[DISC.][PLAYER] Jumper physics

[Strato Incendus]

To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!

In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?

Thanks, Proxima ! No better way of pointing out the flaws in that logic!

Thinking of ways lemmings can hurt themselves by doing stupid things, though - that would almost suggest a Jumper should splat on a wall when bumping against it before completing the arc of his curve . I know that's what can happen with the catapults in Lemmings 3D: There's one level (I think "Shadow Maze"?) where the catapult actually hurls the lemmings against a block, causing them to splat - and to prevent that, you have to bomb that piece of terrain away.

(Just to be clear: I'm not suggesting this is what should actually happen with Jumpers in NeoLemmix - it's just what this logic would imply... Especially considering the video IchoTolot linked to, of a guy jumping against a wall.)

[WillLem]

It make far more sense to me that they would grab onto the wall and slide down it; it could even be that climbers could be assigned at this point, and the lem starts climbing.

That would effectively introduce yet another L2 skill, the Slider. By itself, this would run counter to my expectations, though, because no other lemming falling 1 pixel next to a wall slides down on it; he just becomes a regular Faller.

As I imagine it, the Slider would be a temporary state as a result of having jumped towards the wall, not a skill. Similar to the "Reacher" state of the Shimmier skill, or the "Shrugger" state of any building skill.

No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.

To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!

In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?

Thanks, Proxima ! No better way of pointing out the flaws in that logic!

Actually, it's a slightly different situation: a Lemming walking towards fire could arguably be totally innocent as to what the fire is, and not be aware that it will kill them.

Also, Walkers and other skills can be assigned to make the Lemming avoid the fire. A Lemming that has jumped towards a wall must impact with the wall (it has already been discussed that no skill will cancel a Jumper mid-jump), and therefore interact with it (whether by sliding down it, bouncing off it, etc).

[namida]

I know that's what can happen with the catapults in Lemmings 3D: There's one level (I think "Shadow Maze"?) where the catapult actually hurls the lemmings against a block, causing them to splat - and to prevent that, you have to bomb that piece of terrain away.

Nope, Shadow Maze doesn't contain springs - it's the one with the three layers of maze-like block layouts, where each layer is slightly different to the one above it. You're thinking of Final Maze, the last level in the game, which does indeed have this setup - but this level is backroutable as hell so while most players probably spotted the spring that does this, I suspect few actually realise the block can be removed to let lemmings pass - though at least one solution that does involve removing the block to let lemmings pass exists.

No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.

Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the correction, namida! I already figured you would know the L3D levels by heart, at latest since you've created the editor.

No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.

Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).

Thanks, that was also my instant reaction to this claim.

Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall. Which, as it currently stands, is also in line with what the majority seems to favour...

[Proxima]

Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall. Which, as it currently stands, is also in line with what the majority seems to favour...

No, the majority favour the jumper turning round, but we haven't discussed or voted on whether the jumper should reflect its trajectory, or just fall straight down.

[Strato Incendus]

My bad, thanks for clarifying this, Proxima!

Maybe this should be the crucial difference then, between jumping against a regular wall and jumping into the trigger area of a Blocker or one-way field?

Blockers and one-way fields reflect the trajectories of every skill that runs into them, whereas walls and unaffectable terrain usually lead to the lemming turning around, but cancelling the skill in the process (like a "double-Walker" assignment, so to say ).

If a level designer then needs a certain wall to be able to reflect a Jumper's trajectory so that the lemming can do "Spider-Man jumps" from one wall to another, the level creator could simply put one-way fields on top of that wall, and those would cause the Jumper to behave in such a way. A wall not covered by one-way fields, in contrast, would then only result in turning the Jumper around before falling, but the fall would be a regular Faller motion, i.e. straight downward.

[namida]

While not a huge majority, it does seem the preference leans slightly towards that he should turn around, so - absent any very convincing argument that he shouldn't, it looks like that's what will happen.

Regarding whether he bounces off and continues jumping or not - I never seriously envisioned that he would. Currently, we don't have any case where an assigned skill turns around upon hitting a wall. On the other hand, we do have such cases for permanent skills - Glider and Swimmer both can do this - but obviously, Jumper is not a permanent skill, therefore, my thought would be it shouldn't. I've put up a poll for this now.

[WillLem]

I voted for maintain trajectory: this would satisfy the "jumper ought to interact with the wall in some way" idea, at least.

Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).

Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall.

And yes, Gliders! These guys don't just fall: they bounce off and continue. Thanks for the reminder, I kinda wish I'd remembered about this when I was struggling to make my point the other day.

[Proxima]

In Lix, a jumper hitting a wall bounces off it, whether she hits it on the upward or downward part of her arc, so you can have a look at Lix if you want to see this in action. Most of the time this won't make a huge impact on whether a solution concept can be made to work, but one case where it does make a noticeable difference is that if the lemming does bounce during his upward motion, this could be exploited to make him land on a ledge directly above his starting-point.

My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix. Lemmings bouncing off a wall doesn't really sit right with me, whereas I completely accept it for lix -- but that's a different game.

[IchoTolot]

My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix. Lemmings bouncing off a wall doesn't really sit right with me, whereas I completely accept it for lix -- but that's a different game.

I agree here.

After hitting a wall mid flight it just makes sense that he simply falls after the crash.

The glider is not a very good comparison in my opinion as he slowly glides into a wall instead of violently crashing into it.

[WillLem]

After hitting a wall mid flight it just makes sense that he simply falls after the crash.

The glider is not a very good comparison in my opinion as he slowly glides into a wall instead of violently crashing into it.

What if he's a particularly acrobatic lemming? He wouldn't fall: he'd likely push himself away or slide down the wall. I agree that the Glider isn't really a good comparison; in fact, my point all along has been that the jumper skill isn't really comparable with any of the other skills when it comes to jumping towards a wall.

Anyway, decision seems to have been made now that the lem will turn. At this point, although I'd like to see the Jumper respond to a wall acrobatically, if the final decision is that they fall then so be it. I'm sure we'll all still enjoy the new Jumper skill!

EDIT: How about a compromise (which I've provided a demo sprite for, see attached) - the Jumper lemming hits the wall and turns, but instead of entering a 'Faller' state, they slide down the wall facing away from it. During the 'Slider' state, an additional Jumper skill could be assigned which would make the lemming perform a wall-jump (it could even be that the Climber skill could be assigned during this state as well). As an added bonus, the 'Slider' state could also prevent splatting without the need to assign a Floater or a Glider - but this advantage would be unique to a Jumper-that-has-hit-a-wall.

Thoughts?

[namida]

^ I'm open to this if people are generally in favor of it, but I suspect this won't be the case.

[WillLem]

^ I'm open to this if people are generally in favor of it, but I suspect this won't be the case.

How difficult would it be to run a trial of the idea to see what the response is from seeing the proposed Slider state in action?

[ccexplore]

It doesn't make any intuitive sense to me to get a transition into slider as a result of the jumper hitting the wall.  It kind of begs the question of why wouldn't a normal falling walking lemming that was falling off the same wall starting from the top (and therefore already facing the same direction, ie. away from the wall) also be able to slide.

For reference, the slider skill in Lemmings 2 affects how a lemming walking off a ledge would behave.  Instead of walking into thin air and then fall down, they react to the ledge by turning around while hoisting itself down the wall via the ledge, and then they slide down the wall while facing it, with the animation showing the lemming's hands and feet touching the wall in a way that suggests the lemming is actively using the wall to control its descent.

If the jumper doesn't turn around at the wall it collides into, I can somewhat more come to terms with it doing a slide down the wall.  But with the turn around, doing a slider just seems very weird to me.

[Proxima]

Completely agree. The lemming entering a unique state that isn't part of normal gameplay is an unexpected result that would be confusing for new players. You say "what if he's a particularly acrobatic lemming?" but it's an unbreakable rule of the game that all lemmings are the same until skills are assigned. The L2 Slider is a possibility for the last skill, and if it's added then we could talk about the jumper transitioning directly into a slide (in fact, I think I would be in favour) but if it's a normal lemming then no.