[Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations

[Flopsy]

I'm wondering if there is a way to limit the usage of the shimmier like how a platformer is limited.

I just feel the shimmier is almost as broken as a walker when it comes to back routing levels.

1. It can stop bashers, miners, diggers, fencers, builders, platformers etc by jumping up in the air and obviously the actual shimmier animation will not be very useful in these instances. This is pretty much identical to what a walker does.

2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

3. I'm not even sure if this is supposed to be intended behaviour but a climber can become a shimmier before if hits its head on the ceiling, just want to clarify this also.

I would like there to be a check if there is a ceiling above the lemming when assigned a shimmier otherwise the shimmier cannot be assigned. It probably won't prevent number 1 from occurring but I know there will be more strange instances like number 2 otherwise.

I don't think the shimmier helps with level stability and keeping back routes at bay because people are simply using it as a jumping up in the air action and nothing else. It's surprisingly stronger than people think I feel.

[IchoTolot]

I must say, I am against this limitation.

Limiting the use of a skill severely several months after it's release instead of slight expansions to it's usefulness is also quite a shot in the back for a bunch of content created in the meantime relying on the bahaviors, even if I am personally not affected yet.

Just backroute potential is not a convincing argument for me personally as well. I rather have a more versitile skill like the walker as one that goes more into disarmer territory with it's limitations.

I rather be a bit more careful when designing levels with it and fix a few more backroutes.

2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

3. I'm not even sure if this is supposed to be intended behaviour but a climber can become a shimmier before if hits its head on the ceiling, just want to clarify this also.

Point 2 and 3 were intended behaviors that should make the skill more interesting - especially point 3 as it was also present in L2. They were discussed in topics as well.
Links:
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4079.0
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4000.0

1. It can stop bashers, miners, diggers, fencers, builders, platformers etc by jumping up in the air and obviously the actual shimmier animation will not be very useful in these instances. This is pretty much identical to what a walker does.

This is the point that holds up the most in my opinion. I am not for this change as I already stated, but canceling skills is the behavior I would limit first if I had to limit something.

The height gain used in point 2 and 3 is unique to the shimmier. the canceling from point 1 is shared with the walker.

[Proxima]

I agree with Icho, although I wanted to add something quickly.

I am sure I remember that there was a discussion specifically about the shimmier/glider interaction. Neither of Icho's links contains this. It would be useful for this topic if it could be found. (I've tried using the search feature, entering "shimmier glider" in the search box, but it hasn't located the topic I was looking for.)

[IchoTolot]

I am sure I remember that there was a discussion specifically about the shimmier/glider interaction. Neither of Icho's links contains this. It would be useful for this topic if it could be found. (I've tried using the search feature, entering "shimmier glider" in the search box, but it hasn't located the topic I was looking for.)

Bits from the 2nd topic:

Strato:
5) Will it be possible to (ab-)use the Shimmier merely for height gain, for example to get above an updraft and then assign a Glider?

Nepster:
5) This will most likely be a side-effect of how the reaching mechanics will be implemented.

Strato
The most important takeaway for me here is that I significantly overestimated the vertical reach of the Shimmier, and that I should really think of it more as "reaching" than jumping (after all, the jumper needs to have enough own dedicated purposes once it gets introduced later on, right? ).

Nepster:
Exactly!

There might be another topic though. These were just the 2 main ones I remembered.

[Proxima]

Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of the jumper/glider discussion.

[namida]

Yes, those are all intended behaviours. Another edge case, which I specifically checked with Nepster that it was intentional that this was possible. Spoiler tagged just to be safe.

Spoiler

If timed right, a shimmier can jump up just in front of a platformer (or, presumably, builder), who then places the next brick while the shimmier is above the bridge, thus meaning the shimmier lands on the bridge - without ever actually grabbing a ceiling.

Keep in mind that using a Shimmier in these ways is a tradeoff - if you do so, you can no longer use that Shimmier skill to actually shimmy.

But ultimately, I feel this is no more extreme than any other case of using a skill for its less-significant effects instead of its main one - for example, using a blocker to stop the individual lemming from moving, rather than to turn other lemmings around (like in certain solutions to Mayhem 13), or using a builder to delay a lemming rather than to actually build up to / over something. Some skills are more prone to causing backroutes than others (the Walker as you say, and others that particularly come to mind here are the Stoner and Builder, or in L3D's case, the Turner).

[Flopsy]

Each to their own I suppose but I don't really agree with not doing anything about it.

If people are really going to exploit the jumping animation to make messy solutions or back routes then just let them get on with it. At least I spoke up about this.

It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

[Crane]

I've personally used a couple of tricks with Shimmiers in order to solve some of the original levels with only new tools, and the trick to start a Glider higher up was also used as a pretty cool speedrunning technique in my solving contest level, "Last Lemming Standing".

As for the Shimmier not being able to cancel skills, I would feel that this is unexpected behaviour, since all other non-permanent skills will cancel the current skill to my knowledge (as long as it's not the same skill, while the Cloner just clones).

Spoiler

There is a trick where you can use a Shimmier/Glider combo to get a Lemming over a 7 or 8-pixel high wall, like that created by a Stacker - this one may fall into the same category of a Blocker reflecting a Digger where it's really not obvious or something you'd think to do... unless the skillset and arrangement in a level deliberately sets it up for you in some way.  Personally I think this is an advanced trick that one can discover through experimentation and accident, since you'll see the glider apparatus deploy before the Lemming lands.

[Proxima]

It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

In my opinion the NL platformer is badly designed compared to the Lix one, but it's been around for too long to change how it works now.

As Crane said, it's consistent across the board that active skills can be assigned at any time, with fairly common-sense exceptions such as that you can't assign most skills during falling. This is good because it means there's always feedback -- it would be confusing for a new player if trying to assign skills often resulted in no action. It also gives a lot more options to both the designer and the player. Imagine if the walker was the only skill you could assign to cancel another mid-skill; the designer would often have no choice but to provide several walkers, which would be heavily backroute-prone as they can easily be moved around to other places in the solution.

It's true that the shimmier's ability to cancel can also be used for backrouting, but I think allowing it is by far the lesser of two evils, even disregarding the effect on existing content.

[IchoTolot]

In my opinion the NL platformer is badly designed compared to the Lix one, but it's been around for too long to change how it works now.

I think the opposite way here. The NL platformer is the only platformer that is totally consequent about being horizontal with no height gain at all. The limitation is a requirement to ensure this as if there is no height gain it needs to be placed at ground level and a platformer assigned on a horizontal ground would then only build steps into the ground with no effect.
Therefore I think the NL platforer is the best designed one, but I remember this exact conversation being held before anyway.

But well, as we can see in this and other topics there is and will never be a 100% agreement over how the things are handled.

[Proxima]

I think the opposite way here. The NL platformer is the only platformer that is totally consequent about being horizontal with no height gain at all.

Sure, but you haven't said why you think this is a good thing I like the height gain because it's another useful tool in the designer's and player's arsenal, while not being too exploitable as it would take a lot of platformers (which usually you won't have) to get up somewhere you shouldn't be.

I don't mind that we don't agree on this; I'm just curious as to your reasoning.

[IchoTolot]

I simply think a platformer should go purely horizontal and not vertical, as then the builder can more easily replace it.

Also, it's very handful to have a skill from a designer's point of view that doesn not gain any height and just width. We've got stackers for pure height, platformers for pure width and builders for the middle ground. These 3 skills complement each other therefore and designers can exacty choose which to provide.

It's more easy for players in my opinion as well as there are no cases where you fiddle with platformers to gain height. They can count on the 3 skill triangle explained before: Pure height, pure width, diagonal.

Platformers gaining height is inconsequential here in my opinion.

Also my experience from Lix is that the height gain is very exploitable and I used it quite a bit to gain acess to unintended routes.

[ccexplore]

I'm a little late to this, but it feels like the level needs to make its intended usage of shimmier more essential to the solution so that it cannot be so easily bypassed.  After all, we are not talking about a mere jump or turn around like a jumper or walker, we are talking about the ability to go along the ceiling to get past things like gaps and traps you would otherwise have to build/bash/disarm/etc. to get past.  How is that if a player used the shimmier elsewhere for a skill cancel, the part that actually requires the essential use of shimmier can then be so easily bypassed?

In other words, seems like generally speaking, the shimmier should be less backroute-proned compared to a skill like walker.  If the player "wasted" a shimmier for skill-canceling or delay purposes, the consequence of then not being able to actually shimmy across a ceiling somewhere as intended by the solution, should be severe enough to prevent the player from solving the level.  Whereas it seems a bit more difficult to have it like that for a walker.

It is completely unavoidable that if you allow lemmings to attempt to shimmy at basically any time, there will be many more opportunities for player to use the skill for skill-canceling or delay purposes compared to the showcase use, simply because the showcase use requires specific terrain setup in the level to make it useful (or in some cases, even possible at all) to shimmy across a ceiling.  Whereas skill canceling or delaying can pretty much be done anywhere.  So one could consider limiting ability to assign shimmier for the skill-canceling cases (or more accurately, for cases where ceiling is not reachable), although at this point, you will also likely end up breaking many other existing levels that do rely on this behavior.

[ccexplore]

2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

You could probably prevent this by adding a hazard like fire or similar, that is high enough to not disturb walking lemmings but low enough to be hit by any lemming attempt to jump up.  Admittedly, it may look a little ugly, and in some cases may also not be possible to do if the placement interferes with other things in the level.

[Strato Incendus]

Using the jumps of Shimmiers as parts of solutions is what makes this skill so versatile!

For example, gaining height for Gliders via Shimmiers was a behaviour discussed long in advance of the introduction of the Shimmier (Anticipated Shimmier Behaviour), followed by an extensive testing phase that yielded no complaints about this behaviour.

As such, I don't see a reason why it should be changed now.