[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?

[WillLem]

I assure you, it's equally frustrating for me when I try to help things run more smoothly and it's read as an attack, but hey, that's communication on the internet. It's hard to judge the tone of voice a post is written in, so it's easy for a small misunderstanding to lead to a big upset. I hope that won't stop us cooperating, since this looks like being a fun challenge (and it's been a long time since there was any activity here in Challenges).

I'm sure we can move forward positively and co-operatively. After all, this is a great forum to be part of and I find these challenges very interesting! Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I think my initial upset was more to do with the fact that I was fresh from a session battling with the levels making sure I got maximum saves each time, and I didn't get the fanfare of praise for my fantastic solutions that I was hoping for(!)

Joking aside, it's nice to be acknowledged when you're trying to contribute positively to a group effort. I do get that this isn't always the first thing on people's minds tho, and also that my contribution is an interpretation of the challenge rather than meeting it directly, which may or may not be helpful!

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

What I'm saying is that in terms of number of lemmings lost, it's equally good to save 50/50 as it is to save 60/50 with ten cloners. So the number of lemmings lost is a better way to write up the result, because that makes it really clear for the reader how good a solution is -- especially as we get to harder levels where we might well end up going over the 10-of-each for some levels.

OK... I get it now, I've updated my original post accordingly so it's more useful on these particular points. Thanks for the explanation!

Edit - in fact, I've realised that there have been times when I could have sometimes used Shimmiers to stop Stackers mid-stack rather than always Walkers... this would bring the numbers down as well...!

Understanding is a wonderful thing.

The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings

Indeed, that was ccexplore's point -- both versions of the challenge are interesting. What I'm hoping for is that eventually we'll have a list of the best results for each level in both categories: smallest N-of-each first and minimum losses second, and the other way around.

I'm looking forward to having a go at this as soon as I have NL reinstalled

In that case, if everyone's happy for me to go ahead with the maximum saves/minimum losses effort and deprioritise the skills part of the challenge for now, this suits my playing style better to be honest (N.B - I always generally aim to use the minimum number of skills anyway). My lists/solutions will therefore point to what's needed for maximum saves, being fairly liberal with the skills wherever needed.

[Proxima]

I think my initial upset was more to do with the fact that I was fresh from a session battling with the levels making sure I got maximum saves each time, and I didn't get the fanfare of praise for my fantastic solutions that I was hoping for(!)

Understandable! However, I'm going to attempt this myself without looking at other people's replays -- I will have a look afterwards!

Here's my first batch of results. I've attached replays for:

Fun 3, 2 of each 100%
Fun 8, 2 of each 100%
Fun 11, 2 of each lose 4
Fun 13, 1 of each 100%
Fun 24, 2 of each lose 2 (note: this still does not match the result from the old thread... neat solution though!)

Added these results to the OP of the topic.

[ccexplore]

Joking aside, it's nice to be acknowledged when you're trying to contribute positively to a group effort. I do get that this isn't always the first thing on people's minds tho

Ok, that's fair.  It is kind of true that we sometimes tend to not comment much on each other's efforts on these challenge threads save for the really impressive solutions every now and then.  I haven't had a chance to look at any specific solutions but I'm sure you made great efforts towards a good number of them, and every contribution helps.  Please don't let the lack of acknowledgement discourage you, the challenges are as much for your own enjoyment trying to meet them as they are for others to observe.

my contribution is an interpretation of the challenge rather than meeting it directly, which may or may not be helpful!

For recordkeeping purposes, we need to settle on a specific, fixed set of rules to define a particular challenge.  Otherwise it becomes chaos as people start tweaking both the rules and the levels to make a solution work out.  The records lost meaning when you don't know exactly what kind of extra "interpretations" gets included for the solution to work.  It's better to just say the level's impossible if that turns out to be the case.

Indeed, for clear recordkeeping we even insist on specifying what specific game engine or port is used for each challenge (eg. NeoLemmix for this one).  Because sometimes a solution that works in DOS Lemmings may not work or required much modification to work in other ports like Amiga Lemmings, because almost every game had slight variations in certain parts of their physics, and any little difference can potentially be just the thing that makes or breaks a particular solution, especially when it comes to challenges.

That's not to say a challenge-caliber solution involving tweaked rules and tweaked levels are useless; they are just not suitable for reporting results for that one particular challenge.  For a one-off, you can consider making it a custom level in your own pack.  Or if you can apply certain additional rules usefully across many levels, maybe you can start a new challenge thread with those rules.  Sometimes they evolve naturally: for example there once was a thread about "how many levels can be beaten in under a minute?"  Obviously not all levels can and that's fine.  Once we got through that, we started exploring variations like lowest number of minutes to beat the remaining levels, that naturally evolve from the original challenge.  I can imagine that we may eventually address the levels that cannot be solved for this challenge with some new variation evolved from the current challenge, like maybe "how few old skills do you need to add to solve" or something along that line.

[WillLem]

I haven't had a chance to look at any specific solutions but I'm sure you made great efforts towards a good number of them, and every contribution helps.  Please don't let the lack of acknowledgement discourage you, the challenges are as much for your own enjoyment trying to meet them as they are for others to observe.

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I can imagine that we may eventually address the levels that cannot be solved for this challenge with some new variation evolved from the current challenge, like maybe "how few old skills do you need to add to solve" or something along that line.

Thanks for your reply, I guess coz I'm still somewhat new I'm still getting used to the way things are approached on the forum, and I'm hoping that I can contribute something worthwhile in the meantime. Hence the maximum-saves angle - perhaps my results could indicate the minimum skills needed to save 100%, for instance. And then people can try to beat those scores, of course!

I was intending to do a Lemmings remix featuring both old and new skills, making it possible to save all Lemmings in every level. People's results & solutions for this challenge would help massively in getting that together. (Or - have I missed the boat and this is something that's already been done or in the pipeline?)

For recordkeeping purposes, we need to settle on a specific, fixed set of rules to define a particular challenge.  Otherwise it becomes chaos as people start tweaking both the rules and the levels to make a solution work out.

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That's not to say a challenge-caliber solution involving tweaked rules and tweaked levels are useless; they are just not suitable for reporting results for that one particular challenge.

This is fair enough. I do need to understand the point of the challenges more fully before participating, I think. This one just caught my eye because it's very close to an idea I'd had and I couldn't wait to dive in and get involved!

Thanks for the kind comments btw.

[Minim]

Wow, so much has gone on.   I did the first three levels of Taxing last night. Earlier this morning I just scanned all of WillLem's replays.

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

That means that although there are 10 cloners in the level file given, firstly, you can't use them freely because if you have, for example, a 2-of-each solution, you are making it worse by using extra cloners; secondly, if a level was not solvable with 10 of each, but might be solvable with a larger number of each, you are allowed to modify the level and report a solution for the larger number.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against you reporting the total number of skills used; it's just not part of this challenge as Minim originally proposed it, and so I wanted to make sure we are tackling the same challenge so as to avoid unnecessary effort.

Thanks for clearing that up, Proxima. While I was posting I do recall someone explaining Rule #2 on a separate challenge thread. That happened to be on the next page of the board.

So, after looking at WillLem's solutions, I noticed that he was using up all 10 Cloners on every level. I ignored the unnecessary cloners and inspected on the rest. As Proxima mentioned, it was one of those things I forgot to clarify. The only edited results I can accept are skill changes, like Tricky 8. Terrain and object modifications are forbidden. That's why Rule #1 - Solve the level - is first priority.

I think WillLem's save all idea is a more useful order than the other way round, particularly so that we can use the same replays for later levels. As soon as I started playing the Taxing levels I completely forgot that some of them are repeats of earlier levels with usually tougher requirements and less time. Taxing 1 was a perfect example of that.

Now, some spoilery comments on WillLem's save all solutions.

Spoiler

Fun 5: Great solution! Your Stacker-Walker-Platformer safety bridge is inspired. Now the question remains, can we save that fencer that you used for the top of that first crystal on the left?

Fun 12 & 15: Great use of the stacker on steps to hold the others back! Worker lemmings are usually NOT associated with Fun 12. I wonder if the same trick for that level can be used when criteria switch.

Fun 13: Good use of scenery here. Never thought about the left side, but after looking I was able to top that by replacing one of your holding walkers with a shimmier, making the final solution for this level 3 of each.

Fun 14: This is easily doable with 5 fencers.

Fun 16: This is the only level where you lost a lemming with a stoner. I beat this record while I was doing the Taxing equivalent. Here's a 6-skill lose 0 replay, one which already works for the harder level.

Fun 28: Great job using the outside route, and the use of swimmers. I thought with the walls surrounding both pools that swimmers would either never get out, or fall to their death; but you proved me wrong.

Tricky 8: I reduced this to 14 of each. I fenced through the tiny wall before the exit and therefore saved two stackers. I'll still be re-uploading the level with 16 of each though.

Tricky 11: I replaced one of the stacker stopping walkers with a shimmier, making this level 6 of each.

Tricky 18: My Fun 2 replay works here too, so that makes it 2 of each.

Tricky 19: I can improve this to 1 of each using a stacker walker to scale the 12-pixel wall.

[ccexplore]

Fun 12 improved to 1 of each, lose 2 OR 2 of each, lose 0

[edit: looks like WillLem already did the 2 each lose 0, removing attachment.  Minim's post hadn't been updated with WillLem's result at the time I tried this level so I wasn't aware.]

[WillLem]

So, after looking at WillLem's solutions, I noticed that he was using up all 10 Cloners on every level. I ignored the unnecessary cloners and inspected on the rest. As Proxima mentioned, it was one of those things I forgot to clarify. The only edited results I can accept are skill changes, like Tricky 8. Terrain and object modifications are forbidden. That's why Rule #1 - Solve the level - is first priority.

No worries, I mainly did this for my own satisfaction. Like I said, for the purposes of this challenge by all means ignore any solutions where I altered terrain (there are only 2 of them, 3 if you count Taxing 17 which is the same layout as Fun 23).

I think WillLem's save all idea is a more useful order than the other way round, particularly so that we can use the same replays for later levels.

Thanks! And yes - it's quite useful being able to load up a replay from an earlier level to fulfil a later level. Through doing this, however, I managed to improve a few of my records in the process.

And in reply to the comments on the solutions:

Spoiler

Fun 5: Great solution! Your Stacker-Walker-Platformer safety bridge is inspired. Now the question remains, can we save that fencer that you used for the top of that first crystal on the left?

Thanks! Took me a good while to figure this out - I wanted to avoid using the stoner for the drop at the left crystal at all costs. Managed to get it down to 9 of each by stacking over the crystal rather than fencing through it (replay attached above) - good shout!

Fun 14: This is easily doable with 5 fencers.

Haha yeah, I know - I realised that when the level came up again as Tricky 30. I've now updated my replay and results accordingly.

Fun 16: This is the only level where you lost a lemming with a stoner. I beat this record while I was doing the Taxing equivalent. Here's a 6-skill lose 0 replay, one which already works for the harder level.

This must be a mistake - so far I haven't lost a single Lemming the entire game! Have another look at my re-posted replays, maybe something went wrong when I uploaded them first time. My solution to Fun 16/Taxing 3 still uses 10 stackers, so you beat me on skill count anyway (great solution btw). But mine looks neater!

Fun 28: Great job using the outside route, and the use of swimmers. I thought with the walls surrounding both pools that swimmers would either never get out, or fall to their death; but you proved me wrong.

Thanks! One of my favourite things to do is explore the outer terrain of the original levels. It's great that NeoLemmix allows you to do this.

Tricky 8: I reduced this to 14 of each. I fenced through the tiny wall before the exit and therefore saved two stackers. I'll still be re-uploading the level with 16 of each though.

Of course!! Well spotted.

I've had great fun doing these. Check out my updated replays and see if there's anything else you could improve skill-count-wise whilst still keeping maximum saves.

[Proxima]

Fun 24: 2 of each, 100%. This improves on the result from the old thread.

[WillLem]

Fun 24: 2 of each, 100%. This improves on the result from the old thread.

That's a good one!

Playing this pack with only the new skills makes you an expert at using stacker/platformer combos to build upwards.

[Proxima]

And bouncing on that, here's Mayhem 3 with 4 of each. (The Fun 24 solution no longer works because of the time limit.) In the old thread, namida didn't find any solution to this one.

[WillLem]

And bouncing on that, here's Mayhem 3 with 4 of each. (The Fun 24 solution no longer works because of the time limit.) In the old thread, namida didn't find any solution to this one.

Just done this one myself! I needed 7 of each tho... (solution attached).

ALSO! I've now found a way to beat We all fall down 1 of each, 100% saved (also attached!) See if you can figure it out before you watch my replay! I got the idea from my solution to Mayhem 3, incidentally.

[ccexplore]

Ok, I got a "solution" for Tricky 28 ("Lost Something?"), but I don't think it should actually count.  The level in the original is solid steel for the steel block where the exit sits.  But the NeoLemmix conversion has all those decorative vines as regular terrain apparently cutting into the steel, making it no longer completely indestructible.  It seems a little wrong to count this as a solution when arguably the conversion of the level to NeoLemmix is not done accurately.  The decorative vines shouldn't be turning the steel into partial steel.

The level is probably impossible (ignoring nuke solutions) if the steel is completely solid, but as disappointing as that may be, it's a more honest result in my opinion.  Thoughts?

[edit: struck out part of sentence which is now proven false, see below]

[ccexplore]

The level is probably impossible (ignoring nuke solutions) if the steel is completely solid

So turns out it wasn't so bad to go with a nuke solution for this level, and hence the level is no longer impossible even with completely solid steel.  Attached is an attempt that uses 18 cloners (plus a few other skills) and loses 26 (remember to edit the level to increase the skill counts).  Given that I ended up saving 92 (level requires 90), it looks like I could probably get by with a few less cloners, and it's probably possible to lower the loss count a little as well.  Will leave that for others to explore.  The solution should probably also be re-verified (but the overall concept should still work) once the level is fixed to make the steel fully solid if we decide on that.

[WillLem]

Finally completed this challenge! I've now attached my replays for all levels to my results post above.

There were some very challenging levels amongst this lot, and I'm definitely feeling going ahead with a remix pack of the original game featuring both sets of skills. Playing through this has given me some great ideas of how to use the newer skills, so hopefully it will be an interesting pack.

Please let me know if this idea has already been done before I go ahead! I probably won't feature every level, just maybe the best 20 or 30 in a compilation pack.

I'll keep an eye on this challenge as well, some very interesting solutions appearing here!

WillLem

[Crane]

I managed to complete some of the harder ones for you.  These are my first attempts, so I'm not sure if they can be improved in regards to skills used.