Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 6.10.2024.

[MASTER-88]

Damn i finally confirmed 100% saved SNES version. Its emulator video and used savestate and slowmotion. Thanks ccexplore with this easier video allow use climbers

100% Snes confirmed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yejbvn3yQd8

Okay im not think i´ll make this on console very soon. I have to increased my consistent a much. Just spending 2 days save stating here. At least 100% is proofed working on SNES. Im happy see this happen.

[ccexplore]

While I'm not completely out of ideas yet, for now I'd say not to waste more time on this level [Taxing 4].  If I do eventually find something that I've actually tested on SNES and shows promise there, I'll let you know.

I haven't tested anything on SNES, but you should know that for Taxing 4, I've finally managed to beat the former DOS record of 14 skills for Taxing 4 to 13 skills now.  See this post for the Lemmix replay for DOS.  Moreover, this is a completely different solution that completely avoids the spike traps on the left, instead it uses the sliding glitch to send one lemming up on the right side, then have him mine to help create a path for the other lemmings.  While there is no guarantee that the solution will work on SNES, I think it looks promising and is worth testing out.

Because on SNES the basher's stroke reaches one pixel farther than DOS, one change on SNES is you need to start the digger (and later the basher) one pixel more to the left compared to what you see in DOS replay.  The SNES miner is also different so you won't match the miners exactly as seen on DOS, but I think as long as you're close enough, that part should hopefully still work out for SNES, although we'll have to see whether the second miner is able to take out that chunk of the steel metal block on the right side of the level (the one just to the right of the "hangman" trap).

Timing will be very difficult because unfortunately, your success in triggering the glitch will also depend on the exact timing of when you assign basher to the digger near the start of the solution.  You'll have to watch the exact graphic of the digger animation to determine when to assign basher (I think it is maybe 5 or 6 steps [ie. "frames"] after digger takes out 9th row of pixels?).  I'll have to do some more testing to try to find an easier way that works on SNES, that is solely based on release rate changes and do not require you to also worry about exact timing of the basher assignment.  In the DOS replay, you just need to change release rate to 54 sometime after 8th lemming comes out and before 9th lemming comes out, but again that also assumes exact timing of the basher assignment.  The 34th lemming to come out will end up the one that gets slide up, which means you can also potentially try tweaking the release rate after 32nd lemming comes out, in order to make the 34th lemming approach the step at the perfect time to slide.

One other difficulty in the solution is to time the builder that will, while it is still building, potentially put some lemmings directly over the hangman trap.  You have to time it so that no lemmings will fall off the bridge during the short time the end of bridge is directly over the hitbox of the trap.  It's trial and error for me to find the right time to start building there in Lemmix, and unfortunately on SNES the timing for that will almost certainly be different (it won't ever exactly match what you see in the DOS Lemmix replay) due to various differences.  One thing you could consider is, since the current SNES record is 16 skills, you can consider spending an extra builder to build over the trap hitbox so no lemming can ever be harmed by it.  That would at least get you a 14-skill result, before you try to go for 13 skills without the safety afforded by that extra builder.

[MASTER-88]

About mayhem 2 100%. Yesterday spend 136 failed attempts and few hours on console. That was definitely my best attempts to reach 100% my real SNES system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tbnd4Sn-Bo

I still not undestand weirdness in this level and what i exactly do wrong?
This video use extra build gap method (44 gaps to left 3x12 +8). DOS replay use 43 gaps method. Its look both ways will  working, but its only will change some timings elsewhere level. I personally find 44 gap way more familar.

Its not matter why i still fuck up sliding glitch nearly all times nevertheless did i use 43 or 44 gap method . I am confirmed 43 & 44 gaps method will both work but just little bit different step timings at end, but its not seems requires timing slide glitch.

I still find this slide glitch extemely random. I guess i did some errors with starting level or end when i released crowd. But can´t see exactly what is going wrong. I think this will requires much more testing yet or hope perfect timing luck and lottery luck. Because rightnow its seems just hell fucking random consistent even emulator.

I haven't tested anything on SNES, but you should know that for Taxing 4, I've finally managed to beat the former DOS record of 14 skills for Taxing 4 to 13 skills now.  See this post for the Lemmix replay for DOS.  Moreover, this is a completely different solution that completely avoids the spike traps on the left, instead it uses the sliding glitch to send one lemming up on the right side, then have him mine to help create a path for the other lemmings.  While there is no guarantee that the solution will work on SNES, I think it looks promising and is worth testing out.

Great job. I´ll look this later and make my analyze how its might work on SNES. Probably when i bored mayhem 2 100% solution first. Rightnow my head will explode and brains will boiling when we talking about sliding glitch. I really hate that fucking trick.

[MASTER-88]

JES Mayhem 2 100% saved on real SNES system. I got also extra point which not nearly never happen

100% saved & 22 skills (10043 points). 15 hours emulator practice and nearly 200 recorded console attempts. I think i don´t want touch with this level anymore or at least very soon. Even its could be improvement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxYV7am66k0

I have to thanks you guys help me a lot. Especially very big thanks Ccexplore who find more SNES version apply strategy That was still incredible difficult.

Only change compared DOS i used 3x12 & 8 build strategy. DOS replay use 3x12 & 7 build strategy. Both ways working, but just have use different pixels building when you perform slide glitch.

EDIT:
Where i can find mayhem 10 2 were lost solution replay? Im not founded it then when i trying. Its might my next project.

EDIT 2

Improved Taxing 4 to 13 skills.  I finally found a way to efficiently trigger sliding glitch for profit here, as well as found a better way to do the mining at the top so that less builders are needed to complete the path to exit.

Thanks to MASTER-88 for indirectly inspiring this.  The failure to adapt the former 14-skill DOS record solution (by Clam) to SNES spurred me to take another look at trying to use sliding glitch again, which I had always been aware was a possibility, but until now could never find a way to do it efficiently enough skill-wise here to beat Clam's record.  Also thanks to LemSteven, whose handling of Tricky 28 for this challenge thread directly inspired me the idea to try something vaguely similar here, for the builder that would trigger the glitch.

I'll discuss adapting this solution to SNES on MASTER-88's thread, but it looks possible even if some details might have to change slightly.

Finally watch your replay. Thats look awesome. Yeah can´t say much without testing this but its will definitely requires one more builder on SNES because this goal bug doesn´t work on SNES version. Its like similar as mayhem 30. Otherwise this seems very potential looking strategy. 14-15 skills might be theory possible on SNES which both are better than my record. Depend how this miner will working. Its just different on SNES version of the game.

[ccexplore]

Good job! Honestly I don't remember whether anyone here actually ever tried executing a sliding glitch solution in any Lemmings levels on the real game.  I think everyone else had only done them in Lemmix, or in emulator for console versions, all with the help of savestates, framestepping, rewinds etc.  I've only tested the glitch itself on console emulators to verify the glitch works, not ever trying to execute a full solution in a real level.  You may be the first person in this forum to have successfully executed a real level solution using the glitch on the actual game, without any tool assists.

Where i can find mayhem 10 2 were lost solution replay? Im not founded it then when i trying. Its might my next project.

That one also uses sliding glitch, are you sure you want to deal with that now? At least for this level it all happens right at the start and you are only sliding 2 lemmings up.

As for missing replay, good question, looks like I actually can't find a copy of it on my current computer either, and the attachments may be lost on the old posts that first reported this result.  I might need to go look at old backups of my older computers to see if I can find either the replay or the screenshots to recreate it.  If anyone else can find a copy, please post.

I'd actually like to go look at this myself too, because I think we just took the originally reported DOS lose-2 solution (that doesn't care about skill counts) as the record, not sure we ever seriously review/audit the skill usage past the initial portion that uses the sliding glitch.  For all I know there could be some very obvious improvements lurking.

It needs to be mentioned that the timing/moves used on SNES to trigger the glitch for this level will be a bit different from DOS's, because the basher reaches one pixel farther on SNES compared to DOS, plus you can't change release rate while paused on SNES.  It's still the exact same skills used, but the release rate values and a few other details will differ, to the point that you cannot just copy the numbers from DOS solution.  I've tested the opening moves on SNES before and have written down the key release rate numbers for SNES somewhere, I really hope I can still find it.

(Taxing 4) Yeah can´t say much without testing this but its will definitely requires one more builder on SNES because this goal bug doesn´t work on SNES version. Its like similar as mayhem 30.

Actually it's different from Mayhem 30.  The hitbox of the exit is positioned in a way on DOS that (given where you can start mining nearby without using extra skills) actually doesn't work for that bug anyway, even on DOS.  Instead, the mining just barely misses the exit hitbox, resulting in a floor that misses the exit for both miner as well as walkers (unlike that bug, which lets walker exit while miner continues on).  Then later when you build in that area, the build bridge effectively raises the floor slightly upwards to barely meet the exit hitbox again, and so all the lemmings can then exit as a result.

If the SNES's exit hitbox reaches higher or lower compared to DOS, you may have to start mining earlier or later to compensate, but otherwise the solution does not rely on the "goal bug" and can hopefully work even on SNES without needing extra skills.  Though as you say, even 1 or 2 extra skills still beat the current record.

I've also played around with the solution a little more, and I've found ways to make it slightly less unforgiving (still very hard though) to execute:

- I've changed the use of blocker to instead use a builder to build over the hangman trap.  The advantage is that you don't have to worry about that trap anymore (ie. no more "I pray that no lemmings fall off the bridge while it's directly over the trap").  But doing it that way does create other complications elsewhere in the level unfortunately.

- The lemming that does the building to trigger sliding, as well as the lemming that gets slide up, are now both new lemmings coming out the entrance (30th and 34th respectively), and therefore the timing for triggering sliding is just a matter of release rate, and no longer also (as) sensitive to things like timing of skill assignment of basher, as like in the replay I posted.

It'll still be very difficult as almost every skill assignment must be done at exact locations, but less problematic than before.  Still untested though given the SNES miner differences.  I'll post a Lemmix replay later based on a slightly tweaked version of the level to better (but not perfectly, that's just impossible) imitate SNES version with its physics, to help show things like release rate changes and exact positions of various skill assignments as pertained to SNES.

I'll say definitely for first order of business for SNES, to test out the miners first on that level (just build normally through the spike traps on left to get a lemming up there so you can then test out the mining and building used in the sliding solution).

[Proxima]

Honestly I don't remember whether anyone here actually ever tried executing a sliding glitch solution in any Lemmings levels on the real game.

LemSteven got all his results in DOS Lemmings, and has even completed a playthrough of the entire game saving the maximum number.

As for missing replay, good question, looks like I actually can't find a copy of it on my current computer either, and the attachments may be lost on the old posts that first reported this result.  I might need to go look at old backups of my older computers to see if I can find either the replay or the screenshots to recreate it.  If anyone else can find a copy, please post.

This post has a replay. It's for the "what skills you need" challenge so it's focused on removing one blocker rather than full minimum-skills.

[ccexplore]

LemSteven got all his results in DOS Lemmings, and has even completed a playthrough of the entire game saving the maximum number.

Oh interesting, I know he only uses DOS Lemmings but I wasn't aware/didn't remember he ever did a playthrough of the entire game (and presumably doing so at a time after the sliding glitch solutions for Mayhem 2 and 10 are known).  Though now that you mentioned it I kinda feel like I remember reading about it before.

This post has a replay. It's for the "what skills you need" challenge so it's focused on removing one blocker rather than full minimum-skills.

I actually have that one but I strongly suspect it's not optimal for the total skill count.  I guess it's still good for the beginning portion of solution (other than the fact that it needs to be done differently on SNES due to physics differences).  In other words the replay would be same as the regular lose-2 DOS solution up to the point where a safe landing for the initial fall is ready.  I'm going to continue looking through my backups.

[ccexplore]

I actually have that one but I strongly suspect it's not optimal for the total skill count.

I finally found the original replay here (thanks geoo), though as it turns out, it actually isn't optimal for total skill count, the 1-blocker solution Proxima pointed out is apparently more optimal (by the saving of that one blocker).

The obvious thing to look at now for Mayhem 10, is to determine whether there's a way to set up the sliding + getting ready the safe landing in time, without using all 4 bashers in the process.  If we can save just one basher there, then we can explore routes that go through the ceiling, which will likely be more efficient skill-wise compared to all the building you'd have to do.  During the setup at the start, one basher is used purely for delay purpose, maybe it's worth seeing whether we can use the digger instead for that.

Again, note that on SNES the start had to be handled slightly differently compared to DOS.  I'm still searching for my notes on that.

[ccexplore]

If it turns out not possible to save one basher at the start, the other obvious area of improvement to explore would be to not do all that the building at the bottom of the initial area, it was only necessary because the original solution later led the lemmings down there.  The 1-blocker solution avoided that area but has inefficiencies stemming from the 1-blocker restriction, which we don't care for minimizing total skills count.  Just a quick look and I think I already see some simple potential new methods to test out, will try later tonight.

[MASTER-88]

Good job! Honestly I don't remember whether anyone here actually ever tried executing a sliding glitch solution in any Lemmings levels on the real game.  I think everyone else had only done them in Lemmix, or in emulator for console versions, all with the help of savestates, framestepping, rewinds etc.  I've only tested the glitch itself on console emulators to verify the glitch works, not ever trying to execute a full solution in a real level.  You may be the first person in this forum to have successfully executed a real level solution using the glitch on the actual game, without any tool assists.

Thanks. Im not sure am i first person. But at least this is only 100% youtube video with this level rightnow. And for sure there is no many persons in world who are making those max-% and max points solutions on console. At least youtube videos are usually normal solutions and completions. Richard Diaz aka lemmingsmaster did some real console youtube videos especially sunsoft special 2 100%, probably hardest challenge solutions ever done on lemmings. Contains 40 pixel perfect timings in one row.

That one also uses sliding glitch, are you sure you want to deal with that now? At least for this level it all happens right at the start and you are only sliding 2 lemmings up.

I think i´ll need recovery my brains, mind and my body couple days after mayhem 2 100% completion. But its quickly look all easy levels is max pointed and only sliding glitch levels are remain. So i have to be ready consistent my skills with sliding glitch.

I finally found the original replay here (thanks geoo), though as it turns out, it actually isn't optimal for total skill count, the 1-blocker solution Proxima pointed out is apparently more optimal (by the saving of that one blocker).

The obvious thing to look at now for Mayhem 10, is to determine whether there's a way to set up the sliding + getting ready the safe landing in time, without using all 4 bashers in the process.  If we can save just one basher there, then we can explore routes that go through the ceiling, which will likely be more efficient skill-wise compared to all the building you'd have to do.  During the setup at the start, one basher is used purely for delay purpose, maybe it's worth seeing whether we can use the digger instead for that.

Again, note that on SNES the start had to be handled slightly differently compared to DOS.  I'm still searching for my notes on that.

Thanks you got find this replay. Just quickly watch this replay and its look pretty damn hard and really quick reflex required. I have to looking its more better before i start attempts.

Again, note that on SNES the start had to be handled slightly differently compared to DOS.  I'm still searching for my notes on that

What you mean about this when you talking about its will bit different on SNES than DOS. I´ll definitely need more information with this if this level requires some version differences?

[ccexplore]

Again, note that on SNES the start had to be handled slightly differently compared to DOS.  I'm still searching for my notes on that

What you mean about this when you talking about its will bit different on SNES than DOS. I'll definitely need more information with this if this level requires some version differences?

Specifically the following differences:

1) The SNES basher reaches one pixel farther, so in order to create the 1-pixel dent at the thin vertical column as seen in the DOS replay, on SNES you have to start the basher one pixel more to the left compared to DOS.  This in turn will cause the lemming to lay 3 bricks instead of 2 when you assign him builder after the dent is created.  As a result it throws off the timing of various things, and you need to adjust the release rate changes accordingly to compensate.

2) The DOS replay has a sharp release rate change from 3 to 47 after first lemming out, followed by 47 back down to 1 after second lemming out.  The first change is barely doable on SNES but the second change definitely is not doable on SNES (because the third lemming comes out much sooner after second lemming, due to the release rate having changed to 47).

When I tested on SNES years ago, I believe I ended up with a different method (for setting up sliding glitch) that wound up looking vaguely similar to this replay I just posted last night (an improvement to the former DOS record), although I don't think I used a digger on SNES (but I guess you could if you want), I seem to remember I still used basher for delay purpose.  The important thing is having more attainable release rate changes for SNES.

I too could use a break.  I'll continue try to finding you the correct numbers/timings to use on SNES, but maybe only after the weekend is over.

But its quickly look all easy levels is max pointed and only sliding glitch levels are remain. So i have to be ready consistent my skills with sliding glitch.

Mayhem 10 and Taxing 4 are the only two levels left where the current DOS record uses sliding glitch.  Sliding glitch had also been explored previously for Taxing 27 and Mayhem 26, but in both cases failed (so far) to produce a better record in terms of fewest total skills used to save most lemmings.  But there were also a few levels here and there where I still need to test out adopting parts of DOS solutions to SNES, I have to go back to the post I made for comparing SNES and DOS.  But it's fair to say there is likely nothing easy left at this point, sliding glitch or no.

[MASTER-88]

mproved Mayhem 10 to 29 skills.  This may be the first time we've looked at this level specifically for this challenge, as opposed to just taking an existing solution from one of the other challenges.

One obvious thing to explore is ceiling route, but that turns out actually not great, the shape of the ceiling really works against you forcing you to use more builders than you'd like, plus it also costs a lot of builders to set up, at the upper area only, a holding system for the crowd--especially since the ceiling route takes up a basher, so you don't even have enough leftover skills to use 2 blockers (and still be able to free them both), you can only use 1 blocker.  My testing seems to show that any ceiling route solution would end up using either all builders or at best maybe 1 less than all.

So instead, the improved solution here is yet another floor route building to the right exit, like the other two lose-2 solutions previously presented.

I'm still wondering whether maybe it's worth trying to use sliding glitch twice, the second time to slide the crowd up from bottom of the exit-holding pillar.  From the one-blocker solution, we know there's one natural place that can be easily used to compress the crowd without using a second blocker (that you won't have enough skills left to free).  But it takes multiple builders to later release the crowd from that location, which may well cancel out trying to use less builders by using sliding glitch.

This new route is a lot better than old, but its still seems those releaserate changes are too much and its register some little bit wrong.  So i think we have to modify some things on SNES version where you can´t change releaserate when you are paused.

However this is still very close one. If we can succesfully modify some things its might are possible make perfect slide glitch.

Its extremely complicated, because many things happen in same time. Basher, builder, floater and then drop releaserate 24 to 1. Its seems 3rd lemmings come out higher than 1 releaserate and thats is enought ruin slideglitch.

EDIT:
Couple other difference is here too.
1: Because you have to bash and build one pixel too left than DOS version its will requires 3 build brick until its turn lemmings. (DOS version its build two ones and turn
2: Also this digger will not turn left to right when you take it.  Looking DOS video this digger just turn when it hit the metal of bottom. Thats not happen on SNES.

So this look we have to look many things and changes some more SNES version apply. Testing slide glitch with one lemming only and its working well.

[MASTER-88]

Testing taxing 4 DOS route my SNES emulator. Its really seems this miner working quite well like DOS. Also goal bug working well in this level. Its doesn´t work mayhem 30

I did couple videos
Miner pixel 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUxcwJtLRTw
Miner pixel 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1DKzzh8vSc
Goal bug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_UPrU3zYBw

But otherwise we probably have plan this strategy little bit different. Thats look lemmings come out Bit different on DOS version than SNES version. Its might changes some place make sliding glitch or releaserate manipulations. But otherwise this DOS route seems working very well on SNES version. No trouble with miners.

[MASTER-88]

Mayhem 10 jump come very close rightnow. I have to change some pixels between 1-2 lemmings.  Digger is pointless on SNES version, because its doesn,t work like DOS version (see my post upper)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwJ2VfSkQOI

Still make somethings little bit wrong. This is best compression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQcf87eRRUk

EDIT
Okay i see what i doing wrong video 2. I make basher little bit wrong timing and its make perfect compression, but thats look then you can´t make slide glitch itself, so its look i have reject this method. Video 1 i did this basher, builder correct and its make jump, but just only one lemmings. But its still looks i can´t make anything else better.

I just test out nearly alll releaserates between 26-15, but its not seems matter very much. I think i´ll need some more help. DOS video doesnt help a much because there is too much version differences compared SNES one. Mention upper post. I think i have to use video 1 method, because its correct slideglitch, but there is very limited amount things and time compress. I have to drop releaserate back to 1 so test higher than 26 releaserate seems pretty pointless IMO.

But its fact i really suck releaserate manipulations.

[MASTER-88]

Finally managed perfect mayhem 10 jump without digger on SNES version

Perfect compression
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVrwwKCWrfc

Perfect jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsK3LGXvruw

I have to check out some things better and increase my consistent. LOL thats take me many hours even figured out this.

I´ll make compression video as well. Its just look some floater timings and quick releaserate manipulations. Also im not are test did more than 2 lemming die. So i have to test it too.

Thatd idea pretty much like DOS. Using 26 releaserate when starting. Drop 24 and then drop 24 to 1 before 2nd lemmings landing. You can see it in video.

EDIT:
Thats seems we got another trouble. Its let one build brick remain before 3rd falling to death. So its look i have to check out some things out better. Thats piss off its so close working.

Just DAMN. Thats really can´t fixed here one gap remain video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzNCRYQWnZE

So i have to look whole fucking level over again. Nothing can make lemmings working faster even its let one gap.

Okay i have to keep some rest rightnow. My brains seems overaloaded rightnow. How ever i did extremely good progress. Its sad because its depend one single gap. But rightnow i can´t find idea how can solved this. I think i have to make compress and jump little bit faster. Its probably requires some changes. All tips are welcomed.