[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?

[Proxima]

NeoLemmix versions of the original levels are now hosted here. This is still a work in progress, but can be used as a basis for this challenge, so long as it's clear that all results are only tentative until we have a final version.

However, there is an important question to raise for this challenge in particular. This challenge requires a modified pack, with each level given the new skills. But this can't actually be done any more -- there are 11 new skills with the introduction of the Jumper, but a single level can only have 10.

One possibility would be to remove the Disarmer from levels with no traps, and the Swimmer from levels with no water -- but then we still have a problem on any levels that have both.

What should we do about this?

[WillLem]

This is still a work in progress, but can be used as a basis for this challenge, so long as it's clear that all results are only tentative until we have a final version.

I'm happy to wait until version 1.0 has been finalised to be honest. What do you reckon, Minim?

What should we do about this?

Four possibilities:

1) Make every entrance hatch spawn Swimmers, and every time a lem enters the water as part of the solution count 1 Swimmer (unless it's the same lem).
2) Make every entrance hatch spawn Disarmers, and every time a lem disarms a trap count 1 Disarmer (unless it's the same lem).
3) Remove Stoners (I'll probs do this for my version of the challenge since I'll be going for all-save each time anyway).
4) Something else I haven't thought of.

[Minim]

This is still a work in progress, but can be used as a basis for this challenge, so long as it's clear that all results are only tentative until we have a final version.

I'm happy to wait until version 1.0 has been finalised to be honest. What do you reckon, Minim?

I don't mind waiting. I'm actually playing through the whole challenge pack. Haven't had any qualms yet so far. Though I'm wondering, for levels that have alternate save requirements, (Mayhem 4 and Taxing 22 are two examples off the top of my head) use the lower ones regardless, or are we sticking with Amiga? Lower saves should hopefully open up more solutions without creating too many backroutes.

What should we do about this?

Four possibilities:

1) Make every entrance hatch spawn Swimmers, and every time a lem enters the water as part of the solution count 1 Swimmer (unless it's the same lem).
2) Make every entrance hatch spawn Disarmers, and every time a lem disarms a trap count 1 Disarmer (unless it's the same lem).
3) Remove Stoners (I'll probs do this for my version of the challenge since I'll be going for all-save each time anyway).
4) Something else I haven't thought of.

I'm against the 1st and 2nd ones. 3rd was one of my options off the top of my head, and it's probably the idea I want to go for.

My idea for a 4th one was to check the level records' replays, and find out which skill they haven't used. If they used all 10 of them, it's probably not worth including the jumper at all. Since all of WillLem's replays discount the stoner, it naturally blends into the 3rd one.

[Proxima]

Though I'm wondering, for levels that have alternate save requirements, (Mayhem 4 and Taxing 22 are two examples off the top of my head) use the lower ones regardless, or are we sticking with Amiga?

There's actually an inconsistency here that should be addressed. The results, at the moment, report the maximum saved even if it's below the save requirement, e.g. Taxing 1 has a lose-3 solution reported even though the original level is lose-1. Namida's older topic for this challenge treats the original save requirements as binding, so a result below the save requirement would be treated as "no solution". I don't have a strong opinion either way, but we should pick to one of these approaches and stick with it.

If we decide to keep the original save requirements, then it will certainly be the Amiga version, because the NeoLemmix versions of the original levels use Amiga statistics.

3rd was one of my options off the top of my head, and it's probably the idea I want to go for.

If this topic is to be a fair record of "Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?" then we can't just erase the Stoner.

[ccexplore]

Did the cloner already exist back in namida's original formulation of challenge?  The cloner is the only reason why number of lemmings lost can deviate with number of lemmings saved in the reported solutions, AFAIK.  We are still taking the originals' number of lemmings to save as binding AFAIK, just that you can lose more than you can originally by compensating the losses with use of cloners.

I don't really interpret the original level's save requirement as a requirement on number of lemmings lost, though I can see how someone else may subscribe to that interpretation.  But the thing is, you can't define "number of lemmings lost" as a solution criteria in NeoLemmix today--the determination of whether you pass a level or not is still solely based on number of lemmings saved.  And it's always my interpretation that this challenge is to imagine changing only the skillset and nothing else about the level, and then ask whether the resulting level can be solved in NeoLemmix.  That's it.  In which case the save requirement should remain a save requirement and not a loss requirement.

I'm not completely opposed to DOS save requirements but I do feel the Amiga ones are preferred.  As far as I remember, only a few levels in DOS deviated from Amiga, and in all cases the DOS deviations "water down" the levels' difficulty.  Many other ports follow the Amiga statistics as well if/when they feature the same levels, whereas I'm not sure whether the DOS deviations were ever seen in any other ports.  And like Proxima said, if we already adopted Amiga's having 100 vs DOS's 80 lemmings for most levels, and adopted all the water in Amiga that were taken out on DOS, etc., we might as well be consistent all the way and choose the Amiga version for everything else about the level.

As for the new skillset, I think to fit the spirit of what we are going for, we'll need to give the player free reign in choosing which of the new skills to use.  It could mean the player having to modify the level from time to time to incorporate the skillset he/she wound up using.

[Proxima]

Did the cloner already exist back in namida's original formulation of challenge?  The cloner is the only reason why number of lemmings lost can deviate with number of lemmings saved in the reported solutions, AFAIK.  We are still taking the originals' number of lemmings to save as binding AFAIK, just that you can lose more than you can originally by compensating the losses with use of cloners.

Oops I completely didn't think of that.

[Minim]

As for the new skillset, I think to fit the spirit of what we are going for, we'll need to give the player free reign in choosing which of the new skills to use.  It could mean the player having to modify the level from time to time to incorporate the skillset he/she wound up using.

I think I'll change my mind and agree with this proposal instead. To make this work better, the solver will need to give the other players some kind of clue as to which skills they used (Or rather, which ones they didn't use to simplify things.) For example, if the solver completes Fun 8 with 2 of each skill without using stoners, they can simply rename their uploaded file to something like Fun_8_NS_2x_no_stoners.

[ccexplore]

Based on my limited past participation, although every new skill had been used in at least one solution I've posted, I believe the swimmer had been least used so far.  So I'd guess that for the levels containing both water and traps, leaving swimmers out of the skillset in the supplied reference levels would be least likely to require player to change the skillset themselves.

[WillLem]

If all 4 skills do get implemented in 12.11, that will bring the total "new" skills to 15. I'd definitely be interested in looking at this challenge again if, as and when the stable is released.

I suggest, to keep the next "new skills" challenge interesting, all 5 new new skills (i.e. those not used in the last challenge - Jumpers, Sliders, Grenadiers, Laserblasters and Spearthrowers) should be used in every level, but the other 5 skills can be interchangeable depending on the needs of the level.

Thoughts?

[Proxima]

Challenges should be fun, but they aren't just games. They should set a clear goal, and be our best attempt at meeting that goal.

Here, the goal is clear: to determine which levels can be beaten with (any quantity of) the new skills, but none of the old ones. The fact that there might be 15 new skills, but only 10 can fit on the panel at once makes things awkward, but doesn't excuse leaving any skills out. So the rule will continue to be: you can edit the level to provide whatever new-skills-only skillset is most appropriate to beating the level with the smallest number of skills.

[WillLem]

Fair enough. Maybe there needs to be a separate board for experimentation.

[jkapp76]

Hey, WillLem...

Could you post your version of the levels here with your mods to the skill amounts? I'd like the skills set up just like yours. And I'd love to not have to edit each level if I don't have to.

[WillLem]

Hey, WillLem...

Could you post your version of the levels here with your mods to the skill amounts? I'd like the skills set up just like yours. And I'd love to not have to edit each level if I don't have to.

This is just a quick forum visit and I don't have the levels handy, but you can use the attached tool to quickly modify large groups of levels yourself.

See also this topic for more info/instructions on how to use it.

[WillLem]

Results for previously impossible levels so far (modded levels and replays attached):

Lemmings

Fun 21 & Mayhem 26 - 5 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Swimmers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Fun 23 & Taxing 17 - 13 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 12 - 23 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 23 - 52 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 28 - 22 of each (Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Oh No! More Lemmings

Tame 5 - No solution found
Wicked 2 - No solution found
Havoc 11 - No solution found

2-Player

2P (2) We're In This One Together - No solution found
2P (15) Graffiti - No solution found
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 61 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 47 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 99% Saved
2P (29) Co-operation - 31 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (34) Graffiti (Genesis Version) - No solution found

Please note that the 2-Player levels were numbered differently for this challenge than they are in the actual games, so the challenge number is in (brackets) and the level title is specified for clarity.

Holiday Lemmings

Xmas '91 1 - 25 of each (Walkers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Frost 10 - No solution found
Frost 12 - 64 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Hail 9 - 19 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Shimmiers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Extra Levels

Present 19 - No solution found
PSP 5 - 4 of each (Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
PSP 25 - No solution found
Sunsoft 13 - 12 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 17 - 4 of each (Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 21 - 16 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

[WillLem]

Results for previously impossible levels (pre-Jumpers, Sliders, Laserers) (modded levels and replays attached):

Lemmings

Fun 21 & Mayhem 26 - 5 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Swimmers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Fun 23 & Taxing 17 - 13 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 12 - 23 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 23 - 52 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 28 - 22 of each (Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Oh No! More Lemmings

Tame 5 - No solution found
Wicked 2 - No solution found
Havoc 11 - No solution found

2-Player

2P (2) We're In This One Together - No solution found
2P (15) Graffiti - No solution found
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 61 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 47 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 99% Saved
2P (29) Co-operation - 31 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (34) Graffiti (Genesis Version) - No solution found

Please note that the 2-Player levels were numbered differently for this challenge than they are in the actual games, so the challenge number is in (brackets) and the level title is specified for clarity.

Holiday Lemmings

Xmas '91 1 - 25 of each (Walkers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Frost 10 - No solution found
Frost 12 - 64 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Hail 9 - 19 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Shimmiers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Extra Levels

Present 19 - No solution found
PSP 5 - 4 of each (Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
PSP 25 - No solution found
Sunsoft 13 - 12 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 17 - 4 of each (Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 21 - 16 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Some of these may be improvable with a bit of Laserer/Fencer twiddling. The only levels which now remain impossible, it seems, all require downwards-destruction.