It's time to work towards a "final" version.

[namida]

I've given some thought to this, and decided that - it's time to set a goal to reach a "final" NL version.

What this will mean - is that I want to get towards a version that will be a "This is it, no more new features are coming" version.

This doesn't mean NL dies at that point. People will, I presume, still continue to make new content - maybe even more so, as the "updates might break it" factor is no longer present. Style updates could continue to occur. There could even be bugfix updates if serious bugs are found that previously went undetected; just not feature updates or overall changes to how things work.

And of course, the possibility is there that someone else chooses to fork NeoLemmix into a new engine. It's open source, so people can do that.

But ultimately, there's three major factors that have gone into this decision:
1. I really do want to be able to focus on some of my own, completely-original projects. Often, when I could be doing that, I end up looking for something I can do on NL instead - now, I suspect this is less "NL is distracting me" and more "I'm using NL as an excuse to not start on such projects", but it's still one less excuse once NL is "finished".
2. "Update hell" has been a problem for some users. Some people have reported (and encountered bugs / compatibility issues as a result of) that they avoid upgrading until they absolutely have to; even though this could lead to subtle version differences that break content they try to play / make their content not work as intended for others.
3. NL has plenty of features already. Adding too many more could make things too complicated for newcomers.

I'm not going to promise every feature that's been discussed / proposed will happen before the "final" version arrives, although the Jumper skill will happen.

I don't know what version will end up being the "final" one at this point. At a bare minimum, it would be 12.9.X, as that's when I plan to add the Jumper, though I suspect a couple more versions beyond that for tidyup, a few last UI improvements, etc.

So, essentially, this topic isn't a "it's happening very soon", but rather, "this is now officially a goal, but it might be a while before we get there".

[Proxima]

I support this. We seem to be heading in this direction anyway, with most of the high-priority stuff already done or on its way. To the best of my knowledge, since the Shimmier two years ago, nothing new has come up and really caught our collective imagination -- there have been ideas floated around but nothing has stood out as a must-have. The big migration to new formats is done, and we don't need (and certainly don't want) another radical shake-up.

Maybe it would be worthwhile, at some point, to revisit the 2017 new feature poll or a similar poll. Many of the features from the old poll are implemented now: shimmiers, secondary animations, neutral lemmings, limited-quantity exits, maybe one or two more? So it would be interesting to see, of those that didn't get voted for in the previous poll, which ones didn't get votes because they weren't really wanted, as opposed to because people just wanted shimmiers et al. more.

(For myself, I feel that if we ran another poll, I'd vote for a 20th skill, mainly because 19 is such an odd number to end on. A non-permanent Slider, maybe. I would vote for inverse-gravity lemmings, but I know we're not going to get that )

[Minim]

I did have an idea for a terrain piece that I don't remember anyone thinking about. It's a tall ramp 16 pixels long that can be walked up without requiring skills. This is just a plain template draft, which is why the colours seem odd. If this idea is popular enough then we can make requests for people to add this template and the mirrored version (in the proper style) to their packs for a final version.

Anyway, as for a 20th skill, how about the Attractor? (It's already frequently used on L2)

[Proxima]

For reference, here's a link to previous discussion of adding other L2 skills to NeoLemmix.

There was also some discussion of this in the "General Suggestions Thread".

[namida]

I did have an idea for a terrain piece that I don't remember anyone thinking about. It's a tall ramp 16 pixels long that can be walked up without requiring skills. This is just a plain template draft, which is why the colours seem odd. If this idea is popular enough then we can make requests for people to add this template and the mirrored version (in the proper style) to their packs for a final version.

Nothing wrong with that piece from a physics point of view, but this isn't really the topic for it. NL itself being finalized, as mentioned, won't prevent future style updates; it could be added to a style at any time.

Anyway, as for a 20th skill, how about the Attractor? (It's already frequently used on L2)

I'm not sure the Attractor is different enough from the Blocker to make it worthwhile.

[JamesTCat]

Will lemming tribes be implemented? You know, custom skins that mixes with the regular Lemming groups in gameplay? Also, will the project support all L2 skills and Lix skills at some point when the project goes open source?

[mobius]

Will lemming tribes be implemented? You know, custom skins that mixes with the regular Lemming groups in gameplay? Also, will the project support all L2 skills and Lix skills at some point when the project goes open source?

The project already is (and I believe always has been) open source. The few amount of people working on it just demonstrates how few people have the skills and or motivation to do it.

The addition of jumper has been planned for a while now. But it most definitely won't support all L2 skills since many of them are considered bad for different reasons and adding new skills is a lot of work. Of course if anyone else starts working on it with a different agenda or motivation maybe we'll see more skills who knows. I'd love to see a few from L2/Lix like runner, slider, maybe some others...

[GigaLem]

The thing about a "Final" version is that, I would honestly think that such thing would still be a long ways away. There could feature ideas that nobody thought would come into being and there they are being added to a version update.
Like what skills outside of jumper are requested?
What bugs have yet to be fixed?
What object types that people still want to see?

I highly doubt 12.9 would be a final version even at the least. I think there could be room for features to come and we don't know what yet.
If anything, I think it would be time to do another feature poll, what would you like to see before features stopped being added?

[namida]

Will lemming tribes be implemented? You know, custom skins that mixes with the regular Lemming groups in gameplay? Also, will the project support all L2 skills and Lix skills at some point when the project goes open source?

No. Custom skins are possible, but only as a "all lemmings for this level" thing, not mixed within one level, and there are no plans to change that.

Likewise, not all skills will be supported. Some Lix skills primarily exist due to their usefulness in multiplayer, the Batter being the biggest example here - those would have little reason to replicate in NL. Others, we already have a very similar skill, even if it's not exactly the same, for example the Stoner as the NL counterpart to Lix's Cuber.

In L2, many of the skills are duplicates or near-duplicates of each other. NL has no reason to replicate such a setup. Some of the skills that don't fall under this are purely execution-focused, such as fan-based skills and Superlemming, and those kind of skills do not fit with NL's design principles. Even ignoring those points, there's simply too many of them.

The project already is (and I believe always has been) open source.

Not quite always; but it's been open source for a very long time now.

There could feature ideas that nobody thought would come into being and there they are being added to a version update.

Reaching a final version isn't about implementing, or even considering, every idea anyone can possibly think of. It's about deciding at some point "this is enough, this is going to be NL's final list of features, and no more additions will happen'.

Of course, as it's open-source, someone else could take over, either under the NeoLemmix name (if the community chooses to accept their new versions) or a fork under a new name, similar to how NeoLemmix itself forked from Lemmix.

Jumper is the only skill that's been given any serious consideration, and in the absence of some really significant unforeseen issue with implementing it and/or it turning out to not be very useful in practice, that one is going to go ahead. Some other ideas have been floated around, but most have been rejected; and all of those that haven't (except, again, the Jumper) are on the "this can be given further consideration but I'm not outright convinced yet" pile.

If anything, I think it would be time to do another feature poll, what would you like to see before features stopped being added?

It's not just about what features people would like to be added, it's also about what features - both in terms of individual features, and in terms of overall quantity (or rather, time spent) - that I'm willing to keep working on NL for. Though also, again - see point 3 in the original post too.

[Strato Incendus]

Just a late contribution to this on my part: Since other members already suggested this, I would also support the idea of a 20th skill to round out the panel. Knowing that it would be the final one, it should be as versatile as possible. The Laser Blaster / Twister as an upward Digger might not cut it, so maybe even something as potentially broken as the Roper (which would then mainly serve as a downward Builder).

But we already have to topic Proxima linked to to discuss that in detail, at the earliest occasion once the Jumper is fully implemented.

[namida]

It doesn't need to be "as versatile as possible". Ideally, it should achieve something current skills don't, but it doesn't have to achieve heaps of different things (though of course, it should be useful in several different situations). While this isn't a requirement, it wouldn't hurt for it to be fairly unique rather than just a variation on other existing skills.

[Proxima]

So I had an idea for the 20th skill. Like the Jumper, there are a couple of places where we could go one way or the other on certain behaviours and interactions, so I'll note these as possibilities when I come to them.

Freezer: The lemming freezes in place, and takes on an icy palette swap, until another skill is assigned. (Possibility: the frozen lemming acts as a steel block, so it can play a function similar to the Stoner, but without permanently losing the lemming.) (Possibility: the Freezer skill itself can be assigned to unfreeze the lemming, so it acts as a toggle.)

When another skill is assigned, the Freezer acts as if its current position is supported by terrain. This makes it possible to begin the action of a constructive or destructive skill in mid-air.

One issue is that it would be nice if a lemming could fall off the edge of a vertical wall, freeze halfway down, turn and start bashing the wall. But if the Walker skill turns a frozen lemming, it can't also have the effect of "unfreeze and continue facing the same way" -- and I expect the latter is how a new player would expect Freezer -> Walker to behave (especially considering consistency with Blocker -> Walker). Maybe, instead of my earlier "Freezer acts as a toggle" idea, assigning Freezer to a frozen lemming turns it while remaining frozen. But again, that would be awkward for new players to discover.

Still, I think this idea could be made to work. It certainly meets the criteria of "useful in several different situations" and "fairly unique"!

[GigaLem]

So I had an idea for the 20th skill. Like the Jumper, there are a couple of places where we could go one way or the other on certain behaviours and interactions, so I'll note these as possibilities when I come to them.

Freezer: The lemming freezes in place, and takes on an icy palette swap, until another skill is assigned. (Possibility: the frozen lemming acts as a steel block, so it can play a function similar to the Stoner, but without permanently losing the lemming.) (Possibility: the Freezer skill itself can be assigned to unfreeze the lemming, so it acts as a toggle.)

When another skill is assigned, the Freezer acts as if its current position is supported by terrain. This makes it possible to begin the action of a constructive or destructive skill in mid-air.

One issue is that it would be nice if a lemming could fall off the edge of a vertical wall, freeze halfway down, turn and start bashing the wall. But if the Walker skill turns a frozen lemming, it can't also have the effect of "unfreeze and continue facing the same way" -- and I expect the latter is how a new player would expect Freezer -> Walker to behave (especially considering consistency with Blocker -> Walker). Maybe, instead of my earlier "Freezer acts as a toggle" idea, assigning Freezer to a frozen lemming turns it while remaining frozen. But again, that would be awkward for new players to discover.

Still, I think this idea could be made to work. It certainly meets the criteria of "useful in several different situations" and "fairly unique"!

I think Idler would be a better name, but if skills had to stop being added I'd think 20 would be perfect way to round out the skill list.

There are many choices that'd be good for skill #20, my personal pick would a skill that digs straight upwards instead of diagonally upwards. (I'd call it something like Excavator)
There could be many choices but whatever the choice is, it's gotta count, I'd be fine with the one above or what ever gets picked.

[Strato Incendus]

Indeed I think the "upward Digger" has had more traction recently. There are various ways to go about this - using the L2 Twister, but only having him go straight up, much like the Shimmier also just jumps up vertically in NeoLemmix, rather than diagonally as in L2. Or we go for the Laser Blaster instead. Or we introduce the Magno Booter so that any skill can be used upside-down. Though that could also be accomplished by introducing Lemmings-Revolution-like gravity-reversal pads (i.e. a new object, not a new skill), which is something for which namida has stated his interest before.

Proxima's Freezer would be too similar to a Blocker / Stoner in my book. In fact, the purpose you suggest here is precisely the way many advanced levels use Blockers - to simply make a lemming stand still somewhere, which of course means another lemming has to free that guy later on, by removing the terrain under his feet or picking up a Walker pickup skill.

The Freezer would only add that he could be "freed" more easily, by simply assigning any skill to him. As such, I think this Freezer skill would most likely appear on easier levels - similarly to the Disarmer, which is often "too good" at disposing of traps, or also how Platformers can prevent the player from having to do advanced Builder shenanigans under low ceilings - but would not provide much use for advanced level design.

Either way, this is something we should probably discuss in the appropriate skill-suggestion threads.

I just want to state: If we agree that there is going to be a 20th skill to round out the panel for the final version of NeoLemmix, I would like to know whether it's going to be an entirely new one vs. another one from Lemmings 2: The Tribes.

If the latter is the case, I would postpone the development of Lemmings Hall of Fame (which is supposed to be L2 for NeoLemmix) even further, creating levels with the Jumper once it is implemented, but definitely saving some slots for this 20th skill, if it happens to be the Magno Booter, Laser Blaster, Roper or any other one of those. Even if the behaviour of that skill would be slightly different to how it acts in L2, it would still qualify as an L2 skill to me.

[WillLem]

Or we introduce the Magno Booter so that any skill can be used upside-down.

An upvote for this: if it could make the chosen Lem start walking on the ceiling and then perform a digger skill, we have our upward digger (and, effectively, downward builder) plus the fact that this skill would be useful for so much more.