[DISC.][PLAYER] Jumper physics

[Strato Incendus]

My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix.

Makes sense - Lix are female, after all, so on average they probably weigh less than a (supposedly male) Lemming.

Now that WillLem has added Lemminas, though, that point of "weight" is up for debate...

[WillLem]

It doesn't make any intuitive sense to me to get a transition into slider as a result of the jumper hitting the wall.  It kind of begs the question of why wouldn't a normal falling walking lemming that was falling off the same wall starting from the top (and therefore already facing the same direction, ie. away from the wall) also be able to slide.

I guess my point is essentially that jumping towards a wall is different from falling off a wall facing forwards, swimming into/building into/walking into/gliding into a wall (and any other action I may have forgotten about - the point remains that it's different!), and therefore merits a different physical response.

The response I've suggested is that the Lem should slide down the wall (which would be my preference simply for the sheer number of options and possibilities opened up by the idea as opposed to simply falling), but this doesn't seem to be a popular idea, and that's fine. If it at least gets trialled, that would be very gratifying even if the end result is a decision of "no".

If the jumper doesn't turn around at the wall it collides into, I can somewhat more come to terms with it doing a slide down the wall.  But with the turn around, doing a slider just seems very weird to me.

Yeah, exactly. Hence why I voted for the Lem staying faced towards the wall: I think I just really like the Slider idea! Not to worry, I'm aware I can't get all my ideas approved. Plenty more where this one came from!

Whatever decision is made, I'm still going to play NeoLemmix so it's all good.

[namida]

Okay - so, there seems to be a slight preference for "fall straight down" over "continue the jump in the opposite direction" after hitting a wall.

I've put a poll up to gauge interest in WillLem's slider idea. Based on the results, I'll decide whether I think an experimental to compare it is worthwhile or not.

[Strato Incendus]

Sliding after having turned around seems doubly unintuitive. Either the lemming doesn't turn around and slide down, but since we have already agreed he should turn around, then he should simply turn into a regular Faller looking into the opposite direction compared to his jump.

[namida]

Okay, so it definitely seems the Slider isn't popular as a default transition from Jumper. With that being said - Slider as its own standalone skill (which could then allow for a Jumper -> assigned Slider transition) is a completely seperate possibility that can be discussed in the final new skill topic.

I've put up a new poll now - yay or nay to wall-jumping?

As a reminder, here's a video showing this behaviour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc9TA_7SOh8

(If you want a video showing a lack of this behaviour, record a climber just climbing. )

[Strato Incendus]

Oh, wow, namida, I had no idea you were already that far in programming the Jumper!

I assume by wall-jumping, you mean the Climber's ability to jump off a wall, not to hold on to it after jumping? EDIT: Yes, you do, clarified by the poll!

I think it looks quite neat. This is pretty much exactly the type of behaviour people who were supporting a reflection of the Jumper's trajectory when bouncing off a wall were hoping for, I think?

Since regular Jumpers won't reflect their trajectory when hitting a wall, allowing Climbers to do it would be a nice compromise I think. It would limit the Jumper skill by itself a little, i.e. prevent it from becoming overpowered, while at the same time providing a nice interaction with an existing skill.

Also, giving Climbers this behaviour actually makes both Climbers and Jumpers much more useful than if only regular Jumpers had been able to bounce off walls. Because with Climbers, you can make this "jumping back and forth between two pillars / poles" cummulative! I think the puzzle ideas revolving around this concept alone are potentially endless!

So yes, please, please, please keep this wall-jumping behaviour!

[WillLem]

Also highly in favour of wall-Jumping, this video is ace!!

Could the parabolic arc of the Jumper be extended until the Lem reaches the floor or hits a wall? I understand it would still need to transition to Faller state after the initial jump arc, but perhaps the trajectory could continue...?

[Strato Incendus]

I understand it would still need to transition to Faller state after the initial jump arc, but perhaps the trajectory could continue...?

I'm pretty sure this would require tumbler physics, like in Lix or Lemmings 2. Fallers in NeoLemmix always move vertically.



Another question, I don't think this has come up yet:

Should updrafts affect Jumpers in any way?

This question is a novelty, because none of the other games that involve Jumpers (Lemmings 2, Lix, Pingus for Linux) have updrafts.

I guess the instinctive response would be "no", because
a) to my knowledge, you can't increase a Jumper's jump height in L2 by putting the fan underneath him (although this may just be a speed-of-execution problem)
b) the NeoLemmix Shimmier isn't affected by updrafts either, meaning he doesn't suddenly jump and "reach" higher when assigned inside an updraft

But since some people seem to like the Runner's ability to increase the distance a Jumper can cover... maybe giving him a special interaction with updrafts could serve to accomplish that?

This wouldn't affect the established behaviour of updrafts towards other skills in any way. It would be more of a thing "if a lemming is of the type 'Jumper' AND inside the trigger area of an updraft, THEN change the trajectory as follows..."

And it would also be easy to restrict these wider jumps in a level to places where the creator has placed updrafts, i.e. the lemming wouldn't start making wider jumps in general, like he would do when becoming a Runner.

[namida]

I assume by wall-jumping, you mean the Climber's ability to jump off a wall, not to hold on to it after jumping? EDIT: Yes, you do, clarified by the poll!

Yep. The other way around - Jumper -> (when hitting a wall) Climber - I've got the impression that there's basically no objection to this, and in fact the presence of this behaviour was one factor in my argument for the Jumper turning around when he hits a wall.

If I am wrong about there not being any objection to this, please do speak up - I do sometimes overlook / forget things.

And it would also be easy to restrict these wider jumps in a level to places where the creator has placed updrafts, i.e. the lemming wouldn't start making wider jumps in general, like he would do when becoming a Runner.

Wider jumps would be quite difficult to implement, so I hadn't really considered that. I was more just thinking that he gains more height during the upwards phase, and loses less during the downwards phase, thus while the horizontal movement is the same, he vertically ends up at a higher location than where he started.


Anyway, it seems like opinion is very much in favor of wall jumping being allowed - one "I'd have to try it out" and one "I don't care", with the rest of the votes so far being in favor, and none outright against it. While the vote count isn't quite as high as previous ones have been, I suspect it's high enough that it isn't going to turn around. Of course - the behaviour could still be removed if serious technical issues with it existing are found during testing. But as far as any opinion-based input goes, I think it's a solid "yes" on this one.

For the sake of simplicity, I'm making my own call regarding splat distance: It will measure from the end of the jump (unless the jump is interrupted early, at which point it counts from the point of interruption). This is simpler to code, and it's simpler for the player to understand (and especially, measure), even if it is slightly unrealistic.

I've put up a poll now regarding Jumper -> Glider timing. The two options I have presented are the only ones I am considering. If your thoughts is "I'd like to see it in action, but I don't necesserially feel the need to test it out myself", I'll put up a video later today (or failing that, over the weekend) showing the two possible behaviours in action, so in that case please hold your vote for now.

[namida]

As promised, here's a video showing the two options in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhh5eiJxL2I

(It seems voting is strongly in favor of "at the peak", but we'll leave that open for a little bit just in case the video changes anyone's mind - though I'll note I also prefer "at the peak" even having seen both in action.)

[namida]

So I came to this topic and saw no votes at all on the new poll... and then I realised I hadn't replied drawing attention to it.

So yeah - there's a new poll, regarding the jumper-glider updraft interaction.

As a reminder: The idea is that he'll keep the same horizontal path, but will gain more height during the upwards arc / lose less during the downwards, and thus finish the jump arc higher than he started it.

This is one I don't have super strong feelings either way about, and it isn't particularly huge amounts of extra effort to code thanks to how the Jumper is written so far, so which way the votes go is pretty much going to be the sole decider here (unless someone offers a really good logical argument for the other side, of course).

[Strato Incendus]

I voted vor updrafts increasing the jump height, along the lines of how winds increase jumps in jump-and-run games, like Speedy Eggbert.

Regarding the Glider-Jumper video, I'm impressed how you managed to include both types of behaviour in the same level! I guess you did this via a keyboard shortcut? Like "regular click = Jumper A, STRG + click = Jumper B"?

[namida]

Regarding the Glider-Jumper video, I'm impressed how you managed to include both types of behaviour in the same level! I guess you did this via a keyboard shortcut? Like "regular click = Jumper A, STRG + click = Jumper B"?

Nope - in the video, either "lemming is a swimmer" or "lemming is a disarmer" was the variable checked to change the jumper->glider behaviour. I forget which, which is why I assigned both to the lemming.

[WillLem]

Wow, I'm surprised the votes are so close; I thought interaction with updrafts would be pretty much a done deal! Might be worth seeing it in action if the votes remain equal, see if anyone is swayed either way.

Can we do a poll for double-jumps as well? i.e. If a Jumper is assigned to a Jumper mid-jump, it restarts the arc from lem's current position, allowing them to gain extra height and distance.

[namida]

Can we do a poll for double-jumps as well? i.e. If a Jumper is assigned to a Jumper mid-jump, it restarts the arc from lem's current position, allowing them to gain extra height and distance.

We'll see what (if anything) discussion of that idea suggests first. My two cents is that I don't think it's a good idea - while it'd be fun, it feels like one of those things that would become horribly prone to causing backroutes. Perhaps less so if there's a limit on it (eg. it's specifically limited to double jump, and the lemming must land after the 2nd before he can jump again), but even then it also could become very precision-dependent.

I'm not ruling the idea out though, at least not yet.