Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 6.10.2024.

[MASTER-88]

Mayhem 30 exit bug is tested and yeah its doesn´t work on SNES. Even if this work, its will requires use builder before enter miner tunnel.  So thats definitely impossible way save skills in this level.

About taxing 4. I am watch some DOS solutions in youtube and this hand trap hit box seems very different. I was still close make 15 skills solution on SNES. But that trap hitbox really surprise me. Somereason its allow builder build up, but when i release other ones that hand hitbox is still active and will kill those lemmings. I did short video about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmVj8cXys0

Only otherway make 15 skills could if i can build up without locking lemmings. Thats requires me start digger and basher left to right as left as possible. Then i could make four builders lower, but its still build up high enought. But this massive lemming group is big trouble because those hand traps will kill faller lemmings. This first hand trap is not that trouble because there is enought space but 2nd one will be big trouble. This might still possible if you releaserated perfect. But i really suck all releaserate things.  I never figured any releaserate stuff myself.

Also im tested method use 3 builders to left with starting level, but one gap will be mandatory pass first trap. So i cannot find any theory make this working 3 builders used.

My 16 skills video is just simply criss cross building up and thats look trap hitbox don´t allow you build any better. But this lemming group manipulation stuff might worth testing. But definitely need help releaserated better and however its might probably still impossible pass 2nd hand trap without faller lemmings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwaQ99mEG-4&list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj136snR0XiQSGv4jxL4135B&index=4

[ccexplore]

I'll try to take a look at your Taxing 4 video later this week to see what differences there are.  On DOS each trap has a trigger area (ie. hitbox) that's a 4x4 pixels square, also they don't quite line up with the walls (ie. there's actually a narrow gap between the actual walls nearby and the edges of the hitbox square).  Furthermore, collision check is solely based on a one-pixel point near the foot of the lemming, rather than the entire visible sprite of the lemming.  The vertical positioning of the trigger area is right around the spike that is second from bottom.

On the DOS solution, 10 builders are used to reach the exit.  How few can you get away with on SNES, if you ignore the lemmings that get killed because the builder hadn't finished building?

Ultimately there's a bit of luck involve to try to avoid having lemmings fall off an in-progress build bridge while it is directly over the trigger areas, and so on SNES you probably have to time things slightly different in various places to gain that luck in timing compared to the DOS solution.

DOS also has a difference in that for two-entrance levels, the lemmings come out of the entrances in 1-2-2-1-... order rather than the expected 1-2-1-2-... order like on SNES.  So basically you can't just directly copy the DOS solution exactly, but I still expect you can make do with some variation of it--the idea of the solution doesn't seem to rely on the 1-2-2-1 ordering, at least not obviously.

Note that the DOS solution doesn't "lock" lemmings to use your words, it is another case where release rate manipulations are used to bunch them up.  No drastic changes to the release rate are needed though.

[MASTER-88]

On the DOS solution, 10 builders are used to reach the exit.

Its requires 12 skills/builders reach the exit on SNES. 4 other skills will used starting. Just miner, digger, basher & last builder will release group. This way is used my 16 skills solution.

Thats really look trap hitbox not allow you build any less building. Yesterday did video where one lemming reach exit using only 11 builders, but that hand will kill those released lemmings.

I have also theory solution make level with 15 skills. Just used miner (unactive first trap) make digger and basher (left to right) take both as left as possible. This basher will be stop when it reach rightside. Then you can build up using 12 builders. But its look this solution never work make 100% because i can´t compress lemming groups enought and those will be falling and deaths when i reach 2nd hand trap.

But this look just fact 12 skills is mandatory reach the exit on SNES even one lemming will survive alive 11 skills only. (see video upper post)

EDIT:
I did two more emulator videos explain hitbox little bit better. Because my english is not that good. So its easier show some things.
5 builders is not enought pass first hand trap on SNES. Its requires use 6 ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLLoT55NDvI

Here is alternate way. But i personally can´t find way compress lemmings group enought and avoid faller lemming death with hands. If you can find perfect way compress and manipulate lemmings then 15 skills is theory possible. But its seems just impossible pass at least 2nd hand trap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChMqmsi2Rt0

[ccexplore]

I finally tested Taxing 4 myself on SNES, focusing on the spike traps.  Testing shows their trigger areas (ie. hitboxes) on SNES seems to be about 3x taller than on DOS, fully spanning both middle 2 of the 4 spikes, rather than just the 2nd from bottom like on DOS.  So yeah, I think you'll need 2 more builders than DOS.

One additional wrinkle is that I noticed you handled the right side on SNES using a miner near the "hangman" trap.  That doesn't work on DOS, the miner will not be stopped by the nearby steel on DOS, so the DOS solution actually handled the right side by digging a pit then build, holding (ie. "locking") those lemmings in the dig pit.  This has the side effect of basically bunching the lemmings on that side to a much tighter group, so you only need to manipulate release rate to bunch up lemmings on left side.  But for your proposed 15-skill solution (ie. no locking) on SNES, you can't use that option for the right side, so somehow the release rate manipulations to bunch up lemmings has to work for both sides, not just the left.  I strongly suspect that won't be possible because it looks like the widths of the two walking areas are not the same.

Even if there is a working release rate manipulation, the need to use more builders on SNES to get past the top spike trap will likely create a problem.  More lemmings compared to DOS will likely be catching up to the builder before he has finished making the path fully safe from the spike trap, and they may also be walking around the area longer as there is more building needed compared to DOS.  So it might well be that even with bunching up the lemmings perfectly, the timing might still not be able to work out on SNES for all the lemmings to avoid the spike trap.

While I'm not completely out of ideas yet, for now I'd say not to waste more time on this level.  If I do eventually find something that I've actually tested on SNES and shows promise there, I'll let you know.

[MASTER-88]

Mayhem 1 Steel Works 100% saved with 27 skills. I see this beat also DOS version record with one less skill used. Im not sure is there version differences between SNES vs DOS. Someone DOS player might try confirmed this.

This use pretty much same solution as my 28 skills solution, but new lock and released strategy make me completed this one less skill..
Mayhem 1 10028 points (100% & 27 skills)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPSvZbpeT7c

EDIT:
Mayhem 2 9949 points 99% & 16 skills used. Just better system lock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdIZCnI7HoQ

[MASTER-88]

EDIT:
Mayhem 2 9949 points 99% & 16 skills used. Just better system lock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdIZCnI7HoQ

Just check out DOS 100% solution.
1: If you can make this lock system working you can make 99% using 15 skills without glitches. And yeah this lock system work like DOS but releaserate is big trouble. I have to slowdown 3rd lemmings, because 2nd lemmings no have time build up and lock 3rd lemmings. Im not give up yet, but its strongly looks its requires extra builder slowdown. This look DOS version you can change releaserate when you are paused and its doesn´t work on SNES.

2: I finally see how this sliding glitch is maded here, but i personally not know how its exactly working. I am see it used some TAS runs and etc... But i guess its just perfect timing.

3: 3rd trouble is releaserate like 67 used on DOS version its not enought fast let pass 100 lemmings out fast enoought. There is 80 lemmings on DOS and 100 lemming on SNES. If you need compress you have to make it using faster releaserate or just waste more time in level.

My final analyze: You can´t copy DOS version method on SNES version. But sliding glitch is confirmed working on nearly all lemminsg versions. But you have to make compress and nearly all things different way on SNES.

Let see.....

Some tips might very welcomed. I might also try find 99% 15 skill method its only required me slowdown 3rd lemming little bit more but its hard because you can´t change releaserate when are paused on SNES. So only potential way is manipulate 1st and 2nd lemmings come out faster and slowdown before 3rd one or just try turn 2nd lemmings faster and make lock. This spend testing.

EDIT:
Short (7 seconds video) why 15 skills 99% and DOS lock doesn´t work on SNES. Its really look there is no way make this lock like DOS did. I look just little bit better, but this look level desing is bit different than DOS. Its look 3rd lemming come out faster even releaserate is 30. I just trying copy DOS method and change releaserate and many things but its not help. DOS not even change releaserate before 3rd lemmings come out. So DOS method make better lock doesn´t work. There might still different method, but its requires more testing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoEAUhK1o68&feature=youtu.be

Im bit tired rightnow tested different pixels and releaserates one by one. But i might back this later.

[ccexplore]

Which DOS Lemmix replay did you based your video on (can you post the URL, or the topic title and reply #, if you got it from this forum)?  It doesn't quite match any of the 100% solutions replay I have on my computer and I have 3.  It looks closest to the one whose filename has "15builders", but your two build bridges in the video look too far apart compared to the replay.  The other two replays on my computer have the bridges starting a little bit further out to the left than your video.

The solution that produces the DOS record for total skills count at 100% save, is a variation of this one which originally uses only builders, but can be trivially modified to use 17 builders and 1 climber.  It only uses very small release rate changes that are definitely doable on SNES, but as a result it takes longer for level solution to complete (nearly all lemmings are coming out at release rate 30).

The replay for the 15-builder solution is this one, but it uses more of other skills, and so the total skill count actually comes out to 20 and not better than the DOS record for total skill count.  It looks like your interest in this replay was primarily for the slightly more efficient way to hold (ie. "lock") the lemmings.

Now to address your comments:

1: If you can make this lock system working you can make 99% using 15 skills without glitches. And yeah this lock system work like DOS but releaserate is big trouble. I have to slowdown 3rd lemmings, because 2nd lemmings no have time build up and lock 3rd lemmings. Im not give up yet, but its strongly looks its requires extra builder slowdown. This look DOS version you can change releaserate when you are paused and its doesn´t work on SNES.

If you are referring to the "15-builder" DOS solution, that is not the one that produces the DOS record anyway.  For the "lock system", note that you need to set the release rate to 40 before the first lemming comes out.  I think you might have missed that when watching the replay, which may be why you ended up building the rightmost bridge not as close to the other bridge as you see in the replay, causing things to not work out.  Release rate can be 40 at any time as long as it is before you can see the first lemming coming out.  Once after the first lemming comes out, drop the release rate back to 30 before second lemming comes out.  These release rate changes are definitely doable on SNES.

The 15-builder DOS solution then requires a release rate change from 30 to 67 after second lemming comes out.  This can actually be made 31 to 66 for same effect.  It is quite a high release rate change, but based on my calculations it might still barely be doable on SNES.  Even if it isn't, it just means you have to spend an extra climber for the extra lemming that isn't part of the compressed crowd that gets slide up by the glitch.  In any case, this isn't really worth discussing further because the 15-builder DOS solution is not even the DOS record when it comes to total skills.

When watching Lemmix replays, note that release rate changes have same effect regardless of exact timing, as long as it is done at some point right after Nth lemming out and right before the N+1-th lemming out--the change would then affect not lemming N+1, but the next-next one (N+2).  It is not literally necessary for the release rate to make an instant jump from one value to a much larger value, though it is certainly possible with pausing on DOS Lemmings, and Lemmix replays depict all release rate changes as instant given it is always possible with pausing.

2: I finally see how this sliding glitch is maded here, but i personally not know how its exactly working. I am see it used some TAS runs and etc... But i guess its just perfect timing.

There is a brief overview here (under section "Builders"), and I've included some additional details in below spoiler section.  It does unfortunately require perfect or near-perfect timing to trigger, which means that in practice, even something as trivial as how long to let a lemming shrug before assigning him next builder, can affect the timing needed.  So even when you know the exact timing details, in practice you can almost never work it out in advance, instead you need to use tools like emulators to see how much you've deviated in your current attempt from the perfect timing needed, and then make small tweaks to previous moves before the glitch to try to get the timing to line up.  So I'm not 100% sure how helpful those details will be, but I guess better than nothing.

Spoiler

For a step height of 3 pixels (minimum), the builder needs to start laying the brick, when the lemming to be slid up is 8 pixels away from the step.  The way we count the 8 pixels is:  starting at the vertical column of pixels making up the step, move 8 pixel-steps horizontally away from it towards the lemming that is walking towards the step.  Then line up the lemming graphics with the pixel you are at, as follows:

- If lemming is facing right, look at his face (white part) which looks like an inverted T.  The left pixel of the inverted T should line up with above pixel.
- If lemming is facing left, use the center pixel of the inverted T instead.

This assumes there are no other large steps in between lemming's current location and the step, so that the lemming moves exactly one pixel forward horizontally each time game advances forward, not having to spend any extra time falling down a large step or jumping up a large step.

It actually also matters whether the builder is a lemming that comes out of entrance before or after the lemming you want to slide.  The above assumes "before" (the typical case).  If it is "after", you need the lemming you want to slide to be 9 rather than 8 pixels from the step.

If the step height is 4 or 5 pixels instead of 3, in additional to the timings noted above, the walking lemming can also be 1 pixel closer to step:  so 7 or 8 for the "before" case, 8 or 9 for the "after" case.  For step height 6 (maximum), the walking lemming can be 2 pixels closer to step, so 6-8 "before" and 7-9 "after".

Probably the most useful information is just to know what happens when you missed the perfect timing:  if the builder builds too early, the step turns into a wall too early so the lemming just turns around instead of getting slid up.  If the builder builds too late, then the lemmings already finishes moving up the step before the build brick is fully laid down, and often those lemmings will then get trapped in what has now become a wall instead of a step.  With this information, you can tell when tweaking a solution attempt, whether you need to make the builder build slightly earlier or later, or make the lemming reaches the step earlier or later.

3: 3rd trouble is releaserate like 67 used on DOS version its not enought fast let pass 100 lemmings out fast enoought. There is 80 lemmings on DOS and 100 lemming on SNES. If you need compress you have to make it using faster releaserate or just waste more time in level.

I think you are overestimating the amount of time needed for these solutions.  Testing shows that SNES advances game 15 times (steps) for the game's timer to go down one second, versus DOS's 17 times.  Now let's look at the 17-builder 1-climber DOS solution, which actually takes even longer as it leaves the release rate mostly at 30:

- The level gives you 6 minutes.
- The 80th lemming comes out when timer reads 3:01.
- The last lemming to exit finishes exiting when time reads 2:18.

So the DOS solution takes no more than 3 minutes for 80th lemming to come out, which in DOS is 17 * 180 = 3060 steps.  From the point of 80th lemming out to the level being done, it's about 43 seconds, let's round that up generously to another minute = 17 * 60 = 1020 steps.

At release rate of 30, there is floor((99-30)/2) + 4 = 38 steps between one lemming coming out of entrance and the next one coming out.  So having 20 more lemmings on SNES would add 38 * 20 = 760 steps, waiting for them to come out at release rate 30.

Altogether we end up with 4840 steps total, which with SNES's faster game timer taking only 15 steps for each second, we end up with 4840/15 = 322.7 seconds = about 5 min 23 seconds.  So yes, you are cutting it a little close, but still under the 6 minute mark.

If you're still not convinced, try this:  according to the above calculations, on SNES with release rate left at 30, the 100th lemming to come out should do so around when the timer reads 1:45.  Play the level doing (almost) nothing but wait for the lemmings to come out, and see how close the prediction is to reality.

There is however one trouble I've excluded:  as you can see when watching the Lemmix replay, the DOS solution actually takes some time waiting after 80th lemming is out before assigning the builder that releases (ie. "unlock") the crowd.  This wait is specifically to get the timing to work out later for applying the glitch.  With 100 lemmings instead of 80, the required timing obviously changes, and may end up requiring more waiting (beyond just waiting for the 100th lemming to come out) compared to DOS solution.  So it is possible you might run out of time as a result, only testing can tell.

As for the 15-builder solution, since it uses a comparatively higher release rate, you are in even less danger of running out of time.

[MASTER-88]

Which DOS Lemmix replay did you based your video on (can you post the URL, or the topic title and reply #, if you got it from this forum)?

That replay file name was mayhem2_15 builder_100.

I also watch mayhem2-builders_100

Those two solutions was only i got find then. Not sure is there other completion solutions. But yeah its look i more watch this 15 builder version, because its look completely more simple.

If you are referring to the "15-builder" DOS solution, that is not the one that produces the DOS record anyway.  For the "lock system", note that you need to set the release rate to 40 before the first lemming comes out.  I think you might have missed that when watching the replay, which may be why you ended up building the rightmost bridge not as close to the other bridge as you see in the replay, causing things to not work out.  Release rate can be 40 at any time as long as it is before you can see the first lemming coming out.  Once after the first lemming comes out, drop the release rate back to 30 before second lemming comes out.  These release rate changes are definitely doable on SNES.

Okay thanks. I probably miss out this. I just look solution where releaserate jump 30-67. I´ll test out this 40.

[MASTER-88]

Mayhem 2 9950 points (15 skills solution)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWtTCI9Mpts

Yeah this look i already overlook few things. Just releaserate 40 & builder spots. Thanks ccexplore your tips with this.

This seems this is finally perfect 99% solution. Its time to work 100% slide glitch solution next. There might be some differents about releaserating on SNES.

EDIT:

mayhem2-builders_100

Just check out this solution and its seems you not need change releaserate here very much. Its might potential. I have to look if this building method will work here.

[MASTER-88]

Trying make 100% lock like DOS version did, but i did something wrong but can,t see what. Lemmings doesn´t compress like DOS replay. I
I did emulator video and little bit explain:

Releaserate 30 & builder and then releaserate 33
Seconds lemming come out releaserate 33 to 35 and 2nd builder
Third lemming comeout releaserate 35 to 30 and then make lock. Its just easier look video. But you can see lemmings doens,t compress and then i can´t make slide glitch at end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Ftymx66N4

I probably overlook something or there is just bit difference about releaserate when you can´t change it when you are paused.  Just spend good 2 hours, but can´t make compression succesfully.

EDIT:
Just did this compression succesfully on DOS version and its only take few attempts. Its really seems this paused help a lot make it correct because its seems this releaserating is very precise make perfectly. Im not know can DOS version method even working on SNES.

Im not 100% sure how releaserate register on SNES version. Even you need only changes releaserate between 30, 33 & 35 and 30 but its probably register it bit wrong when im unpaused and thats mean its not are working on SNES.

Using DOS version im not find that much trouble make this perfect compression. Just only take me few failed attempts and resets on DOS. Trying use same way on SNES emulator thats compression not happen correctly, see video upper.

So probaby we have to plan little bit different strategy on SNES version or this all will requires more better timing releaserate correct.

EDIT 2:
Test more test DOS vs SNES and i can easily say this releaserate method which used DOS version doesn´t work on SNES version. I did it several times correctly on DOS version, but no hope make it on SNES. Thats not compress on SNES. Im not going spend anymore time trying make that way working. But however there might be different working compress method on SNES. Its will requires more testing. As long as we can´t compress lemmings we can´t make 100% done on SNES version.

This look its requires extremely sharp releaserate manipulations and thats cannot make on SNES like DOS. I´ll hope Ccexplore who is releaserate expert might look is there any working way make perfect compression on SNES version.

[ccexplore]

You built in the wrong places again, this time in your video you are building one pixel farther to the right than you should be (ie. you should shift the two bridges left 1 pixel).  Please use the pattern of pixels at the floor as a reference to line up your builders exactly as seen in the Lemmix replay.  Perfect compression requires perfect placement so that the walking back and forth is of an exact distance.  The release rate changes look correct in the video.

Also note that you will see the first lemming that comes out, eventually wound up being 1 pixel off from the crowd (instead of perfectly at same spot as crowd).  This is intentional.  The builder that eventually triggers the glitch is second lemming out, and the timing required for triggering sliding varies slightly based on whether the lemming came out of entrance before vs after the lemming that builds.

Your mistake isn't a total loss though.  It shows that, if leaving things mostly at release rate 30 ends up taking too long, we could instead try the setup in your video using a slightly higher release rate (but not so high as to make it impossible to do in SNES) to compensate for the shorter walking distance.  But that change affects timing of other things as well so at the moment, let's stick with the DOS solution for now before we are forced to start deviating.

[MASTER-88]

You built in the wrong places again, this time in your video you are building one pixel farther to the right than you should be (ie. you should shift the two bridges left 1 pixel).  Please use the pattern of pixels at the floor as a reference to line up your builders exactly as seen in the Lemmix replay.  Perfect compression requires perfect placement so that the walking back and forth is of an exact distance.  The release rate changes look correct in the video.

Okay. Thats just ironic i did perfect compression on DOS version several times, but can´t make it even once on SNES using releaserate rate like this. I´ll keep trying and look what hell i do wrong around pixels.

Using releaserate 34. 97/100 lemmings going in one single bunch without trouble. But thats change nearly everything else in level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbWPTi22B1s

EDIT:
LOL I finally did its correct. That ironic how long its take me.

EDIT 2: Compression is succesfully done now, but no hope make slide glitch. Couple hours trying, its incredible difficult even emulator. Thats look its frame perfect includes builders and waver animations which are nearly impossible make consistent perfectly. Thats look my skill level is no enought make this on console. Its might work on emulator if i spend next couple days attempts this. Its look 4 hours attempts not was enought yet. I´ll need break now.

[ccexplore]

Ok, to help you at least get a 100% result even if not optimal skill-wise, here is an easier but slightly inferior adaptation of the DOS record solution, that requires no tricky frame-perfect timing (like how long to wait for a builder to shrug), you just have to assign all the builders at exact locations as shown in replay, not easy but still more doable.  97 (instead of 99) lemmings get slid up and the rest you rescue with climbers, also an extra builder is used.  So I think you will end up using 21 skills compared to DOS record's 18, but at least it gets you your first 100% result on SNES to start.  See attached Lemmix replay.  The replay works off DOS's 80 lemmings, but same moves still work with SNES's 100 lemmings, since with this solution you no longer rely on trying to time that lone lemming that's not with the crowd.  The important thing here is to change release rate from 30 to 36 sometime after the 98th lemming comes out but before the 99th comes out.  This would put the 100th lemming slightly ahead of the compressed crowd.  You will end up using him instead to be the builder that triggers the sliding glitch.  I also reused all the same minor release rate changes at the start as the original DOS record solution.

[MASTER-88]

Damn that its so close. I got slide glitch working but only one will slide up. Trying both methods. I have to look some things better i guess.

Slide 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXPJ-JlZGOc

Slide 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfLPibejSFM

[ccexplore]

Slide 1 seems to finish building one step too early so the crowd ends up turning around instead of going up.  I guess somewhere (perhaps offscreen) one of your builders is placed differently from DOS replay?  But I think it means you can also try release rate of 34 instead of 36 to effectively make the builder build slightly later, if you can do all other parts of level exactly as you did in that video.

Slide 2 (ie. based on the DOS record solution) I probably have to see what you did differently on the right to figure out what went wrong.  It looks to me like you somehow ended up with the compressed crowd slightly behind, instead of ahead, of the lemming that is one step off from the crowd.  Even if the timing had worked out to slide the compressed crowd, you would then end up with that other lemming not getting slide up instead (and then you would need to spend an extra climber for him).  For matching the DOS record, you need that other lemming to be exactly one step behind the crowd, so that everyone (except the builder of course) can slide up.

For slide 2 solution (ie. the one based on the DOS record) make sure you assign the builder for "unlocking" exactly as shown location-wise in Lemmix replay.  That needs to be exact so after he finishes building he merges perfectly with the crowd.  That said, I don't actually know if that's the reason you failed for slide 2, just a guess.

But yes, getting very close! Good luck!  Also worth pointing out that this level is probably hardest one to use the sliding glitch on for points record solutions, because you need the glitch to slide almost everyone up, which leads to the requirement for perfect compression.  On other levels you just need to slide one or two lemmings up which is a lot easier to manage.