[Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations

namida · January 12, 2020, 11:25:17 PM

QuoteIt the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

FWIW, I feel this is an excellent point and the only reason to keep things the way they are for the Platformer is "because changing that detail now would likely be devastating to existing content in terms of introducing new backroutes, up to and including that some levels would not be possible to adjust for it". I'm quite confident that I would not apply this same restriction if I were creating an entirely new Lemmings clone now that also had a platformer (assuming, of course, that this clone wasn't intended specifically to replicate NeoLemmix).

Strato Incendus · January 13, 2020, 09:29:49 AM

I'm not so sure this comparison between Shimmier and Platformer holds up:

- The Platformer is not supposed to gain height. However, if it were possible to assign a Platformer while a lemming is walking on completely flat terrain, he would still gain 1 pixel of height. This could potentially be abused.

- The Shimmier, in contrast, is always supposed to gain height. And gaining height has always been used for various purposes, such as getting over an obstacle, breaking a fall etc. The same applies to cancelling skills: Any destructive skill can cancel a creative skill, any creative skill can cancel a destructive skill. In cases such as cancelling Bashers mid-swipe, this can already be done with both Walkers and Builders, so I don't see why the Shimmier would make it more broken. Rather, this is a general feature of NeoLemmix, allowing to time skill assignment in such a precise manner that mid-swipe Basher cancellation can actually become part of the intended solution. In most other Lemmings clones, this would usually be impossible to get right.

The Shimmier lacks two important features in comparison to the Walker that already serve to make it much less broken:
- Shimmiers can't turn lemmings around.
- Shimmiers can't cancel Blockers.

Especially the first of these two restrictions is one I like to build around in my levels: One of the few ways I know to use a Shimmier to turn a lemming around is by making him a Glider as well. Then, you need a wall that does not touch the ground. As a regular Walker, the lemming would continue to walk into the previous direction; however, if you make him a Shimmier, he will fall at the end, bumping against the wall as a Glider, and thus turn around.

As you can see, this requires a comparatively specific terrain shape.

namida · January 13, 2020, 05:44:31 PM

Quote- The Platformer is not supposed to gain height. However, if it were possible to assign a Platformer while a lemming is walking on completely flat terrain, he would still gain 1 pixel of height. This could potentially be abused.

Why would he gain 1 pixel of height? Were this assignment allowed (while keeping everything else about the Platformer as-is), he'd try to place a brick, hit terrain, turn around, not actually making any change to the terrain in the process (because every pixel that would've become brick, was already solid). No different to what currently happens if a platformer runs into terrain on the 2nd or 3rd or Xth brick; the only difference would be it can happen on the 1st brick too.

(In fact - it can already happen on the 1st brick, it's just really finnicky to set up. You have to have empty space when assigning the skill, that gets filled in between the assignment and the 1st brick being placed. I'm not aware of any level that requires this.)

ccexplore · January 13, 2020, 06:49:32 PM

I think what Strato meant was "if the platformer is more like Lix's or Lemming 2's", where the placement of the platform is always above the ground level.

Strato Incendus · January 13, 2020, 08:50:29 PM

Exactly - that would require the Platformer to always gain exactly 1 pixel in height. L2 Platformers actually gain more than that, IIRC, because the bricks definitely look thicker than Builder bricks. As such, they can comfortable cover up L2 trap triggers (even though those are usually indeed just one pixel in height).

WillLem · January 13, 2020, 09:55:00 PM

Quote from: Flopsy on January 12, 2020, 02:00:58 AM
It the Shimmier cannot be limited then why is the Platformer limited to when you can make a platformer bridge?

Whilst I agree with what everyone's saying about leaving the shimmier as it is (using it to gain height to then start a glider a bit higher is a trick I used a few times in Minim's New Skills Challenge in order to glide safely to a ledge which would otherwise be too high to land on), I totally agree with Flopsy on this point regarding platformers. Specifically, if they could be used in the same way as builders to stop bashers or diggers, there are times in new-skills-only levels where this would prove very useful in the absence of walkers, and it could also be used as a stopping skill which would add height to a digger pit, for instance.

Furthermore, it often seems like a Lemming has to be perfectly on the edge of a drop in order to begin platforming, which seems like a limitation of the skill. Maybe if this particular aspect of it was a touch more forgiving...?

I completely see that platforming into the floor is completely useless, but if it were at least possible, then the skill could be a) used to stop other skills such as basher or digger, and b) be started earlier than the very edge; I remember various times during Minim's challenge where I was on the edge of a drop and it seemed like I'd be able to platform off it, but then for some reason it wasn't possible and the Lemming fell off the edge. I can't remember specifically where this occurred, but I just remember it happening a few times and often needing to stack a couple of times so that I could platform from the stack.

Of course, I'm not sure what the implications of this would be for existing levels, but it could make the platformer that bit more useful.

IchoTolot · January 13, 2020, 10:15:26 PM

Quote
Of course, I'm not sure what the implications of this would be for existing levels, but it could make the platformer that bit more useful.

It's definitly too late for that kind of a change now. As namida stated if the skill would just be introduced now it would be good to discuss.

Now a large portion of levels with platformers would just outright break, with a large number possibly being unfixable as the every platformer could just be used as a walker at anytime -- that would also be the reason I would be against such a change even in a new engine as the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

WillLem · January 13, 2020, 11:04:07 PM

Quote from: IchoTolot on January 13, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

IchoTolot · January 13, 2020, 11:14:12 PM

Quote from: WillLem on January 13, 2020, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: IchoTolot on January 13, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

I would still simply say leave it as it be. The sideffects can still be quite large and unpredictable and the skill is already implemented for so long that just a ton of stuff is relying on exactly this implementation.
At some point further tinkering other than straight up bug fixing does just more harm than good and in this case the gain is rather small.

That's also why newer skills always had these huge topics where we discuss the exact implementation, then a experimental comes where the skill is still being changed and only after that an actual release happens. Then the behavior is considered stable so that actual content can rely on it.

WillLem · January 13, 2020, 11:38:40 PM

Quote from: IchoTolot on January 13, 2020, 11:14:12 PM
Quote from: WillLem on January 13, 2020, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: IchoTolot on January 13, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

I would still simply say leave it as it be. The sideffects can still be quite large and unpredictable and the skill is already implemented for so long that just a ton of stuff is relying on exactly this implementation.
At some point further tinkering other than straight up bug fixing does just more harm than good and in this case the gain is rather small.

That's also why newer skills always had these huge topics where we discuss the exact implementation, then a experimental comes where the skill is still being changed and only after that an actual release happens. Then the behavior is considered stable so that actual content can rely on it.

Good shout

For what it's worth, I love both the shimmier and the platformer. They're ace skills!

mobius · January 14, 2020, 01:45:41 AM

I believe in the beginning (before shimmiers were created in NL) I stated a possible suggestion that if there is no acceptable terrain above them for shimmying, they don't jump or take any action at all (like trying to mine on steel). I stand by this.

namida · January 14, 2020, 04:06:37 AM

Quote from: WillLem on January 13, 2020, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: IchoTolot on January 13, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
the platformer would then also cover a large chunk of the walkers job. Giving more and more usage to a skill can be a bad thing as it makes others more redundant, it's not all about making it as useful/powerful as possible.

To be honest, since posting I realised that walkers can do what I was suggesting anyway. How about the platformer "sensitivity", i.e. the position of the Lemming relative to the edge from which they are about to platform - there are definitely cases where it seems like they should be able to, but then the skill isn't assigned and they simply fall off. I wish I could find an example...

The same rule applies there as anywhere else - the platformer can only be assigned if at least one pixel of the initial brick's coverage, is currently non-solid.

However - any skill assignment that fails, NL memorizes it for about half a second (game-time) and if during that time it becomes possible to assign it, NL does so (unless it would conflict with another skill assignment - in which case the existing assignment has priority, but the memorized one will still try again on the next frame - or another skill is assigned to the same lemming, which would cancel the memorized assignment altogether). This should kick in with any platformer assigned too early near an edge.