Revenge of the Lemmings (conversion to v12.7) community help appreciated :)

[Crane]

One thing you might find insightful is namida's playthrough of the pack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L2aDXG0VP0&list=PLVWvcY0oGEFzbrg5vKOjbwvKEFFn3mCm9

[Proxima]

(for an example where the harder solution is disguised, take a look at "Singularity" and its repeat in Armageddon, "Duality")

I think we shouldn't get too far ahead of ourselves in terms of looking at the later levels when the early ones still need attention, but since you brought it up, I had a look at Duality.

I'm not sure what you mean by "disguised"; it seems very straightforward.

[Crane]

What I meant in that regard is that, as a lower-level player on Singularity, you'd probably be tempted to build up the left hand side.  Even if you're more experienced, you probably wouldn't think to do Duality's beautiful sacrifice, mainly because of the number of tools you have.

[Proxima]

It was the very first thing that came to mind, precisely because you clearly don't have enough skills to go up the left side (It helped that the trick was fresh in my mind as I had played another level with the same trick last night -- "Coalburner" from Lemmings Plus I.)

[Proxima]

One thing you might find insightful is namida's playthrough of the pack:

Thank you for the link! That's extremely helpful (as well as fun to watch). I've watched the videos up to the point I've reached in playing (midway through Devious right now) and there are a few things I've noticed:

* Hootenanny 15 "A step too far" is not meant to have any builders, which would prevent Flopsy's build-up solution

* Devious 9 "The Thin Red Line (Colorblind)" should have 10 builders, not 6. While it's possible with 6, it's really precise and fiddly and I didn't enjoy it at all. With 10 it would be a bit more tolerable.

On a separate note, I had an idea for how Picnic 13 "Crystal Clear" (to use my preferred title) could justify remaining in the pack. You could change the skillset to 1 basher, 1 digger, so that it becomes a tutorial on increasing the release rate, which would kind of fit with the way the pack has not just the traditional skill tutorials but also some mechanics tutorials (one-way wall and directional select).

[Flopsy]

Ok I'm trying my best to keep up here, sorry for the delay in replying.

With regards to Training Zone Alpha/Omega, which would be recommended to keep? Or are we keeping both with Alpha as Crane suggested (100% and 10 of everything).

Similarly with Rounds and Swingabouts, I assume we are using the version which Crane posted as (Crane fix) and that will keep it where it currently is in Picnic?

I found "The Final Countdown" frustratingly difficult, it's just the kind of level where the most useful skills, you are always one skills short. No matter what plan I came up with, there was always a skill shortage somewhere. I did give it a good try but sadly I couldn't do it.

I'm with Proxima, we should keep away from the latter ranks for now, it's hard enough keeping track of 2 ranks without considering the whole pack.

I'm sorry if I'm very slow to reply and not saying much helpful stuff, feels like I'm really falling behind.
I'm purely acting as an adjudicator at this point because I don't feel like much help since I can't solve much past the 2nd and 3rd rank in this pack.

Would you like me to come up with a proposal for re-ordering the levels and post it here in the topic, based on all of the feedback by myself, Proxima and WillLem? I will obviously only do the first 2 ranks for now. Then at least we can work from there.

EDIT: This is all of the feedback I have collected which hints at movement or complete removal

PROXIMA

6. Play Bridge - WTF. Sure, it concentrates on builders, but this is NOT a builder tutorial level, it's about trapping
the crowd and it's not easy (especially with the tight save requirement). Move later.

11. Through Fire and Flames - Same level as in old version. I picked this out as one of the easiest levels, so this is a
good place for it. Fire pits need some decorative terrain as the gaps (due to the object's reduction in size) look odd.

13. It's a long, long way to fall! - This is "The Chopping Block" given the name of its repeat. Given how easy the early
levels of the new pack are, it feels less out of place, but it can definitely go if there's a better level to include.
If kept, rename to "Crystal Clear" (the name I gave it in GemLems).

17. Let's get to the bottom of this! - This is "Somewhere Under the Rainbow". I don't know why the title was changed
(because Nortaneous has a Lix level with the same title?) It belongs later (assuming a backroute-fixed version will be
used); getting down and building a landing platform is tougher than anything the player has had to do yet. I just noticed
that the terrain on the lower-left looks like it's covered by the water but isn't; I'll fix this.

2. Lemming in a Cone - Good level, but way too hard for 2-02. The correct route is not easy to spot without experience,
and builders need to be placed precisely. Maybe belongs later in rank 2, maybe higher.

3. Kung-Fu Bashing - This is all about the trick near the beginning; the rest is easy once that is done correctly. But
the trick makes this inappropriate for such an early placement.

4. Bat Country - The compilers really struggled with "What is a good early rank 2 level?", huh. Tight resources and
misdirection as to the correct route... it's a good level for later, but not here.

15. A step too far? - I think this is meant to be a tutorial on the digger-basher staircase, but as Flopsy pointed out,
it can be solved just by building up the side. Also, I don't think tutorials on tricks are appropriate for this pack,
which is meant to be a selection of the best of the community's work. (The Lix equivalent has cubers instead of blockers;
we could remove the blockers to prevent the up-the-side solution.)

17. The endless steps - Since this got repurposed as a miner tutorial (1-07), I would suggest removing the bomber version.
As Flopsy said, this is much easier with untimed bombers, but we don't want two versions of the level in the same rank.

18. Out on a Lem - This is very easy. Could be moved down to rank 1.

19. The Quiet Place - Nice minimalist puzzle. Pretty easy to spot the solution because there is not much available to
try; could fill one of the early slots in the rank if 2-02 to 2-05 move up.

22. A Long, Long Way to Fall - Remove "part 2" from the title. Tutorial on one miner releasing another. I don't like this.
(Could we maybe include this level's repeat from the Lix set, "Close to the Edge", in the pack? It dates from after RotL,
but it would allow this level's terrain to be used, since I am suggesting removing both existing repeats.)

24. Works on so many levels... - Neat study in the interplay between diggers and builders. Could be earlier in the rank
as it's fairly easy to solve. I would not increase the save requirement, as it's good that there is leeway to take
alternative routes or in case some lemmings slip by.

27. Crossing Paths - Great concept but it is not easy to spot the right places to bash and build. Move this one up.

28. Altitude Training - Nice use of multiple workers and making the player think about the limitations of having miners
but no bashers. It could come a bit earlier in the rank but I wouldn't move it down to rank 1.

WILLLEM

Level 7 Ups and Downs: Possibly a bit too difficult for the first rank as it requires keeping track of several miners at once across a large landscape. A good level though.

[Proxima]

I've attached my updated feedback document, with feedback through Devious 19. There is one new point that relates to ordering of the first two ranks: I had thought the gap at Hootenanny 26 was reserved for Lemmings of Persia, but after watching namida's videos, I realised that Hootenanny 26 is meant to be Flugtag, and Lemmings of Persia is Devious 18. I've added a note that Flugtag is a bit easy for late Hootenanny, and since we are struggling to find appropriate levels for the start of that rank, I've recommended placing it as 2-02.

I've rebuilt Lemmings of Persia using namida's video as a guide to the layout.

[Proxima]

Ok I'm trying my best to keep up here, sorry for the delay in replying.

With regards to Training Zone Alpha/Omega, which would be recommended to keep? Or are we keeping both with Alpha as Crane suggested (100% and 10 of everything).

Similarly with Rounds and Swingabouts, I assume we are using the version which Crane posted as (Crane fix) and that will keep it where it currently is in Picnic?

I think each version of the repeat pairs has to be considered separately on its own merits. If we end up with a gap in late Picnic that has to be filled, then by all means include the easier version of Rounds and Swingabouts there. If we end up with a gap in a later rank where the harder repeat would belong, then it can go there. Same thing with the Training Zone pair.

Sorry about the volume of feedback. I guess we didn't realise at the start how many issues would turn up with the current ordering, selection, backroutes and so forth

So I have an offer to make. If you, Crane and mobius agree, then I could take over the maintenance work from here on. I can't make any promises about when I would get things done, but keeping track of a volume of feedback and making decisions is something I can do, as I showed when I took charge of Lemmings Redux.

If I do end up taking charge, I would very much like to trim the least interesting levels, maybe getting down to 25 per rank. I think this is not a bad idea, considering the pack is so large at the moment, and there are several levels that feel like they don't really belong. I won't just remove any levels without consultation, though -- I would do what you just said, make a proposal for the ordering and selection one rank at a time and see whether there are any objections.

On the other hand, if you would rather continue as pack maintainer then I won't press the issue.

[Proxima]

Level files for Minesweeper Lemmings and its repeat, Waltz in C Sharp Miner. These require the Minesweeper graphics set.

For now, I've set the music for both levels to track 14 (Korobeiniki). This is the correct music for Minesweeper Lemmings. I recall there was a bit of a debate about which track to use for Waltz, and I can't remember what the outcome was.

[namida]

I recall the second version of Training Zone being a good level that stumped me for quite a while - and considering I don't remember most of the levels in this pack, I'd say it says something if one stands out to me like that just from hearing the name.

We had a bit of a confusion around the music on Discord, from WillLem. Assuming this is using the conversion I prepared from the EXE version, the music files should be placed in a "Revenge_of_the_Lemmings" (not case-sensitive) subfolder of the "music" folder. I posted a ZIP somewhere earlier in the topic that can be extracted to the base NL folder to achieve this.

[Crane]

Level files for Minesweeper Lemmings and its repeat, Waltz in C Sharp Miner. These require the Minesweeper graphics set.

For now, I've set the music for both levels to track 14 (Korobeiniki). This is the correct music for Minesweeper Lemmings. I recall there was a bit of a debate about which track to use for Waltz, and I can't remember what the outcome was.

In the EXE file, the Waltz level had Tetris B as the music.

[Proxima]

While I like the thematic pairing, I remember calling that out as being too annoying to have playing on a difficult puzzle level

[Crane]

Hah, yes, it is an annoying tune.  Maybe someone needs to make a mod version of this variant instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVDmjnCQ1g4&t=5m07s

Spoiler

Yes, those are Tesla Coils!

[namida]

I recall that music being one of the few times I actually felt the need to turn off the music (though I could be remembering wrong)... it should definitely be nuked to heck.

[Crane]

No, you remembered right, namida!