[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?

[Crane]

Another improvement.  7 skills, 0 losses for Mayhem 18.  In truth, the 6 skills, 2 losses solution might be reducible to 6 skills, 1 loss if the leftmost Stoner is replaced with a Glider/Cloner combo.

(Note... on the overall tally on the first page, Mayhem 30 should say "7 skills, 1 loss OR 8 skills, 0 losses", unless you found a way to save that lemming.

[Crane]

First attempts at the first few Wicked levels.

Wicked 1: 5 skills, 0 losses
Wicked 2: impossible
Wicked 3: 3 skills, 0 losses (can be easily changed to 2 skills, 1 loss if you replace the first Stacker with a Stoner)
Wicked 4: 9 skills, 0 losses (can be easily changed to 8 skills, 1 loss if you replace the rightmost Stacker with a Stoner)
Wicked 5: 1 skill, 0 losses
Wicked 6: 5 skills, 2 losses
Wicked 7: 3 skills, 0 losses
Wicked 8: 4 skills, 0 losses (no replay attached, but simple enough... 4 Fencers, one after the other, then a Platformer, and use a Glider or Walker on the lemming that will step off the incomplete bridge).

There also seems to be a player bug... changing the release rate while the game is paused doesn't get recorded in the replays.

[ccexplore]

Finally got Fun 8 down to 1 of each, lost 0.  Also works on the repeat, Tricky 22.

[ccexplore]

Tweaked Proxima's Mayhem 3 solutions to "2 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 0".  Despite some leftover skills in 2 of each, one of each seems to be just out of reach so far.

Finally found the elusive "1 of each, lost 1" solution for Mayhem 3, it's a totally different solution from Proxima's.

[ccexplore]

Fun 24 (easier version of Mayhem 3) improved to 1 of each, lost 0.  This is yet different solution from Mayhem 3's 1 of each lost 1, but cannot work on Mayhem 3 due to its tighter time limit.

[Crane]

Nice work ccexplore.  I decided to have a bash at some of the later Havoc levels, because why not?!

Havoc 10 - 1 skill, 0 losses
Havoc 11 - impossible
Havoc 17 - 1 skill, 1 loss OR 2 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 18 - 9 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 19 - 4 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 20 - 5 skills, 0 losses

[Crane]

And a handful of earlier Havoc levels.

Havoc 1 - 3 skills, 2 losses OR 4 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 5 - 4 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 9 - 3 skills, 0 losses

[Minim]

Phew! Having a hard time keeping up with these replays! Keep 'em coming though. I'm still on the lookout for any potential errors here and there, like I just found with WillLem's Wicked 17 solution.

Comments on WillLem's Wild levels.

Spoiler

1: For both that and Wicked 1, really nice technique you used there at the start! Round the outside methods are overlooked particularly in a save all state, but fencing a stacked platform to allow the platformer to glide and land safely works perfectly for these scenarios.

3: Improved to 5 of each (Previously 8). Not too hard if you know some of the tricks I've mentioned on earlier threads. Used a few cloners to good effect here. Also started the rescue bridge from the second silver platform, rather than the third which you did instead.

5: Improved to 4 of each. I took the higher road here and fenced the same stacker on both sides!

13: This is doable in the time limit, but very tedious considering the long length and repetitiveness. Still, I'm re-releasing this level with the skill count increased to 70. Hopefully with this many fencers and walkers you'll be able to "speed fence" and get everyone home before time elapses. I saw your method and it's really good, but the fencer's a drag. I did the last bit slightly different though, by bridging the water from the ramp, rather than the chain. Here's a replay of a 65x solution because I used 65 walkers. I reached the goal in 2:40.

15: This might be doable in 6 if you clone the disarmer and let the cloned lemming fence the wall on the right, saving a stacker, but it's unconfirmed.

17: Improved to 3 of each. Replay attached. I used a new technique which enabled me to fence two walls at once: "Count-stacking" Which is, on a slope of 2 pixels or higher, stack in the direction away from the slope, count the number of bricks where the last brick layed is parallel to the slope then clone the stacker.

As for Wild 8: I think you're right that a save-all solution is impossible with low time-limit here, and given that the wall and the drop are too steep I probably won't re-release this level.

And now, the Wicked levels

Spoiler

3: Nice solution! But now it's been "backrouted". Down to 2 of each. Used the clone stacker to hold the others and took the left route instead. Here's my replay attached.

6: WillLem, good job with the outside route again, but lemmings can walk over those bubble walls, just like Crane did with his lose 2 solution. Distribute the fencers (And walkers, potentially) with the other skills, and you should get a lower record than 13.

7: Good use of the chains. Crane was able to beat your solution however by stacking on the edge of the third platform. The result is now 3 of each.

9: Now 5 of each. This is easily doable with 5 platformers if you use the green platform half way.

10: Now 7 of each. Outside-on-the-left route is not necessary here. Replay attached.

11: Sorry, WillLem, but you used 6 fencers instead of 5. However, I'm not ruling out the possibility that 5 can be done though. With the 3 walkers, shimmier and 2 platformers you've left over I'm sure this is possible to rectify.

12: Now 5 of each. Used the stackers for multiple purposes here: Holding the lemmings, and bridging the smaller gaps.

13: You actually used 13 stackers, so your result is 13 of each.

17: Not only you tried a symettrical solution, you drowned the fencer that tried to rescue those swimmers, thus your result is 6 of each, lost 1. I quickly got this down to 2 of each, lost 0. Replay attached.

BTW, really enjoyed Crane's solution to Mayhem 8! Cool concept indeed. Oh, and about ccx's newest solution to Fun 8/Tricky 22: I wonder if this trick can be repeated for Wicked 16?

Anyway, let's get on to Havoc (Crane).

Spoiler

5: Good use of platformers and the landscape to get everyone down to the bottom safely for the final fencer.

10: Well done! I like that you placed the stacker after the first trap before letting the disarmer do the rest.

19: I forgot the tunnel solution's not possible anymore. Great job getting round that and into the hidden exit. You distributed the skills evenly too.

Now, more of my results from Taxing.
15: 4 of each, lost 1
Was inspired by ccx's under route for Fun 5 and decided to use it here too. Replay attached.

20: 6 of each
Went under the first web and managed to save 2 fencers going that route. The web you land on first is annoying, as you can't platform straight after fencing. Because of that, I can't see 5x being possible.

23: 11 of each, lost 1
The start was pretty tough with the high release rate. This result I think can be improved.

24: 1 of each
Not actually too hard if you look at the terrain's layout. Remember to increase the release rate here.

27: 4 of each
Needed three stackers to reach the ledge, along with something else to create a holding pit; followed by a platformer and three fencers to break through the ceiling safely.

Really annoyed with Taxing 25 at the moment. The exit platform is reachable with 2 of each, like in Fun 19 but there aren't enough skills to prevent too many lemmings from dying. I wonder if precise adjusting the release rate at the right times will help get this bridge done more quickly, and thus save enough lemmings for the lowest x.

The results and the next version of OhNo will be uploaded in a few minutes time.

[ccexplore]

As for Wild 8: I think you're right that a save-all solution is impossible with low time-limit here, and given that the wall and the drop are too steep I probably won't re-release this level.

Actually it turns out to be possible, but you also won't need to re-release the level after all, because 10 of each is sufficient to lost 0.  Barely make it in time though!

[WillLem]

Spoiler

13: This is doable in the time limit, but very tedious considering the long length and repetitiveness. Still, I'm re-releasing this level with the skill count increased to 70. Hopefully with this many fencers and walkers you'll be able to "speed fence" and get everyone home before time elapses. I saw your method and it's really good, but the fencer's a drag. I did the last bit slightly different though, by bridging the water from the ramp, rather than the chain. Here's a replay of a 65x solution because I used 65 walkers. I reached the goal in 2:40.

17: Improved to 3 of each. Replay attached. I used a new technique which enabled me to fence two walls at once: "Count-stacking" Which is, on a slope of 2 pixels or higher, stack in the direction away from the slope, count the number of bricks where the last brick layed is parallel to the slope then clone the stacker.

Something was going wrong with the Wild 13 replay you attached at first, but then I realised I had to edit my copy for 65 of each skill! This is a brilliant solution, I love the overlapping worker Lemmings to build that final bridge. I think this copious-skill approach is the only way to get it down to under the time limit. I could only manage it in 30 seconds over the time limit. Well sussed out!

You've discovered some great tricks here - there are probably quite a few levels where cloning stackers would bring the overall skill count down. I don't have anywhere near the level of tenacity to go back and do this, I'm pretty happy with my results and I'm glad people are finding ways to improve the scores!

Spoiler

11: Sorry, WillLem, but you used 6 fencers instead of 5. However, I'm not ruling out the possibility that 5 can be done though. With the 3 walkers, shimmier and 2 platformers you've left over I'm sure this is possible to rectify.

17: Not only you tried a symettrical solution, you drowned the fencer that tried to rescue those swimmers, thus your result is 6 of each, lost 1. I quickly got this down to 2 of each, lost 0. Replay attached.

Whoops! These were genuine mistakes - I was very tired last night when I made my way through Wicked. Knew I should've left it until today! Anyways, I've now rectified the above (changed my result for Wicked 11 to 6 of each and saved that Fencer in Wicked 17!), replays updated.

Working through Havoc but need to go to sleep now. Here are my results/replays for the first 5 levels:

Havoc 1 - 4 of each (used cloners to good effect here as inspired by your Wild 13 solution, but couldn't find a way to improve the score).
Havoc 2 - 25 of each (whew...!!! that was EFFORT!)
Havoc 3 - 4 of each
Havoc 4 - 10 of each
Havoc 5 - Improved to 3 of each

I'll look forward to doing the rest of these tomorrow

[Crane]

This might have already been done, but here is a solution to Tricky 1 that uses only 1 of everything with no losses.

[Crane]

So I've managed to beat Fun 21 / Mayhem 26 with 3 skills, 0 losses, but there's a catch... it only works on the DOS version that doesn't have water at the edges of the level.  As a result it probably doesn't count, but here's the replay and the modified level.

[Minim]

So I've managed to beat Fun 21 / Mayhem 26 with 3 skills, 0 losses, but there's a catch... it only works on the DOS version that doesn't have water at the edges of the level.  As a result it probably doesn't count, but here's the replay and the modified level.

I'm glad you're thinking about the DOS version but for the purpose of this challenge nope. Sorry. Object modifications are not allowed. Still, great job with that replay though, particularly on the second tunnel. Cloning a lemming before tunnelling and letting the cloner build to keep the tunnel going is inspired. I also like the fact you freed the lemmings with a cloner. I also like your Tricky 1 solution! You really gave everything to keep those masses at bay within the limit.

So now, I'm sharing more of my Mayhem results here.
4: 4 of each, lost 1
Used the quickest solution. As soon as the last fencer cuts down on the terrain turn him back to a walker, and everyone will approach the exit rather than the drop.

6: 2 of each, lost 1
Same as Tricky 9

7: 6 of each, lost 0
Replay attached. Works for both this one and Fun 20.

9: 6 of each, lost 1
Replay attached. Works for both this one and Fun 29. Lots of tight spaces here.

10: 5 of each, lost 12
Found good use for the shimmiers, and was able to stretch across to the exit with 4 platformers. A messy solution however.

17: 4 of each, lost 2
Replay attached. Again used the shimmiers to full effect. This is close enough to a "symmetrical" solution.

19: 1 of each, lost 1
Same as Tricky 11

21: 2 of each, lost 1
Because it's 100%, I had to think of a quicker way to rescue the splat start. I ended up using 2 platformers.

22: 6 of each
Used more stackers where the fencer wasn't needed in WillLem's solution: One on the second candle of the second chandelier, and two on the first statue of the bridge.

25: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each, lost 0
Replays attached. Utilises the raised double platformer to full effect.

Finally, My comments to WillLem's Havoc results

Spoiler

2: Room for improvement but good job nonetheless! Now down to 15 of each but I'll update the level pack at 25 of each to make sure your replay still works. My replay is attached. I'm sure 14 is not out of the question if I used the same technique from the second half of the level to get them out of the pit in the first half.
EDIT: Improved to 13 of each. I spared two more stackers with this new solution, but also evened out the platformers quite nicely.

3: Now down to 3 of each. I "speed-fenced" the first pipe, creating a pit for the others, and used two full stackers to create a safe drop, sparing one (+1 shimmier) to free the others.

4: Brilliant solution! I like the fact you worked up towards the ceiling and then multi-tasked with platformers and gliders at the end to get everyone home safely. On closer inspection, the fencer through the first icicle is exactly in the right position unlike the ones used for the other four icicles, as it raises the created ramp by a single pixel in comparison to the other 4 positions. The fourth icicle along is one area where the stacker wouldn't have been necessary had you known about this trick. On the other hand, you'd probably need walkers to stop the platformer once he completes the bridge to make sure this raised ramp idea works. Because of all this, I wonder if 9 is doable.

5: You beat Crane this time! Well done. (And I laughed at that bit near the end while watching the group of lemmings turn around on that smaller stacker)

[WillLem]

Finished Havoc! Results & replays above.

This has been an excellent challenge! It would be fun to do the same challenge with a mixture of new & old skills as well... I guess someone would have to take on the task of selecting which skills were available for each level.

Some comments on Minim's comments:

Spoiler

2: Room for improvement but good job nonetheless! Now down to 15 of each but I'll update the level pack at 25 of each to make sure your replay still works. My replay is attached. I'm sure 14 is not out of the question if I used the same technique from the second half of the level to get them out of the pit in the first half.
EDIT: Improved to 13 of each. I spared two more stackers with this new solution, but also evened out the platformers quite nicely.

3: Now down to 3 of each. I "speed-fenced" the first pipe, creating a pit for the others, and used two full stackers to create a safe drop, sparing one (+1 shimmier) to free the others.

4: Brilliant solution! I like the fact you worked up towards the ceiling and then multi-tasked with platformers and gliders at the end to get everyone home safely. On closer inspection, the fencer through the first icicle is exactly in the right position unlike the ones used for the other four icicles, as it raises the created ramp by a single pixel in comparison to the other 4 positions. The fourth icicle along is one area where the stacker wouldn't have been necessary had you known about this trick. On the other hand, you'd probably need walkers to stop the platformer once he completes the bridge to make sure this raised ramp idea works. Because of all this, I wonder if 9 is doable.

Great job getting Havoc 2 down to 13 -

Spoiler

I wish I'd checked whether they could drop onto that steel block on the left without needing a glider, would've saved me a lot of work!

Speed fencing - is that the technique you used on Wild 13?

Glad you liked my Havoc 4 solution - I was just determined not to have to add more Fencers!

Best,

-WillLem

Check out my final results for this challenge.

[Minim]

Well done on finishing off Havoc (And thus, the entire OhNo collection). I even decided to have a go at the rest myself. I'll have a look at your replays soon and we'll compare.

I'm glad you've enjoyed the challenge. However, mixing up new and old skills would make things too complicated. Would you (or anyone else for that matter) like me to upload Holiday Lemmings, Covox, Prima?

Speed fencing - is that the technique you used on Wild 13?

Yes indeed.

EDIT: OK, I just saw your Havoc replays. So, only one improvement I've already made out of the eight remaining levels. You've certainly proved to be a better player after learning all these tricks. Here are my responses:

Spoiler

10: Good try, but Crane already beat you to it. He gave the second lemming a stacker after the first trap, and held back the third and fourth lemmings with a walker and stacker respectively.

12: Excellent! I don't think this one can be beaten. Well done! Much better than my 4 stacker method.

16: Don't worry. It is hard without blockers, along with the high release rate and tight space. I managed this with 3 of each (And went a slightly different route). Replay attached.

17: Amazing! You used all the skills to great aplomb here. This is why we have these challenge threads.

19: Good try. Crane managed 4 of each on this level (And I don't think it's going to improve, considering that all four platformers are needed to cross the long gap). On two occasions he used the fencer as a wall to turn back the lemmings.

20: Absolutely brilliant! Well spotted to find and take the top route for the left entrance, rather than waste two fencers. I also like the way you abused the terrain on the bottom right. Creating a hole on top and building a platform inside it is inspired turnaround control.