn't even heard of that offer! Sure, let's do this! There are still a lot of unexplored Gimmicks left (and some less-popular ones that we could drop this time, like Frenzy / SuperLemming / No Gravity... ).

Haha, to be fair I do like a bit of pixel-precision, but not to the extent of making something that's impossible. Besides - if an impossible element is included in a level, it renders it unsolvable. I'm definitely not into making unsolvable levels, just want to clear that up right now!

Oh, don't worry, I never claimed any of your levels were unsolvable, nor did I experience any of them as such. Just some very pixel-precise ones (I think the epitome of that was your modification of Mayhem 01, "Steel works", with the countless number of hatches).

But as I said in my previous post, I realised that there might indeed be some puzzle applications for Hoist-Jumping, and that it isn't going to be as pixel-precise as I initially feared, because it's not something that just works on a single frame, but the Hoister still takes a couple of frames.

So just to be clear, I don't object to Hoist-Jumping being possible. I just wanted to pose the question whether it would lead to more of a gain for puzzle design, or whether it would rather cause confusion.

[namida]

I've released an experimental build which supports the Jumper skill: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.0

[Proxima]

I'm reposting here a query I had in the Slider topic, since this is important to decide regardless of whether or not we get the Slider:

Should a Shimmier reaching the end of a ceiling have a one-frame window before they fall, in which they can jump?

[IchoTolot]

I'm reposting here a query I had in the Slider topic, since this is important to decide regardless of whether or not we get the Slider:

Should a Shimmier reaching the end of a ceiling have a one-frame window before they fall, in which they can jump?

I say no. It's unessesarily precise and in the usual cases result in a jump against a wall or another ceiling.

The parkour possibilities are already quite large for the jumper. I don't think we should overload them.

[namida]

I'm not in favor of that idea, though I'm willing to consider it if enough other people are. I'll put up a poll later.

[Strato Incendus]

Just to understand Proxima's suggestion clearly:

Do you suggest the Shimmier should be able to jump from the end of a ceiling across a gap, to hold on to a wall on the other side of said gap? I can see that being useful, it's just questionable whether it would make sense for a Shimmier to be able to do such a "swing" across a gap using only the strength of his arms, because he has no ground under his feet to jump from.

Or do you suggest this assignment should flip the Shimmier around the corner of the ceiling is already attached to, i.e. to then climb up at a 90 degree angle to the ceiling he shimmied along, like in the examples from Lemmings 2 I mentioned?


Anyways, thank you very, very much for the release candidate, namida! I'll check it out later this evening!

A very welcome surprise, now that many of us are stuck at home! Even though I can occupy myself by making music, Eurovision (the focus of my YouTube channel) has been cancelled, so the season kind of ended prematurely and it doesn't really make much sense to cover many more songs from this year. I originally thought I would get back to working on Lemmings Hall of Fame in May, when Eurovision would have been over and the Jumper is officially released. Now I can start a little earlier!

Of course, I know that I shouldn't rely too heavily on the way the Jumper behaves in a release candidate (rather than a stable version). But at least knowing things such as both Jumper-Climber and Climber-Jumper transitions both being the possible is already immensely valuable! If e.g. the exact width and height a Jumper can cover should still be modified, I have no issues adapting my levels to that later on.

[Proxima]

Neither; I'm just floating the idea to see if it's what people want, since I thought it should at least be considered. I agree with Icho that it wouldn't be good to add another, very precise, interaction. Using the Jumper to flip around a corner makes a lot more sense than doing do with a Slider, but it's still precise and a bit weird.

[Strato Incendus]

As much as I would like Shimmier going around corners, using Jumpers to do it sounds counterintuitive to me: When I try to assign a Jumper to a Shimmier, if it works at all, I would expect the lemming to perform a regular Jumper animation.

And that could e.g. be used if the Shimmier has reached a gap and needs to jump in order to get to the other side, where he can either climb or continue shimmying (since Jumpers should be able to transition into Shimmiers as well, like in L2, where the Shimmier performs a standard Jumper animation before grabbing the ceiling).

With the Slider, in contrast, I would expect a) turning around and b) dangling, both of which are required for transitioning from a Shimmier into a Climber.


EDIT: Copied from the post with the experimental release of the Jumper:

5) Another thing that didn't come to my mind until just now: How should Jumpers respond to splat pads?
Shimmiers die when failing to reach for a ceiling, because they transition back into a Faller.
Jumpers will obviously also die if a platform with a splat pad is 1 pixel lower than the platform they started jumping from, because they will transition to a Faller after the jumping arc is completed, and therefore splat.
But what about a Jumper landing straight on a splat pad at the end of or even earlier during his jump (e.g. when jumping onto a platform higher than the one he started from)?

Splat pads seem like a great way to make certain paths "Jumper-proof". We have a new skill, that means we also need to consider new potential backroutes.

I'm just not sure whether it would be counter-intuitive as far as mechanics are concerned, because the Jumper wouldn't transition into a Faller before hitting the splat pad and splatting. But they still "land on it", so that would make the player expect them to splat again...

Just for everyone's information: Currently, Jumpers don't splat when landing on a splat pad within the course of their arc (=meaning the only splat if they become a regular Faller after the jump).

[namida]

Splat pads do currently hinge specifically on the "faller" state, FWIW. A lemming that steps down a few pixels without becoming a faller, won't splat on a splat pad. A glider or floater will splat on a splat pad if they don't get enough time to pull out the respective tool first (but even the first frame of doing so, counts).

I'd like to keep consistency and base it on state. In other words, one of these two approaches:
a) If a Jumper lands on a splatpad, he splats.
or b) Jumpers ignore splatpads, and are only affected if they become a faller first before landing on it.

Between those two, I'm open to either. I like A a little bit more, but this is a very weak preference.

[WillLem]

I'd like to keep consistency and base it on state. In other words, one of these two approaches:
a) If a Jumper lands on a splatpad, he splats.

Do you mean before or after he's transitioned to a faller?

[Strato Incendus]

No, he means during the Jump, without ever being a Faller.

If we decide for A, what would happen if someone put a splat pad under a ceiling, and the Jumper bumped his head on that ceiling within the trigger area of the splat pad? Would he splat on the ceiling, as well?

The case for A would be that a Jumper can also transition into a Glider at the top of his curve - something that is usually also reserved for Fallers.

One could say "You can't have the upsides of being a Faller (=Glider transition possible) without having the downsides... ".

But then, some people might expect that fall height would be calculated from the top of a Jumper's arc as well, rather than from the point where he actually transitions back into a Faller...