[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?

[WillLem]

The first two are straightforward as you need to go round the outside of the level. On 8, the left side is shorter than the right. 30 is a more optimised nuke solution. Here I basically edited its text file by removing 10 cloner assignments, and voila!

Do you mean opening the replay file as a text file and editing it from there? I'm guessing that's how you achieve pixel-perfect precision in your solutions?

Spoiler

4: Narrowed down to 7 of each. It was 8 initially, but after looking at your replay I realised that your method of safety bridge creation in the middle was better, and the gaps were short enough for the platformer to be cloned. I was able to combine them together for an improved result.

Great job! I don't know why it didn't occur to me to use the outer towers rather than stacking up, but yeah, I think between us we've got the perfect solution.

10: Down to 6 of each. I thought my method of trapping the lemmings here would be worth watching.

Genius bit of crowd control. Watching this inspired me to have another go at the level. I managed to (just) get it down to 5 of each; I'm not even sure how the last platformer worked because they're not supposed to be usable on a flat surface, it must be something to do with the movement of the fencer.

11: Improved to 6 of each. For one side, I used 6 fencers at the bottom of the grid to ensure safety. The other side I used building skills to rescue 'em.

Good job; this was probably the messiest of all the 2P levels.

25: Easily doable with 2 of each. A walker stops a fencer as soon as he makes a dent in the pipe. Followed by 2 stackers to ascend up the middle towards the exit.

Another good spot: I need to get into the habit of considering the full scope of movement of the destructive skills. It occasionally occurs to me; for example, you can use half a basher stroke to make a "step" - but yeah, for challenges like this it's worth thinking of this kind of thing as a standard move.

Sega 3: Great job. I was dying to find out the 3 of each solution, and I keep missing out by 1 skill.

Thanks! I generally prefer to walk across the top of a level if it's at all possible, I simply aimed for that and the solution presented itself as I went along.

I'm on the PSP ones tonight and then I'm going to play through a few levels from Nessy's new pack, I haven't played any of his stuff yet and I want to see what his level style is like.

[Proxima]

Do you mean opening the replay file as a text file and editing it from there? I'm guessing that's how you achieve pixel-perfect precision in your solutions?

Pixel-perfect precision is achieved by pausing and using the "1 frame forwards" and "1 frame backwards" hotkeys. If you're not familiar with these, you should get used to using them -- not only are they often essential for doing challenges in NL, but they make playing levels normally a lot more user-friendly.

[Minim]

The first two are straightforward as you need to go round the outside of the level. On 8, the left side is shorter than the right. 30 is a more optimised nuke solution. Here I basically edited its text file by removing 10 cloner assignments, and voila!

Do you mean opening the replay file as a text file and editing it from there? I'm guessing that's how you achieve pixel-perfect precision in your solutions?

Yes, indeed. It is a risky move though and is only recommended if you want to remove unnecessary clutter to your solution, rather than edit the skills' frame and pixel placements, which would otherwise increase your chances of breaking the solution.

10: Down to 6 of each. I thought my method of trapping the lemmings here would be worth watching.

Genius bit of crowd control. Watching this inspired me to have another go at the level. I managed to (just) get it down to 5 of each; I'm not even sure how the last platformer worked because they're not supposed to be usable on a flat surface, it must be something to do with the movement of the fencer.

I had a look and a closer investigation at the last part of your replay under Clear Physics Mode. If you hover the cursor over the fencer, you should see a red spot with a yellow centre, which is where the pixel the lemming is standing on, and therefore where any skill assignment you make will take place on that spot. If you pause and as Proxima mentioned, toggle the frames with these hotkeys, you'll eventually see the spot change positions, unless it's a blocker of course. This also applies to the fencer after it's dug its area. The distance between that spot and where the fencer was placed happened to be short enough that there was an open area to allow the assignment of the platformer. This wouldn't have worked if the stacker was placed further away from the open area. I hope I explained this clear enough.

Still, I'm amazed that you managed to take advantage of these mechanics when nothing looked possible after using up all the shimmiers and walkers. This is definitely one of the most amazing new skill solutions I've ever seen!

I'm on the PSP ones tonight and then I'm going to play through a few levels from Nessy's new pack, I haven't played any of his stuff yet and I want to see what his level style is like.

Sure. I don't mind having a go at the "Other" category.

[WillLem]

Pixel-perfect precision is achieved by pausing and using the "1 frame forwards" and "1 frame backwards" hotkeys. If you're not familiar with these, you should get used to using them -- not only are they often essential for doing challenges in NL, but they make playing levels normally a lot more user-friendly.

Thanks Proxima, good shout. I have the forwards/backwards framesteps assigned to left/right mouse buttons respectively, plus automatic replay cancel on backstep.

I guess what I'm asking Minim about is his use of the text editor to target very specific frames in a replay. At least, that's what I imagine is happening - I'm just trying to understand more about this method coz I've heard a few people mentioning it.

To be fair, I'm happy with framestepping; as you've quite rightly pointed out, it more than does the job as far as on-the-fly pixel precision goes, and I'm aware of the ability to edit replays as well if a level gets particularly complex.

[WillLem]

Yes, indeed. It is a risky move though and is only recommended if you want to remove unnecessary clutter to your solution, rather than edit the skills' frame and pixel placements, which would otherwise increase your chances of breaking the solution.

Haha to be fair I'm still getting used to the idea of being able to framestep and see skill shadows (both fantastic developments to the Lemmings game btw), so I'm not going to be diving into text editors to solve levels anytime soon! I rarely even use clear physics it's just interesting to learn more about different approaches to the puzzles.

Still, I'm amazed that you managed to take advantage of these mechanics when nothing looked possible after using up all the shimmiers and walkers. This is definitely one of the most amazing new skill solutions I've ever seen!

To be honest, it was a complete fluke discovery - I'd "run out" of walkers and shimmiers and so I just clicked the platformer at that moment to see what would happen. It confused me that it even worked. But yes, I've had a look at the clear physics and I think I see what you mean - the dot rises up by a pixel for a moment, and it's then that it's possible to assign the platformer.

Sure. I don't mind having a go at the "Other" category.

I'll do these as well for sure! Looking forward to it.

[Minim]

As promised, my results for the Other Rank are here, and you'll be pleased to know that they're all possible without requiring an update! Replays for all except 2 and 8 attached in the bundle.
1: 10 of each
2: 0 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 7 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 4 of each
10: 10 of each
11: 3 of each

Also, I decided to go back to Present 6. I managed to find something solvable at last, but not without losing lots of lemmings thanks to the time limit.

I scrapped the Gliders and used walkers first, particularly on areas where they fell the second and third times; and the most I could get was 26.

Following on from this, the next method I tried was using stackers to redirect the lemmings. The right stacker is fine but when you come to do the left stacker it has to be positioned at the bottom of the valley otherwise it will start stacking a pixel lower, therefore wasting some frames trying to complete the redirect. The terrain layout was helpful in that walking the stacker after he completes the seventh stack will ensure that no lems from the opposite side will get trapped. While the stacker was building I used cloners for all the lemmings in front of the 26th, particularly as they fell. With 98 as the requirement I had to click the same button 72 times! With the left stacker positioned differently as well I also had to remember to turn the 26th lemming round to get him home too.

My result is: 72 of each, lost 74.

EDIT: Also confirmed Sunsoft 1 is possible. Really starting to get more creative with those gliders now! Base result is 22 of each, lost 32.

SECOND EDIT: Yet another level I can confirm as possible! Present 15, which can be done with 50 of each, lost 50, and probably my favourite nuke solution of the lot. The process is similar to Sunsoft 1, but the terrain layout is more complex. With the steep drop, I had to use all the gliders again, but I also found a way to create a "chain" of lemmings 1 pixel apart using a cloner. I had to wait until all the lemmings are out before attempting this trick. After getting the latest lemmings into position with walkers and a 98 RR I then simply clicked the cloner when every last lemming hits the wall to create this wonderful chain.

[WillLem]

Also, I decided to go back to Present 6.
---
My result is: 72 of each, lost 74.

Love the method - I upped this to Save 116, 99 of each, lost 83 initially by literally just going nuts with Cloners right near the exit. I'm sure that with very careful editing this could be improved even more by using walkers to turn the cloned Lems around - maybe you could work some text editor magic?

Also confirmed Sunsoft 1 is possible. Really starting to get more creative with those gliders now! Base result is 22 of each, lost 32.

Hmmm this replay didn't work in my NL...

Yet another level I can confirm as possible! Present 15, which can be done with 50 of each, lost 50, and probably my favourite nuke solution of the lot.

This one worked perfectly! How did you manage not to destroy any of the terrain below the exit?

I've been playing through some custom packs today; I'll have a look at the Other levels tomorrow.

[Minim]

Also confirmed Sunsoft 1 is possible. Really starting to get more creative with those gliders now! Base result is 22 of each, lost 32.

Hmmm this replay didn't work in my NL...

Maybe I forgot to update the pack. Now it's been updated and hopefully the replay's solution will work.

[WillLem]

Results/replays for PSP and Other above.

I think the PSP ones have been the easiest so far, I got through these quite quickly. By contrast, the Other levels have been some of the most cumbersome! I only managed to make one improvement in this lot, so I ended up being a bit liberal with the regular skills for some of these, greyed them out as usual though so just ignore those!

I'm doing a challenge similar to this that involves the use of any skills to get maximum saves in minimum time, if you fancy getting involved it'd be great to see you there.

[Minim]

I also had a quick whizz of the PSP levels. I also did some levels with the criteria reversed because for some levels you only need one lemming. Here's my set of results. Edit: Forgot to attach some replays.

2: 2 of each, lost 3
3: 2 of each, lost 3
11: 3 of each, lost 1
24: 1 of each, lost 1
28: 1 of each, lost 2
32: 1 of each, lost 3

Now, the comments on PSP levels (And Other 7)

Spoiler

4: Excellent skill distribution here. Well done!

6: I found a way to break across that one-way arrow next to the entrance and shorten the route. Result is now 3 of each.

7: The starting platform was long enough that I managed to isolate a worker and get the first two bridges sorted out. After that, I let him jump onto the third platform and make the final bridge. Improved to 3 of each.

15: Thanks for clearing this one up. Good use of the platformers and gliders to cross the gap at the top.

18: Nice idea to stack onto the raised platform. You utilised the stackers and shimmiers to full effect.

22: Wonderful use of the landscape here! That last platformer placement was clever indeed, and you distributed the lemmings well just like the skills here.

23: Outstanding solution, and probably one of my favourites! I particularly like the start where you glided the second lemming over the fencer to create a completed platformer bridge, and the way you contained those lemmings.

26: Down to 2 of each. I remember playing this level on the Original PSP version. I think that one had 2 bashers. Similar kind of stuff here. It's only a matter of where to put those fencers.

33: Nicely done! You utilised the narrow parts of the level to your advantage, particularly when you turned the glider round before cloning him to land in the right direction to make a platformer over the fire trap.

Other 7: Well spotted finding the higher route and saving a platformer! I also noticed that the entrance is clearly visible ahead of the stackers (And Terrain in general), which is pretty annoying.

[WillLem]

Now that 12.9 is out and we have Jumpers, not to mention the Glider bug fix, shall we do this one again?

EDIT: Hang fire for now, I'm waiting to see what's happening with the official conversions first. If we do do this challenge again, I'd prefer it to be with the fully restored versions of the levels (if only because decorative terrain always proves useful for this challenge!).

[Minim]

The level attachments are still there, and the discussion for the future of official conversions hasn't been updated for at least 48 hours so I think it's best to leave any graphical changes as is for this challenge thread. The Moss-on-steel bug - which has been mentioned that solutions involving this shouldn't count - has been fixed already, and I don't feel like reverting it back. I'm just trying to keep the number of changes to a minimum whilst remaining as inclusive and fair as possible for everyone.

Looks like we will have to start over again. I'll mention more in my opening post regarding further details on changes.

[WillLem]

@Minim - I think Proxima is currently preparing a conversion for Challenge purposes. It's probably worth waiting for these, as they will likely feature some restoration of the decorative terrain.

[Minim]

@Minim - I think Proxima is currently preparing a conversion for Challenge purposes. It's probably worth waiting for these, as they will likely feature some restoration of the decorative terrain.

Agreed. Thanks for updating me on this. I think this is the post you meant. Somehow it seemed to be obscured by all the later posts on that thread.

[WillLem]

Yeah, ignore that little bit of squabble! Proxima will do a great job at maintaining the packs, I'm sure. And, ultimately, it's way more important that we're all talking about the same packs when we do challenges.