[NeoLemmix] ArtLems

[Strato Incendus]

Why the heck were glider physics changed an a newer version of NeoLemmix? Didn't that change break a crud ton of levels across many packs? Seems rather unnecessary.

To prevent me from using Shimmiers/Reachers to have Gliders land on top of the stack they have just built.

No, of course not, but that was one of the side effects of that change.

I think the actual reason was an inconsistency, where Gliders would open their parachute slightly later in one situation than in others. And namida wanted to make that behaviour consistent.
If I remember correctly, they now open the parachute slightly later, which sometimes causes them to fall through updrafts that they could previously go up.

Thus, often the only fix that is required is to move the updraft area down 1-2 pixels.

In fact though, while I had some levels from Lemmings Open Air which used that Glider-Shimmier trick before, more levels actually broke in Lemmings World Tour (despite the absence of Shimmiers, just because of the Glider physics change). But only in New Formats, of course, so as long as you stick to the Old-Formats version, as you intended, none of your replays for that pack should be affected.

Funnily enough, other Glider-Shimmier / Glider-Reacher tricks are still possible, and my testers for Lemmings Open Air have even shown me their applicability in cases where I absolutely didn't intend such tricks to be used. (Even though, yes, some of the levels indeed had Glider-Reacher tricks as part of the intended solution from my side.)

[ericderkovits]

ok, good news. I resolved Colorful Arty's levels that he changed. So now I have completed version 1.1 of his Artlems

ok the levels I had to resolve were

Ancient rank

level 2
The Crypt of Ramses II
This level I resolved only for the Talisman, as Arty put a steel block near top left entrance thus breaking my v1.0 replay
This level is open-ended though, so it's an easy level, even to get the Talisman.

Medieval

Level 2 Under the Flood
Arty changed the level by removing the climber pickup and added the builder pickup. Thus the solution is a little different from v1.0.

level 9 Castle Crawl
Arty changed the level by adding a steel block at the top near the entrance. Thus breaking my v1.0 replay. Solution is a little different, but much more difficult.

level 10 The Secret of the Twin Falls
Arty put 2 thin blockades at each side near entrances thus breaking my v1.0 replay. Solution a little trickier. I knew my v1.0 of this level was a backroute.

level 14 The plague took us all
Arty added 1 more zombie guarding exit so it broke my v1.0 replay


Renaissance

level 1 By Land or Sea
Arty put the tree a little higher up on yellow terrain breaking my v1.0 replay


Baroque

level 2 Summer Sting
Arty made a slight terrain change breaking my v1.0 replay
Just had to tweak my v1.0 to work for v1.1

level 3 The Fall of Autumn
Arty added a steel block and a hanging Tarantula thus making level a little harder. Broke my v1.0 replay. New solution.


Neoclassical

level 1 Median meeting
Arty added downfacing OWW's on terrain near entrance and added a blockade near right hatch thus breaking my v1.0 replay. New solution.


Romantic

level 3 A Night on Lem Mountain
Arty made the 2 cloners pickup skills thus breaking my v1.0 replay. New solution. More difficult.


Modernist

level 2 Art's Abstraction
Arty made a slight change in terrain, thus breaking my v1.0. Still similiar solution.


level 4 Blue Badge of Honour

Arty added down-facing OWW's on top-middle block, thus breaking my v1.0 replay.
Solution somewhat different, but more difficult.

level 5 Hailfire Peaks
Arty just added a Talisman to the level (nothing else changed).
I got the Talisman. Version 1.0 replay still works, but just doesn't get the Talisman.

level 6 Circus of Chaos II
Arty put some hanging blockades left of exit, thus breaking my v1.0 replay.
I already solved this level afterwards even before Arty updated the pack as I wanted to get all the pickups, since I was unhappy with my 1st backrouted replay.

level 8 Flip-flop
Arty added steel, thus making level harder. Broke my v1.0 replay. Different solution.

level 9 Castle of frightful lucidity
Arty added right-facing OWW's on block near left-bottom hatch. Also made some small terrain changes. Broke my v1.0. replay.

level 10 The Last Straw
Arty added a thin vertical blockade right of hatch, breaking my v1.0 replay.


The other levels I don't see any changes in them as my replays work still.


So now I completed v1.1 of Artlems again on my own.

ok, here are my resolved level replays.

[ericderkovits]

hey Colorful Arty, I just noticed your Hailfire Peaks(modernist 5) was a contest level(number 11).
But I solved it before seeing Icho's solution on Youtube. I was just going thru some of Icho's old contest design levels, and this level came up in Part 6 of Design Contest Levels number 11
(your updated version which is in both 1.0 and 1.1 of your Artlems pack.) But I saw Icho's solution after I already solved it, so this Youtube view was after me beating the Artlems Pack(1.1)
resolved pack. And I didn't even know this level was a contest level.

Spoiler

  Icho played this level in contest Design contest 11 part 6(updated version that is in your Artlems(both 1.0 and 1.1) on youtube. He though used 2 miners saying it isn't possible to solve
level with only 1, but I did the trick using the blocker miner trick only using 1. also the basher blocker trick near exit I did. Also you even added the Talisman for the level saying Max use 1 miner,
which I obtained. Also I solved this level on my own, since I saw Icho's solution by pure accident, as I was watcting old contest levels and this was in number 11.

[Swerdis]

Hey, having finished PimoLems today, I want to start ArtLems next - as I announced before. There was a bit of confusion in this thread if all the levels within this pack are solvable in the latest version of Neolemmix. Can someone confirm this? Thanks.

[kaywhyn]

Hey, having finished PimoLems today, I want to start ArtLems next - as I announced before. There was a bit of confusion in this thread if all the levels within this pack are solvable in the latest version of Neolemmix. Can someone confirm this? Thanks.

Yes, the pack is confirmed to be 100% solvable on the latest version of NL, although there are two levels where the intended solution is broken due to the glider physics, Baroque 1 and Romantic 2. Instead, Armani found a completely different solution that doesn't use the glider for Baroque 1, meaning it's definitely a backroute, while I found an alternative solution that ends up using all the skills for Romantic 2 to get around how the glider doesn't properly glide into the exit from the left side. Other than taking a look at Romantic 2, I have not played any of the other levels in the pack. However, eric has played through and solved all of the pack. So, this means while the intended solutions for these two levels don't work due to the gliders not working as they should, they are still solvable. All other levels can be solved, and so even in the most recent NL the pack is 100% solvable.

However, you can simply play the pack in v12.8.2, where the glider does work properly on the two levels mentioned. In short, in v12.9 a change was made to the glider so that the glider opens his glide just slightly later than he does in v12.8. I have confirmed that the two levels relying on the glider are still broken in Arty's v1.1 of Artlems, meaning he apparently didn't fix the levels in the update, and so you should just play on v12.8.2 solely because of Baroque 1 and Romantic 2. The reason for this is to eliminate the trick of using a shimmier jump right in front of a fully built stack so that when it glides it will land on top of the stack. With the change, it's no longer possible to do so because the ever small delay in opening the glide up is enough to prevent it.

It's interesting that you're playing through Artlems next, because now that I have the next 3 LPs done, I am now going to be LPing Arty's pack Sublems

[ericderkovits]

Yes, Swerdis as Kaywhyn just mentioned these 2 levels are the only ones affected by the glider change, so I use 12.82 to play

I have already finished this pack including Arty's fixed levels(Version 1.1). although I still feel I backrouted some of his fixed ones.

Once you finish this pack, I will compare your solutions to mine. I know you use Youtube to show your solutions

[ericderkovits]

ok, Thanks Swerdis for starting your upload of Artlems on Youtube. So far the first 6 levels there. I will watch your solutions to compare to mine as you upload.

Just for your Info I got all the Talismans in the pack. I noticed you didn't get it on level 2 and 4 of Ancient.

I also notice you are using 12.10 for this pack. Maybe when you get to Baroque 1 and Romantic 2 you play these with 12.82 unless your ok with the new player

[Swerdis]

Hey,

yeah I started and like the pack so far. These first levels were easy of course, but not totally trivial. To be honest, I completely overlooked the talismans - this is nothing I normally put much emphasis on. But at least in this first rank I should probably try to catch up.

I always try to start new packs with the latest version. But are there any issues with 12.10 I'm not aware of?

[kaywhyn]

I always try to start new packs with the latest version. But are there any issues with 12.10 I'm not aware of?

No, other than the glider problem that causes the intended solution that relies on the glider to not work on Baroque 1 and Romantic 2. However, as was already stated, this pack is confirmed to be 100% possible despite the two levels being broken due to the glider physics in v12.9 and beyond. By playing v12.8, gliders work properly on those two levels, where on Baroque 1 the glider lands on the top platform properly, while on Romantic 2 the glider goes into the exit properly from the left side. The glider physics change results in gliders in some levels no longer being able to reach certain destinations that they were able to before due to the ever slight delay of opening up the glide later than usual. If you manage to solve Baroque 1 without the glider and find an alternative solution to Romantic 2 on v12.10, then you'll be fine playing on v12.10. When Arty released v1.1 of the pack, I thought he would had fixed these two levels due to the glider issue, but he apparently didn't when I tried them. 

[ericderkovits]

I've been watching swerdis's youtube solutions of Artlems on Youtube. He just finished the Medieval rank. some of these ones he is overcomplicating the solutions.

[Swerdis]

While this may be true, I think that the entire pack proves to be quite tricky so far. Much harder than Arty's other pack, SubLems, in my opinion. Thanks for watching, Eric.

[kaywhyn]

Overcomplicating solutions on hard levels isn't as uncommon as you think. It's quite common, and so it's not really necessary to say that Swerdis made some of them harder than they need to be. I myself apparently have a bad habit of doing it on difficult levels. When watching to compare, unless the author has gone to great lengths to enforce one very specific solution, expect solutions to be quite different from one another. Also, most of the levels we don't even know the intended solution, and so for the time being just be content with solving the levels in any way possible, regardless of whether the solution feels or seems hackish. Some might mostly be "get to the exit in any way possible" type of levels, even on ones with very restricted skillsets.

That being said, I'm not surprised about Artlems being harder than Sublems. Reading this kind of makes me excited about how well I will get on with the pack when I finally get around to playing it in the future. I myself found even Arty's Lost Pieces of rejected 12 levels pack hard. There were two levels in there that took me a while. The rest I remember not being too bad, although one other level near the end took a while as well.

[IchoTolot]

My solutions to everything including Baroque 1 via backroute and talismans.

I really liked the pack!   I think I got quite a few backroutes though.

There are a few things design related that I will just leave uncommentated as the pack has a very stylistic core. So I'll leave out the decorative things that sometimes made things a bit unclear in favor of the presentation (example would be the chimney in 4 04 as it's not that clear that it is harmless).

Comments on timer related isuues:

2 01 - Unnessesary timer
2 03 - Unnessesary timer
2 06 - Unnessesary timer

4 01 - Unnessesary timer
4 02 - Very unnessesary timer
4 03 - Unnessesary timer
4 04 - Extremely unnessesary timer

5 01 - Unnessesary timer
5 02 - Unnessesary timer

6 03 - Unnessesary timer

7 04 - Unnessesary timer
7 06 - Unnessesary timer
7 08 - Very unnessesary timer

So I would remove these timers. Otherwise it's just the case of the broken Baroque 1 and the backroutes.

[ericderkovits]

Glad to see Romantic 2 (Flight of the Bumblebee can still be solved without the glider issue). But when I solved this level, I did it in 12.82 since the lemming can't glide into the exit in the newer player versions). So I still think this level also needs a fix with the glider issue since I think that the lemming is supposed to glide into the exit-intended solution).

And yes Baroque 1 can only be backrouted (not possible in the newer player versions but will need a fix (does work in 12.82 with the glider-intended solution)
Icho's solution backroute is exactly the same as Armani's backroute.


And I totally agree with Icho, There are still many backroutes and unnecessary timers.

Also I would nominate "Flight of the Bumblebee" as a level of the year as I really like the level.



RE: Kaywhyn
Now that you see Icho really liked the pack, maybe you can now do this one too.

[kaywhyn]

Other people liking the pack has no bearing as to whether I play a pack. I already like the pack based on the screenshots in the OP, and with others saying this pack is great, I likely will like it even more once I do play through Artlems. It's already very hard to find packs or even levels that I don't really like anyway I have plans to eventually tackle every pack, and Artlems is certainly no exception. I just been really busy prioritizing my planned LPs of other packs, particularly those that are much older and working my way towards newer and more recent packs.