[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?

[Minim]

With one person improving on the other solutions and vice versa I have to admit this really is a never ending rivalry between the two of us. For some reason I forgot to upload my Holiday replay bundle! I've put it up at the bottom of this post.

My Comments on WillLem's Frost and Hail solutions

Spoiler

Frost 5: You used 3 platformers, but I can confirm a 2 of each solution is possible, by gliding your worker onto the central spike and cloning the second platformer to bridge across them. Between the two hatches I used a left fencer to create a holding pit and a stacker to get them out.

Frost 14: I was able to skip the first stacker by letting Lemmings 2 and 3 glide over the gap. I used the Tame 11 reacher method with Lem 2 to isolate a worker. The gap is just enough for Lemming 1's platformer to bridge across to safety without Lem 4 falling off.

Hail 1: Well done! Similar to my method, but better balance of skills here.

Hail 3: Great job on this horrible level! I never saw that only one fencer was needed to get across the "Y" rather than two. I like your jumping glider method to make it onto the overhang.

Hail 4: You went the outside route, which is what most players would do. But there is just enough room between the two steel blocks to take an inner route. Precision is key. I also used the terrain physics to my advantage here. Replay attached.

Hail 5: Sorry I didn't post a replay of this earlier, considering you've only managed 9 of each, but now I can proudly say I've proved it. I needed to be creative to stack quickly enough to make a safe fall before the 4th lemming splats to make a 3 of each solution possible. Because the fall is so steep I needed to also create a safety bridge along the edge of the spike. Replay attached.

Hail 7: Remarkable improvement here! I didn't think you could make it across the hanging ledge, but well done.

Hail 11: Good work, but I managed 4 of each already last month. This is a great challenge though, as you'll need to use almost everything you've learnt to achieve this, including Wild 17's "Count-stacking" trick.

Hail 16: I didn't think you had enough time to stack up and make a safe drop for the others but well played there. I was able to improve on that technique though to 7 of each by chopping the top off the ramp with a fencer, thus making the drop just a little bit shorter. Replay attached.

[WillLem]

With one person improving on the other solutions and vice versa I have to admit this really is a never ending rivalry between the two of us.

I've enjoyed the rivalry, it's certainly pushed me to become a better Lemmings player! I've finally finished all the Holiday levels, results/replays above.

This has been a very enjoyable challenge! I look forward to the next one!

[Minim]

Nice work finishing off the Holiday levels, oh, and Merry Christmas! Here are my comments (The last ones ) on WillLem's Flurry and Blitz solutions:

Spoiler

Flurry 6 and Blitz 13: I managed to narrow both of them to 6 of each. Replays attached.

Flurry 8: Took the lower route and lowered the total to 7 of each.

Flurry 9: Good work, but I already found a way to save the third fencer. Result is still 2 of each. I hope that my replay is attached in the bundle somewhere.

Flurry 10: I simply changed the final fencer you used into a stacker/shimmier, improving the result to 5 of each.

Blitz 1 and 2: Both down to 6 of each. Replays should be in the bundle. On Blitz 1, you wasted 2 fencers on the ramp near the end, whereas I was able to create a safety bridge with the remaining building skills. Good job splitting the worker from the rest, but I was able to go one step further and let the worker "jump" over the steel block. In your solution you decided to complete the bridge, and that's made the solution needlessly more complicated without those other lemmings kept at bay.

Blitz 4: Nice improvement here using the Fun 2 technique!

Blitz 6: Usually the basher isn't placed there to get 100% but with that inverted fencer and use of the stackers to hold the others you made it look easy. Well done.

Blitz 7: I think I must've rushed this level considering how well I did on Blitz 2, a similar level to this, but more importantly you didn't. You did well to distribute the skills evenly here.

Blitz 9 and 11: Down to 7 of each. Replay attached for 11, while Blitz 9's replay should be in the bundle. For 9, I took about 2 more lower routes and was able to distribute the walkers, stackers and platformers evenly. I had to use walkers right at the end to meet the lose 0 requirement.

Blitz 15: Already found a way to save the extra platformer you used to create a safety bridge. Result is still 5 of each.

[WillLem]

Nice work finishing off the Holiday levels, oh, and Merry Christmas!

Thanks Minim, once again I had a great time playing through this challenge.

If you'd be up for carrying this on, maybe we could take on some of the forum packs that use original skills only! I'm thinking:

Let's Go! The WillLem Levels
GeoffLems
DoveLems
ArtLems
SEBLems
Reverse Lemmings
Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings
Doomsday Lemmings
Ski Sloping Lemmings
Zemmings

I'm sure there are loads of others, but doing a few of these to begin with could be a fun challenge... maybe start with the smaller packs?

What say you!

[Minim]

No problem, WillLem. I'm really glad that somebody's had fun.

This Challenge thread really reflects on the official levels. Custom level pack challenges can go elsewhere. I think Reverse levels would be quite boring, as most of these levels go from bottom to top, examples being Fun 2, 3 and 10, not to mention the Superlemming level.

As a compromise, I could set up the Extra Official Levels pack for you if you're interested, though that will be the last set of official levels. Hopefully we can find interesting new gimmicks here but it's highly doubtful.

[WillLem]

As a compromise, I could set up the Extra Official Levels pack for you if you're interested, though that will be the last set of official levels.

Sure, let's do it. Even if we don't find any new techniques, it's still great fun to find your own solution to a level.

Where do challenges for unofficial packs go...?

[Minim]

OK! The Extra levels are out.

Also, yesterday I decided to check some of the potential nuke solutions, and I solved two of them so far: Genesis 9's "Test Map" and Sunsoft 18's "Sunsoft Special". The latter could probably be done using ccx's incredible "Lose 1" technique, the same trick he applied on Tame 1, though I've yet to learn this technique let alone pull this off myself.

Another two levels that may be impossible without requiring extra skills are Present 15 "Evil whisper" (Already increased the skill count to 50) and Present 6 "No time for a detour". The former has a complicated terrain layout above and below the exit, and also, you can't get across the steel block without having to use two nuke bombers. In the latter, because there's so little time and there's no way to work around the flame without nuking you'll need to clone an awful lot of lemmings to make the long route work in the time limit, particularly around the leader. Using the skills provided the I can get the first lemming recorded in as early as frame 896. Considering there are 1020 frames and therefore 124 frames (around 7 seconds) to work around, that's not much leeway at all, and makes the challenge on this level tedious to execute.

[WillLem]

Finished Genesis levels. I thoroughly enjoyed these, there are quite a lot of new tricks and solutions which surprisingly fit the new skill set very well! The levels with a Lemcat next to them are those which I feel are particularly good: almost like they were made for the new skills.

Looking forward to seeing how you got on with these!

[Minim]

Ah, sorry for the late response WillLem. I was busy inspecting all the levels for nuke solutions and then I lost interest in it for a moment, therefore I haven't kept myself a complete record. Thanks for your continued interest in this Challenge thread. Also yesterday, I seemed to have dozed off while watching your replays for the first half of the rank! I must remind myself to take a closer look at these replays again soon. At least I was still able to make some significant improvements in some of the later levels.

Anyway, out of all levels, I've confirmed that 2P 30 and Sunsoft 25 are the remaining levels that are possible with nuke. These replays are in the bundle along with my initial attempt at Present 6.

Now, some comments on the Genesis levels:

Spoiler

Genesis 17: Impressive! It's risky taking the higher route with all those flame traps, but you managed it confidently.

Genesis 32: Well done getting the lemmings home in time. I like the way you used the swimmer to ascend the water pool too.

Genesis 36: Love the timing of the second lemming jumping over the signpost before the stacker completes the stack. Beautiful!

Genesis 38: I managed the get the lems down the opposite side and lower the skill count to 3 of each.

Genesis 39: Improved this to 2 of each quite easily. No need to hold the pack.

Genesis 42: Nice work trapping the others but yeah, this is a nasty layout and a 0 loss solution is indeed impossible. I managed 6x with a lose 1 solution, but I'm sure this can be improved further.

Genesis 43: Down to 15 of each and yes, this is a fiddly one to execute.

Genesis 44: Annoyingly, a 2-of-each, lose 2 solution seems so far to be out of reach. I was able to get 5x lose 1 and 3x lose 2 solutions though.

Genesis 46: Down to 11 of each by taking the right side. 10 might be doable if I can speed up that fencer.

Genesis 47: I cut this right down to 4 of each. A fencer/platformer works just as well to navigate up that crooked wall, rather than stackers.

[WillLem]

Ah, sorry for the late response WillLem. I was busy inspecting all the levels for nuke solutions and then I lost interest in it for a moment, therefore I haven't kept myself a complete record.

No worries, it's good to have this as something to come back to every now and again so no rush on it.

Now, some comments on the Genesis levels:

Spoiler

Genesis 17: Impressive! It's risky taking the higher route with all those flame traps, but you managed it confidently.

Genesis 32: Well done getting the lemmings home in time. I like the way you used the swimmer to ascend the water pool too.

Genesis 36: Love the timing of the second lemming jumping over the signpost before the stacker completes the stack. Beautiful!

Genesis 38: I managed the get the lems down the opposite side and lower the skill count to 3 of each.

Genesis 39: Improved this to 2 of each quite easily. No need to hold the pack.

Genesis 42: Nice work trapping the others but yeah, this is a nasty layout and a 0 loss solution is indeed impossible. I managed 6x with a lose 1 solution, but I'm sure this can be improved further.

Genesis 43: Down to 15 of each and yes, this is a fiddly one to execute.

Genesis 44: Annoyingly, a 2-of-each, lose 2 solution seems so far to be out of reach. I was able to get 5x lose 1 and 3x lose 2 solutions though.

Genesis 46: Down to 11 of each by taking the right side. 10 might be doable if I can speed up that fencer.

Genesis 47: I cut this right down to 4 of each. A fencer/platformer works just as well to navigate up that crooked wall, rather than stackers.

Thanks for your kind comments, I think these levels lent themselves really well to the newskills format. Well done on the improvements: you often see things I miss so it's good to see a different approach.

Genesis 44 is another one where if only there was a ledge for the swimmer to climb out of, it'd be a perfect solve!

Anyways, some of the Present levels are the same as the Genesis ones, so for those I've just kept the same score/replay. For ease of data-gathering though, I'll present records as a full set. The Sunsoft ones are slight variations which make the levels slightly more difficult!

I'm looking forward to getting to the 2P ones!

[WillLem]

Added my results for Present & Sunsoft. There was quite a run of Sunsoft levels that required additional original skills to get a 100% solution, and with Sunsoft 14 No world without you being the same as Genesis 43 A group of entrances, and one that I just didn't want to spend the time stack-building on all over again, I found a nice elegant 2 of each solution by adding climbers as well: check it out!

[Minim]

Tihis time, I've decided to have a go at all the Present and Sunsoft levels too. All improvement replays (and a few older ones too) attached in the bundle. There are lots of levels to comment on here, so I've split them into two separate spoiler tags.

Present Comments

Spoiler

1: With a tweak of the release rate I was able to save that fencer that you used on the well.

4: Nicely done going the short route, but the long route is far easier for this level. Down to 3 of each.

5: Interestingly, I was able to improve by taking the long route to this level too. Down to 3 of each.

7: Cool solution! Doing this level properly though, I managed to reduce this to 4 of each thanks to the Replay Editor.

8: Now 3 of each, along with Sunsoft 6. Too easy for a replay. I simply cloned the rightmost fencer when it was close enough to the top part of the scales to get the others down.

9: Improved to 1 of each. No replay needed here either. I used in order a Glider, Platformer, Fencer and Stacker (With a walker or shimmier to cancel once the gap across is made)

10: Down to 2 of each. I found a quicker way down to the bottom to make a safety bridge for the others.

14: Now 1 of each. Unlike others, this 1 of each is quite hard to spot.

23: Like "Keep Step" I can reduce this to 3 of each. Why did you take the higher route insead of cut across the terrain like you did before?

25: Nice job! I didn't see that one-pixel ledge inside there.

27: Unlucky. This is doable with the new skills though. My replay shows an 8 of each solution, and is one of the rare occurences where the last lemming does the most work.

28: Improved to 5 of each. You can fence into the pits to rescue them.

30: Down to 4 of each. I was able to find a more direct approach to the exit.

Sunsoft Comments

Spoiler

2: On the second island I was able to perform a long fencer, thus reducing the solution to 2 of each. I also ended up not using any stackers at all.

3: One of those D'oh moments. I built over that last structure instead of fenced through it. You ended up saving more skills. Good job.

4: I managed to save a stacker, bringing the solution down to 7 of each.

7: Excellent use of the fencer and cloner here. Well done!

9: Cut right down to 3 of each. I also went the long way at first, but suddenly found a more direct approach that works better.

12: Nice elegant solution using the top route! I made a bit of mess attempting the lower route and thus having to do more within the tight time limit.

14: This level is still doable with the new skills. With fewer lemmings about I was able to reduce it to 13 of each.

15: Remember Crazy 7? This one is doable too with new skills. OK, I think after looking at your previous post this level is what you were talking about. But anyway, I did it and managed 11 of each here.

16: This one is surprisingly doable thanks to hidden breaks in the steel (And it is probably the best puzzle out there too). My record is 7 of each.

20: Now 1 of each. I platformed onto the circular obstacle on the left side, cut through the grass on the right and disarmed the traps with the new leader. Finally, I used a walker to turn the platformer back in the right direction.

24: Improved to 6 of each. I also seemed to have found a new trick near the end of the level whilst trying to ascend through a thin horizontal bar (Up to 5 pixels tall), which I thought was going to reduce my method even further, but ended up having no difference. Basically, when reaching the bar, the last stacker is positioned either to the right or the middle of the previous stack when facing right (and vice versa). It also must touch the bar above for this trick to work. As soon as the lemming comes back to the right, immediately assign the stacker on the same stack where you built the last stacker. Select a walker or shimmier at the appropriate time and there should be a 1 pixel-gap between the short stack and the bottom of the bar, therefore the lemmings will be able to ascend without needing a fencer.

27: Nice job! I was a bit lazy and simply assigned gliders to all of them. Never knew the left side could be used as a platform. Well spotted!

28: Improved to 6 of each. I like your method coming into the exit from the opposite direction though, but that turned out to be costly.

30: Down to 2 of each. The release rate was just low enough for me to take advantage and trap the lemmings closer to the exit without needing a cloned stack.

[WillLem]

Loved your solutions to Present 7, 14 (this one in particular - very neat!), and Sunsoft 16, 20 and 30 - some genius stuff going on here.

The trick you used in Sunsoft 24; I'm wondering whether it could have made a difference in some of the previous levels! That said, I'm finding that stackers and fencers tend to be used at a very similar rate, and saving one often means you have to use the other. That said, you tend to do a great job of saving both!

Regarding Sunsoft 14 and 15 - I was actually talking about 14 with the climber. It's the same solution as a previous Genesis level (A group of entrances) and I just really didn't fancy going at it with all those stackers again so I added a climber. I know that's technically against the rules of this challenge, but since it's essentially the same level as before but with only 2 lems, I just went ahead for the sake of experimentation.

Same with Sunsoft 15 - I just wasn't in a stacker mood so I added the climber again!

With Sunsoft 23, I think I just genuinely didn't see the same solution as last time, but I generally do like to try out different things when presented with the same challenge again... I guess in this case it cost me a few skills!

On with the 2Player levels now I think! I've played through them again with the regular skills just for fun; I made it so that each exit would only let 50% of the Lemmings in - makes for some quite interesting challenges! Looking forward to see how they can be tackled with the new skills...

[WillLem]

Results updated for 2-Player and Sega levels. The Sega levels are the first batch to not contain any impossible/nuke-solution levels (although tbf there are only 12 levels!), and the 2-Players are the first to contain levels requiring the use of 0 skills! An interesting bunch...

[Minim]

I tried the 2P levels as well, along with the first 3 levels of SEGA. Thanks for completing these. I went off those after trying to find the best solution for SEGA 3. Anyway, more comments on the 2P levels and one of the SEGA levels, but beforehand I'll post some of my non 100% results here.

8: 5 of each, lost 1
20: 3 of each, lost 1
30: 30 of each, lost 30

The first two are straightforward as you need to go round the outside of the level. On 8, the left side is shorter than the right. 30 is a more optimised nuke solution. Here I basically edited its text file by removing 10 cloner assignments, and voila!

Spoiler

4: Narrowed down to 7 of each. It was 8 initially, but after looking at your replay I realised that your method of safety bridge creation in the middle was better, and the gaps were short enough for the platformer to be cloned. I was able to combine them together for an improved result.

5: This is easily doable with 1 of each. I platformed to the exit with a glider, then created a stacker of the left edge to "save" the others.

10: Down to 6 of each. I thought my method of trapping the lemmings here would be worth watching.

11: Improved to 6 of each. For one side, I used 6 fencers at the bottom of the grid to ensure safety. The other side I used building skills to rescue 'em.

21: Slightly improved to 9 of each. A slightly different approach to the exit, but saves a few building skills.

25: Easily doable with 2 of each. A walker stops a fencer as soon as he makes a dent in the pipe. Followed by 2 stackers to ascend up the middle towards the exit.

Sega 3: Great job. I was dying to find out the 3 of each solution, and I keep missing out by 1 skill.