Revenge of the Lemmings (conversion to v12.7) community help appreciated :)

[Flopsy]

Sorry about the volume of feedback. I guess we didn't realise at the start how many issues would turn up with the current ordering, selection, backroutes and so forth

So I have an offer to make. If you, Crane and mobius agree, then I could take over the maintenance work from here on. I can't make any promises about when I would get things done, but keeping track of a volume of feedback and making decisions is something I can do, as I showed when I took charge of Lemmings Redux.

If I do end up taking charge, I would very much like to trim the least interesting levels, maybe getting down to 25 per rank. I think this is not a bad idea, considering the pack is so large at the moment, and there are several levels that feel like they don't really belong. I won't just remove any levels without consultation, though -- I would do what you just said, make a proposal for the ordering and selection one rank at a time and see whether there are any objections.

On the other hand, if you would rather continue as pack maintainer then I won't press the issue.

To be honest, when I said I would do this project I didn't anticipate it would be this much work. I don't get much time to work on Lemmings stuff at the best of times so this project as it is now is very overwhelming for me to continue.

I feel like because I wasn't involved with the original pack like you and Crane were, I think I am lacking the knowledge and intuition to truly make a proper go at working on this pack's "polished update". Considering that, I think it would be better to hand things over to you like you suggested because you seem to have way more time than me to give this pack the attention it needs.

You did do a very good job with Lemmings Redux and I believe you are still maintaining that pack on an ongoing basis.

I have no objection to the levels per rank shrinking to 25 if you were to take over anyway. We'll see what Crane thinks anyway.

I'll send everything mobius sent me onto you anyway Proxima, thanks for the offer.

[Proxima]

Feedback through Frenzy 17. The levels are getting harder and overall higher-quality, but that also means more backroutes are popping up.

[Crane]

I did patch Nemesis at some point, but I don't know where my files are.

Personally, I would like to keep the 30 levels per rating, being a traditionalist and this pack being traditional in a way, but with some trimming out of bad levels or fixing those with backroutes etc.

Just to note also... some levels in the Unsorted category are duplicates of other levels, just with a different name.

And as for the "Bet you can't save just one" level... the EXE file has a gold talisman for that one that challenges you to save three!

Regarding talismans, there was one I proposed with möbius once after the last version was released, and it partly justifies the placement of Duality at the end of Armageddon... complete with only 3 bashers.

ADDENDUM:

Spoiler

The backroute in The Underground Secret, if it doesn't use the Climbers or the Floater, is the intended solution!

[Crane]

With some advice from namida, I've uploaded some fixed versions of some levels.

- That Freezing Feeling: Builders reduced from 15 to 12, and time increased from 3:00 to 3:30
- A Bid Farewell: Middle wall changed to prevent a backroute, and time reduced from 4:00 to 3:30 to prevent another backroute.
- Spiralling Snowstorm: Some extra decoration, an extra steel block to prevent a minor backroute, and icicles on the roof to prevent "deadly ceiling" problems and to block a bigger backroute.
- Fill the Floor: Reverted back to its original design (we can't have new tools in this pack).

EDIT: See this post for the latest version of "A Bid Farewell".

[namida]

- Fill the Floor: Reverted back to its original design (we can't have new tools in this pack).

I'd definitely try to lean away from it, but sometimes, new mechanics must be used to keep a level working properly. I had to accept this on Psycho 6 "The Bulldozer" in LPI - it was either use an updraft, or get rid of the level altogether, as the original solution relied on direct drop.

[Crane]

In this case, nothing is really lost - the only difference is that the newer version has a platformer instead of a builder.  I'm not sure if the gap was wider to compensate as well, and it usually resulted in the platformer turning back, whereas that doesn't happen with the builder.

Thankfully none of the levels in this pack requires the use of a direct drop and doesn't use updrafts, switches, teleporters or the new tools.  Even vertically-scrolling levels are rare.  I think this pack was originally touted as a sequel to Oh No! More Lemmings in a way, and relies on traditional tools and older level designs.  There was some question behind the inclusion of 3 of my levels in Armageddon, "Prize Catch", "Overflow" and "JAILBREAK!, because they weren't released in previous patches, despite one being very old (well over 10 years old) and the other being an old contest level.

[Proxima]

Thankfully none of the levels in this pack requires the use of a direct drop and doesn't use updrafts, switches, teleporters or the new tools.  Even vertically-scrolling levels are rare.  I think this pack was originally touted as a sequel to Oh No! More Lemmings in a way, and relies on traditional tools and older level designs.  There was some question behind the inclusion of 3 of my levels in Armageddon, "Prize Catch", "Overflow" and "JAILBREAK!, because they weren't released in previous patches, despite one being very old (well over 10 years old) and the other being an old contest level.

Yes, I've been thinking about this too, especially regarding the question of finding a builder tutorial level to replace "Play Bridge", but also if we stick with 30 per rank, we may end up needing to find other levels to introduce. (I know we have the levels in the "Extra" rank available, but at the moment I'm only halfway through the pack and it's all guesswork as regards how many levels I would like to suggest cutting.)

I would like to consider RotL to be a "best-of" of the community's work from the pre-NeoLemmix days, and reject any new inclusions that were made later than October 2013 (the release of LPII, which marks the start of the transition from Lemmix to NL). "Prize Catch" is fine because it's from a contest run in March 2013 (and I believe three other levels from the same contest are also included, though my entry "Brute Fours" didn't make it).

That said, I'm not going to look at the levels already in the pack for release dates. I don't think anything is included that's really inappropriate.

Because Lemmix was the main engine before NeoLemmix, most of the levels are restricted to features available in Lemmix, but not all. My levels "Minesweeper Lemmings" and "Lemmings of Persia" were both made in Cheapo, and use custom graphics and vertical scrolling. I'm a bit unsure about their inclusion, but I guess it's okay as kind of an equivalent to original Lemmings' VGASPEC levels.

"Rounds and Swingabouts" also bothers me, aside from it being a level I didn't enjoy playing. I think it might be the only vertical-scrolling level in the original tilesets (unless there are more in the ranks I haven't gotten to yet). I don't know whether we want to consider that a problem, or let it slide.

[Crane]

If it comes to the worst, we can always make our own Builder tutorial... preferably from a later level so Picnic follows its theme of repeating its levels later on, like the original Fun.

In the meantime, here's the original Rounds and Swingabouts ripped from the EXE file (with some minor terrain changes to account for the deadly ceiling, and trap repositioning, since the electrode and the actual trap are now one object).  No vertical scrolling!

I agree with keeping only levels before 2013, and I want to keep the theme of no new skills or mechanics like updrafts.  I can confirm that JAILBREAK! was made before that date.  I can't remember if Overflow was or not though.

A couple of my other levels have been fixed over the years, but I'm not sure where my files are, so it may be a while to find the fixes (one level that I remember I had to do extensive fixing to was "Oil Refinery").

[Proxima]

Because Lemmix was the main engine before NeoLemmix, most of the levels are restricted to features available in Lemmix, but not all. My levels "Minesweeper Lemmings" and "Lemmings of Persia" were both made in Cheapo, and use custom graphics and vertical scrolling. I'm a bit unsure about their inclusion, but I guess it's okay as kind of an equivalent to original Lemmings' VGASPEC levels.

Bouncing on this idea: How about we try to have one special graphics level per rank? I think we almost have that already:

Picnic - Minesweeper Lemmings (Proxima) (Minesweeper tileset)
Hootenanny - Flugtag (Insane Steve) (SMB tileset)
Devious - Lemmings of Persia (Proxima) (Prince of Persia tileset)
Frenzy - Rainbow Road (Insane Steve) (SMB tileset)
Pain - ?
Carnage - Waltz in C Sharp Miner (Proxima) (Repeat of "Minesweeper Lemmings")
Armageddon - ?

For Armageddon, at the moment there is "The Top Shelf" in the Sports tileset, but it also has a Crystal version we could use. In any case, perhaps L2 tilesets don't count as "special". I would love to introduce "Ramico's Revenge" / "Bowser's Revenge", which is definitely a classic level from the Cheapo days, and we could easily import its remake from the ISteveWorld pack.

Not sure about Pain. It would be nice to have a special graphics level by another author, since the other six are all by me and Insane Steve. But if we can't think of anything, one possibility would be to remake the Repton tileset for NL (something I'd like to do anyway, but it is a lot of work) and use either "Toccata" or "Finale". (If you want to have a look at these levels, both are remade in the Lix community set).

Any thoughts?

[Crane]

I do like that idea of having only one special tileset per rating, akin to the original Lemmings.  For Armageddon, the only level that comes to mind is my own recent creation, "Dropship 12", which uses the L2 Space Tileset and only original tools and mechanics, but that would violate the 2013 rule, besides blowing my own trumpet again!

The other option is to have a look at some old contest levels... I remember there was one category where we had to make a level in a Lemmings Plus tileset (that's when I made my two Precarious Construction levels, but I personally wouldn't recommend either of them for Pain... part 1 is probably Frenzy difficulty, and part 2 is Carnage, I'd say).  I do remember one entry by someone that used a purple-coloured tileset that looked nice though.

[Crane]

I found the level and, with some difficulty and a lot of help from namida, got it converted!  The level is far more recent than I expected though, but I hope it makes for a nice stand-in for a custom-themed Pain level if there isn't a better one available.

[namida]

I found the level and, with some difficulty and a lot of help from namida, got it converted!  The level is far more recent than I expected though, but I hope it makes for a nice stand-in for a custom-themed Pain level if there isn't a better one available.

I'd definitely say too recent for Revenge of the Lemmings - but it'd be a good candidate for a sequel that focuses on newer levels.

I would note that Lemmings Plus I levels are definitely within the acceptable timeframe, so feel free to consider those. (Lemmings Plus II is a tricky case, lying right on the edge of it - but the use of custom graphic sets, which is a rarity in Revenge of the Lemmings, might push it towards going in the newer-levels pack.) A good start could be seeing what ones appear in Lemmings Plus Compressed, which is made up of the best levels from the Lemmings Plus series overall. Anything in Compressed that uses an official style other than Xmas, is from Lemmings Plus I.

For Pain specifically, "Bullet Lemming", "Die The Death Of The Damned" or "No Time To Die" could be a good candidate. Or else, while it's not in Compressed, "To The End!" could be a good candidate - the main reason it's not in Compressed is because a very similar concept level ("No Construction Zone" from LPII) is in there.

If you are using any of my levels, please keep the same music as plays on them in the actual packs - even in the case of packs that have a rotation rather than a set-per-level music. If you're specifically considering exact versions of the tracks, Master System for L1 tracks, DOS for OhNo tracks.

[IchoTolot]

I found the level and, with some difficulty and a lot of help from namida, got it converted!  The level is far more recent than I expected though, but I hope it makes for a nice stand-in for a custom-themed Pain level if there isn't a better one available.

I'd definitely say too recent for Revenge of the Lemmings - but it'd be a good candidate for a sequel that focuses on newer levels.

May I suggest posting/submitting finds like these here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4148.0

The NL Community pack still is in the gathering phase, especially after quite a part of the previously submitted levels are still not converted and resubmitted by their creators.

[Proxima]

I would note that Lemmings Plus I levels are definitely within the acceptable timeframe, so feel free to consider those.

Thank you. We will definitely consider those if we do end up needing to import further levels. I would also note that Mild 7 "The Staircase" could be used as a builder tutorial, if it's okay with you to change the skillset to 20 builders only.

However, at the moment it's all hypothetical -- I intend to first finish playing through the pack, and then I'll be in a much better position to decide about how many levels total, and how many from each difficulty, we need to remove and replace.

Regarding "Medusa": I think it's much more important to be strict about the cut-off date rather than to insist on one special graphics level per rank. One per rank is a nice idea (and a neat callback to original Lemmings) but not something we have to have. But if we start letting in newer levels, there are so many really good ones -- even within our restriction of levels using only the original 8 skills and original tilesets -- that it would seem unfair not to include them -- and we could easily end up doubling the size of the pack. Much better to keep RotL as a "best of up to 2013" and, as Icho said, submit later levels to the community pack. An idea I mentioned on Discord last night -- a compilation pack specifically of contest levels -- is also a possibility.

[Proxima]

I intend to first finish playing through the pack

And on that note, here's my feedback through the end of Frenzy. Crane reminded me on Discord last night that I haven't posted any replays yet, so I've attached a zip of all my RotL replays so far, including all solved levels through Frenzy and a couple of later levels I've looked at.