Objects from Lemmings 3D - viable for NeoLemmix?

[Strato Incendus]

Just like in the neighbouring thread for objects from Lemmings Revolution, I'd like to go over the objects in Lemmings 3D this time (as they appear in the Practice rank) and discuss to what extent they might be worthwhile additions to NeoLemmix. Once again, the ones I'm in favour of are in green, the ones I consider redundant or actively harmful red. I'm also going to list possible tilesets that would be most suitable for such objects.

I guess this will be much shorter, because we can start with what we already have (those I kept in black):

Teleporters. Work in NeoLemmix exactly like in Lemmings 3D (=release-rate sensitive, with animation).
Tilesets: L2 Space, orig Marble, ohno Brick, namida Circuit, plom Psychedelic Mod, and many others!

Splitters. Work in NeoLemmix pretty much exactly like in Lemmings 3D, of course only turning lemmings left and right, meaning some lemmings can be sent back into the direction they came from, which can never happen in Lemmings 3D. L3D is actually the reason why I keep calling these "splitter blocks", because they were referred to as such in the game (but probably only because pretty much everything was a "block"; L3D also spoke of "one-way blocks").
Tilesets: ohno Brick, namida Candy, namida Machine, namida Clockwork, and a couple more

Highlight Lemming. Is a feature, not an object, and already exists in NeoLemmix, just like in L3D.
Tilesets: All.

Virtual Lemming. Virtually impossible to include in NeoLemmix!
Tilesets: None.

One-way arrows. We've had them since the dawn of time.
Tilesets: All.

Mud. I don't see how this is in any way different than regular water? If it's supposed to act like quicksand (like the sand pits in the L3D Golf tileset), or other types of "terrain" that lemmings can drown in, i.e. water that Swimmers should not be allowed to swim through:
1) We already have dedicated traps to simulate quicksand in namida's Desert tileset (and GigaLem's modification of it).
2) We already have "acid", in the form of water objects that behave like fire objects, for any type of water area that we want to make inaccessible to Swimmers.
Possible tilesets: orig Dirt, ohno Rock, namida Mineshaft

Deflector blocks. Only useful in a 3D setting. A similar thing is true for the "semi-floating blocks" in L3D that can't be climbed up, nor can lemmings slip through these low gaps as regular Walkers. This is something that won't work in NeoLemmix, because classic 2D lemmings can slip through any gap as tiny as a single pixel. If you want to make a straight wall inaccessible to Climbers without resorting to fire objects or Pillar spike traps, put a one-way field onto the wall pointing into the opposite direction: Since Climbers are located one pixel inside the wall, they will turn around and consequently let go of the wall as soon as they attempt to start climbing.
Possible tilesets: All.

Trampolines. This is the biggest thing in my book: Trampolines have been a regular part of Lemmings evers since Lemmings 2: The Tribes. Especially with the re-introduction of anti-splat pads, I think these would be a worthwhile inclusion: Like splat- and anti-splat pads, they should only affect Fallers, not regular Walkers, and they've never been release-rate sensitive in any Lemmings game. In Lemmings 3D, fall height affects the width of the ensuing jump; for simplification, I'd suggest to ignore this and simply define trampolines as "if a lemming moves into this area AND that lemming is a faller, that lemming performs the same motion as the regular Jumper skill". Meaning: No tumbler physics or similar required!
If these objects would be grouped together with splat- and anti-splat pads, they should only work if the lemming hits terrain inside their trigger area. But this is up for debate. Like anti-splat pads, trampolines would always prevent lemmings from splatting, no matter the fall height - but the resulting jump might catapult the lemming into a different type of danger zone, where the anti-splat pad wouldn't do the same (for example, over a Blocker / Stacker / Stoner holding the others back, into a gap / trap / fire area, etc.).
Possible tilesets: L2 Circus, L2 Cavelem, Raymanni Circus

Springs / Catapults. These would be very similar to trampolines, but release-rate sensitive, and they would affect regular lemmings walking onto them the same way as lemmings falling onto them from the top, like traps. In L3D, they're actually more similar to teleporters, not only due to their release-rate sensitivity, but also due to them having a defined start- and ending point: In contrast to trampolines, lemmings using catapults in L3D always land at the exact same target spot.
Meanwhile, in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, some types of catapults increase the difference to trampolines by the player being able to move them around - as such, e.g. L2 Circus has both trampolines and the canon that can shoot lemmings over gaps and walls. Others, in contrast, like the dinosaurs from L2 Cavelem that fling lemmings around with their tails, cannot be moved around. Thus, depending on how many degrees of freedom we add to these, these could either be valuable additions next to trampolines, despite the differences only being minor - like with the skills Floater/Glider and Stoner/Stacker. Or they could end up so similar to trampolines that they would be completely redundant. Personally, I tend to think the latter is more likely.
Possible tilesets: L2 Sports

An argument against both trampolines and springs / catapults can be made if there's a general intention to create some type of overarching object that just grants any type of skill to a lemming passing through it. Still, I think such an object would be more of an abstract "skill donator" or so, rather than something more "realistic", like a trampolin or spring.

Rope slides. Can basically be summarised as a release-rate sensitive bridge across a gap of arbitrary length. This would probably work best by having a "rope object" of which several could be placed next to each other, like updrafts, rather than having a single object for the entire slide for which you can then define the length by entering a number, like for water areas. Then again, if we wanted to keep the release-rate sensitivity, this would probably only work with a single object of arbitrary length, indeed - then, this object could check whether it's currently being used like a lemming or not, like a teleporter. The question here would be: What happens if a level designer puts several rope slides in the exact same position? Then it doesn't become apparent to the player that several lemmings can use this slide in parallel.
Alternatively, these could act as pre-defined spots in the level where lemmings start to shimmy by themselves, much like a trampolin would turn any lemming falling onto it into a Jumper without prior skill assignment. In that case, the argument that can be made against trampolines and springs / catapults by employing a general "skill-donating object" could also be made against the rope slide, if it were just an object that "gives the Shimmier skill to any lemming walking into it".
So, overall, I tend to be on the "no"-side here, but I can still imagine this as potentially really cool - if people find enough dedicated uses for it.
Possible tilesets: All.

Slippery blocks / Ice. In Lemmings 2: The Tribes, lemmings needed to be Skaters to even move across this type of terrain; in L3D, in contrast, every lemming stepping onto ice will start sliding by himself. They can't be assigned any skills aside from lethal ones while sliding on ice --> In L3D, this means only Bombers; in NeoLemmix, it would include Stoners, as well. This might become important as one of the few methods to actually turn lemmings around while on ice. I think Cloners should work here, too, though.
Basically, ice restricts the types of skills that can be assigned to regular Walkers in the same way as water restricts it for Swimmers.
Optionally, it could also slightly increase their speed of movement, but this isn't a "must"; it would also suffice to simply have the lemmings perform a "balancing" motion to identify them as moving on ice. They should be able to go up and down regular slopes, like in L3D. Six-pixel ascensions, in contrast, seem counterintuitive to me here.
And then, there's the question on whether lemmings should jump, as they do in L3D, when they reach the end of an ice area that coincides with the edge of a terrain piece, i.e. a gap with a vertical drop. If so, I'd also restrict this to just a regular Jumper motion, like with trampolines, rather than making it dependent on the distance the lemming has covered on ice to pick up "momentum" or so.
Possible tilesets: ohno Snow / Christmas, L2 Polar, Raymanni Snow


So yeah, trampolines and ice / slippery terrain would be worth considering, in my view - not only as inspirations from L3D, but they would also bring more select elements from the Lemmings 2: The Tribes tilesets over to NeoLemmix, without adding such obnoxious stuff as the chain or the fan.

[namida]

Teleporters. Work in NeoLemmix exactly like in Lemmings 3D (=release-rate sensitive, with animation).
Tilesets: L2 Space, orig Marble, ohno Brick, namida Circuit, plom Psychedelic Mod, and many others!

There is a major difference between L3D teleporters and NL teleporters - NL teleporters consist of a sender and a receiver. L3D teleporters are bidirectional. In this sense, NL teleporters are closer in function (but not in visuals) to L3D's rope slides or springs, than L3D's teleporters.

NL had teleporters that function like L3D's ones in the past. The only styles / levels that ever used these were ones directly converted from Cheapo, and even there, usage of them was extremely rare compared to "regular" teleporters; so don't expect a comeback.

Trampolines. This is the biggest thing in my book: Trampolines have been a regular part of Lemmings evers since Lemmings 2: The Tribes. Especially with the re-introduction of anti-splat pads, I think these would be a worthwhile inclusion: Like splat- and anti-splat pads, they should only affect Fallers, not regular Walkers, and they've never been release-rate sensitive in any Lemmings game. In Lemmings 3D, fall height affects the width of the ensuing jump; for simplification, I'd suggest to ignore this and simply define trampolines as "if a lemming moves into this area AND that lemming is a faller, that lemming performs the same motion as the regular Jumper skill". Meaning: No tumbler physics or similar required!
If these objects would be grouped together with splat- and anti-splat pads, they should only work if the lemming hits terrain inside their trigger area. But this is up for debate. Like anti-splat pads, trampolines would always prevent lemmings from splatting, no matter the fall height - but the resulting jump might catapult the lemming into a different type of danger zone, where the anti-splat pad wouldn't do the same (for example, over a Blocker / Stacker / Stoner holding the others back, into a gap / trap / fire area, etc.).
Possible tilesets: L2 Circus, L2 Cavelem, Raymanni Circus

If I remember correctly, Lix chose to cull these, or at least gave strong consideration to it. While not definitive (NL has kept / implemented things that Lix has chosen not to before), this is a strong strike against it.

Springs / Catapults. These would be very similar to trampolines, but release-rate sensitive, and they would affect regular lemmings walking onto them the same way as lemmings falling onto them from the top, like traps. In L3D, they're actually more similar to teleporters, not only due to their release-rate sensitivity, but also due to them having a defined start- and ending point: In contrast to trampolines, lemmings using catapults in L3D always land at the exact same target spot.
Meanwhile, in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, some types of catapults increase the difference to trampolines by the player being able to move them around - as such, e.g. L2 Circus has both trampolines and the canon that can shoot lemmings over gaps and walls. Others, in contrast, like the dinosaurs from L2 Cavelem that fling lemmings around with their tails, cannot be moved around. Thus, depending on how many degrees of freedom we add to these, these could either be valuable additions next to trampolines, despite the differences only being minor - like with the skills Floater/Glider and Stoner/Stacker. Or they could end up so similar to trampolines that they would be completely redundant. Personally, I tend to think the latter is more likely.
Possible tilesets: L2 Sports

As above, these are better compared to teleporters than to trampolines. Though there is one significant difference - in L3D, if a lemming is travelling on a spring and collides with solid terrain in midair, the lemming is instantly killed. In the official game, there's exactly one level that uses such a setup; and while what I believe to be the intended solution does indeed involve removing the terrain to make this spring safe, the level in question is one of the most backroute-plagued official levels ever and so it's very possible that many people aren't aware of this.

However, I don't know that that one detail is enough to make it worthwhile in NL.

Rope slides. Can basically be summarised as a release-rate sensitive bridge across a gap of arbitrary length. This would probably work best by having a "rope object" of which several could be placed next to each other, like updrafts, rather than having a single object for the entire slide for which you can then define the length by entering a number, like for water areas. Then again, if we wanted to keep the release-rate sensitivity, this would probably only work with a single object of arbitrary length, indeed - then, this object could check whether it's currently being used like a lemming or not, like a teleporter. The question here would be: What happens if a level designer puts several rope slides in the exact same position? Then it doesn't become apparent to the player that several lemmings can use this slide in parallel.
Alternatively, these could act as pre-defined spots in the level where lemmings start to shimmy by themselves, much like a trampolin would turn any lemming falling onto it into a Jumper without prior skill assignment. In that case, the argument that can be made against trampolines and springs / catapults by employing a general "skill-donating object" could also be made against the rope slide, if it were just an object that "gives the Shimmier skill to any lemming walking into it".
So, overall, I tend to be on the "no"-side here, but I can still imagine this as potentially really cool - if people find enough dedicated uses for it.
Possible tilesets: All.

Rope slides, compared to NL teleporters, differ only in their visuals (unlike springs, which at least have that one difference). There's no reason to add them.

EDIT: Actually, I can think of a subtle difference here - rope slides can only be triggered in a specific direction; a lemming walking a different direction would ignore it. (If you were to create a rope slide at a 45 degree angle, which yes, is technically possible in L3D although graphics might be a bit tricky especially without using custom ones; then it would be useable in two of four directions.) Converted to 2D, this would mean a rope slide is essentially a teleporter that requires the lemming to be walking a specific direction - this isn't too hard to achieve with hazards or terrain anyway.

The solution to (in general) the "overlay multiple objects in a way that it isn't obvious there's multiple", is "don't create levels that are visually misleading". Nothing new about that concept.

Slippery blocks / Ice. In Lemmings 2: The Tribes, lemmings needed to be Skaters to even move across this type of terrain; in L3D, in contrast, every lemming stepping onto ice will start sliding by himself. They can't be assigned any skills aside from lethal ones while sliding on ice --> In L3D, this means only Bombers; in NeoLemmix, it would include Stoners, as well. This might become important as one of the few methods to actually turn lemmings around while on ice. I think Cloners should work here, too, though.
Basically, ice restricts the types of skills that can be assigned to regular Walkers in the same way as water restricts it for Swimmers.
Optionally, it could also slightly increase their speed of movement, but this isn't a "must"; it would also suffice to simply have the lemmings perform a "balancing" motion to identify them as moving on ice. They should be able to go up and down regular slopes, like in L3D. Six-pixel ascensions, in contrast, seem counterintuitive to me here.
And then, there's the question on whether lemmings should jump, as they do in L3D, when they reach the end of an ice area that coincides with the edge of a terrain piece, i.e. a gap with a vertical drop. If so, I'd also restrict this to just a regular Jumper motion, like with trampolines, rather than making it dependent on the distance the lemming has covered on ice to pick up "momentum" or so.
Possible tilesets: ohno Snow / Christmas, L2 Polar, Raymanni Snow

This is probably the most likely one to be considered, although I still don't know that it's that likely. I didn't find it particularly useful when making my L3D pack - only two levels in my pack contain it, and one of them is more an "unusual concept, fun level" than a true puzzle, with the ice being there for thematic purposes more than anything else. "Winter Dynasty" is thus the only true ice puzzle in my pack, though to be fair, it is IMO a very good (and very hard) level.

Lemmings do not jump when reaching the end of ice in L3D. They slide off it with a little bit more forwards momentum than usual, but this quickly dies and they only end up about half a block further forward than they usually would had they walked instead of slid off.

Fun 12 and Mayhem 4, you say? Let's see what L3DEdit has to say about those, see attachments.



Overall, I don't really think anything from L3D is that likely to end up in NL, apart from those things that are already in NL. Slippery terrain is the only one that might, but even that, I'd need some convincing that it has good puzzle potential.

[ccexplore]

Trampolines. This is the biggest thing in my book: Trampolines have been a regular part of Lemmings evers since Lemmings 2: The Tribes.

Really?!?!?  I don't recall any appearance of it in Lemmings 3 (ie. Chronicles/All New World of Lemmings; not 3D) nor Lemmings Revolution, please correct me with specific levels if I misremembered.  Otherwise I wouldn't exactly call it "regular".

and they've never been release-rate sensitive in any Lemmings game.

Are you sure about this?  I could swear in Lemmings 2, two lemmings close enough in position to each other will result in one being bounced off by the trampoline but not the other, which will instead fall through it.  Levels with lots of trampolines like Highland 3 can easily turn into a bit of a mess once you get a clump of lemmings and end up with some getting past a trampoline while the others falling through.

Lemmings 3D may be different in this regard.  At any rate, release-rate-sensitive trampolines is terrible IMO, so even if we were to ever consider this for NeoLemmix I'd only want the non-sensitive kind.

More generally, trampoline may be a fun gimmick, but I think a lot of players will be a little annoyed at the trickiness of predicting where the lemming would end up after bouncing off.  I don't think I'm a fan until I see a level idea where it's not just a "wee! look at where the lemming go!" gimmick.

Springs / Catapults.[/b] <snip>

I can't say I can think of a single level in Lemmings 2 where these aren't just gimmicks.  It's pretty obvious where you want the lemmings to go and it's not even all that hard to find the right spot to move the object (when they are movable) so that it flings the lemmings to where you want.  And because they are release-rate sensitive, they tend to take forever getting every last lemming across to the desired destination.

I feel like this is a hard pass for me based on my experience with them in Lemmings 2.  I'd need to see a much better level to be convinced of their value.

Slippery blocks / Ice. In Lemmings 2: The Tribes, lemmings needed to be Skaters to even move across this type of terrain;

That certainly was the theory, but it turns at least in DOS Lemmings 2 (and possibly in a few other ports), there is actually a bug so that each time a lemming slip back and forth on the ice, it actually still ends up advancing slightly forward in their original facing direction, so if you wait long enough the lemming will actually slowly over time drift off onto the other side and therefore eventually make it across the ice without skating.

It is also pretty gimmicky in Lemmings 2 and basically just an excuse to make you use the skater skill (ignoring above bug).  That said, at least the movement is much more humanly predictable compared to trampolines and catapaults, especially if you simply make it so that they simply slide forward and temporarily lose the ability to do regular skills.  So while I feel their utility still seems a bit limited, at least I feel more open to their possible inclusion in NeoLemmix.

[Strato Incendus]

First of all, thanks for the clarifications, namida!

Really?!?!?  I don't recall any appearance of it in Lemmings 3 (ie. Chronicles/All New World of Lemmings; not 3D) nor Lemmings Revolution, please correct me with specific levels if I misremembered.  Otherwise I wouldn't exactly call it "regular".

I remembered them as part of Lemmings Paintball, but I might be mistaken, haven't played that for ages. (Btw, L3D edit from above does indeed look a bit like Lemmings Paintball to me! )

I was indeed mainly referring to Lemmings 2: The Tribes, Lemmings 3D, and then the adaptation of trampolines into Lix. In that sense, I used "regular" with the meaning of "on-again, of-again".

Are you sure about this?  I could swear in Lemmings 2, two lemmings close enough in position to each other will result in one being bounced off by the trampoline but not the other, which will instead fall through it.  Levels with lots of trampolines like Highland 3 can easily turn into a bit of a mess once you get a clump of lemmings and end up with some getting past a trampoline while the others falling through.

Lemmings 3D may be different in this regard.  At any rate, release-rate-sensitive trampolines is terrible IMO, so even if we were to ever consider this for NeoLemmix I'd only want the non-sensitive kind.

Well, since you can't fiddle with the release rate in Lemmings 2, I never actually tried out, but I don't remember any situation where I had this problem. Anyways, I think the point here is that both of us agree that, if we include trampolines at all, we'd want them to work like they definitely do in Lemmings 3D: non-release-rate sensitive.

The thing is that, on top of that, I also suggest further simplifying trampoline behaviour by making the previous fall height irrelevant.

In Lemmings 3D, there are levels specifically about finding the right altitude from which a lemming must drop onto a trampoline to make it across a gap ("Take a Dive", "Bounce Bounce" etc.). This results in trial-and-error level solving, i.e. execution difficulty.

In contrast, if you know that any lemming falling onto a trampoline will simply become a Jumper at that exact spot, you can factor that in much more easily. Once the Jumper gets introduced, people will probably quickly develop the ability to judge whether a gap or altitude is jumpable or not, just like we've all learned to judge the width of Builder staircases.

I don't know how this worked in Lix before trampolines were culled. But if fall-height dependence for the width of the ensuing jump was the reason, maybe we can simply avoid the thing that made them annoying in Lix?

Also, Lix has tumbler physics, to my understanding (Knockback Bomber, Baseball Bat etc.). NeoLemmix won't have them, so maybe that would make trampolines less complicated as well?

[ccexplore]

Hmm, so basically a jumper that is infinite use but confined to the one location, and can also make falls safe.

Still feels a little limited to me (eg. wouldn't a release-rate-insensitive teleport provide similar effects, but also actually let the level designer pick any location for the destination?), but I guess with that kind of simplified behavior, if one were to implement the jumper it wouldn't take much more to implement trampolines as well.

[Strato Incendus]

wouldn't a release-rate-insensitive teleport provide similar effects, but also actually let the level designer pick any location for the destination?

Definitely not! Lemmings falling into teleporters remember their fall height. Even if they drop straight into a teleporter without hitting terrain first, if that drop is more than 64 pixels, they will splat instantly as soon as they reach the receiver (EDIT: in case the receiver is placed on terrain; otherwise, they'll splat at the next occasion when they hit terrain).

Case and point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFTKhHwAH8&list=PLbyk0AE1WQV0aITefPK5p6wC9-sIozw0n&index=7

(Relevant section starts at 6:32)

[ccexplore]

Ok, so maybe with an anti-splat pad added near the receiver then?  Does lemming still splat instantly at the moment they appear at the receiver, if the receiver isn't placed at ground level?  I'd think it only splats because of the actual collision with the ground at the receiver.

[namida]

Ok, so maybe with an anti-splat pad added near the receiver then?  Does lemming still splat instantly at the moment they appear at the receiver, if the receiver isn't placed at ground level?  I'd think it only splats because of the actual collision with the ground at the receiver.

Not actually tested, but based on the mechanics of all involved objects, I expect the result would be that the lemming would not splat at a midair receiver, nor would they splat if the receiver's trigger point overlaps with an antisplat pad or updraft's trigger area.

[Strato Incendus]

Does lemming still splat instantly at the moment they appear at the receiver, if the receiver isn't placed at ground level?

No, it does not - this can also be seen in the video above: My level "The long way down" consists of several mid-air receivers leading back into further mid-air teleporters. The lemmings only splat once they actually hit ground. nin10doadict tries to ahead and plant a Stoner right at the receiver, which still results in the next lemming coming through the receiver splatting.

This suggests the total fall height simply adds up.

I admit this wasn't phrased clearly in my preceding post, so I've added that hint, thanks for asking!

[namida]

This suggests the total fall height simply adds up.

Yep, this is what I would expect. The teleporter / receiver doesn't change anything about the lemming except for his position.

[Strato Incendus]

Bump - now that the Jumper is in its test phase, can we consider trampolines, as they've been outlined in this thread? Meaning:

- non-release-rate sensitive: every lemming falling onto the trampoline will be affected, no matter how close to each other they are
- fall height doesn't matter: lemmings falling onto a trampoline always perform the standard Jumper animation

My main justification for why we would need trampolines in NeoLemmix is that I've found out Jumpers often need to be provided in huge quantities (20+). Lemmings 2: The Tribes reflects that, as well.

Having to assign multiples of the same skill again and again has been regarded as quite tedious and inconvenient by many in the community. For example, if a level requires a lot of Floaters or Climbers, it's considered best practice to have the lemmings come out of the hatch with those skills pre-assigned to them, whenever possible, at least.

Non-permanent skills obviously can't come out of hatches, but it is possible to not only have pre-placed Blockers (which are technically a non-permanent skill), but also Shimmiers (the newest skill in a stable release so far). Pre-placed Jumpers don't seem reasonable (and even if they existed, they would be very limited in their application).

But having specific spots in the level where every lemming in the crowd can turn into a Jumper - without having to assign a separate Jumper to each individual lemming from said crowd - can indeed be very time- and effort-saving, even if the trampoline by itself doesn't do anything "new" (like increasing the width dependent on fall height).

[namida]

My main justification for why we would need trampolines in NeoLemmix is that I've found out Jumpers often need to be provided in huge quantities (20+). Lemmings 2: The Tribes reflects that, as well.

Before we consider this, do you have an example that needs 20+ lemmings to become jumpers, and couldn't just eg. build across the gap instead, or not have the gap in the first place, or use a teleporter, or reduce the lemming count (or perhaps, save requirement) so the quantity of jumpers needed isn't huge, etc?

[Strato Incendus]

Any case where Jumpers need to be used on every or a large share of lemmings from the crowd, e.g. to contain them in a place where they have to jump to first.

One example would be the L2 Outdoor level "Natural selection": Here you have to assign a bunch of Shimmiers, Floaters, and also Jumpers (over 20 each) to get the lemmings to various places where they can be held back.

My own level "A hard day's knight" (from Lemmings Hall of Fame) is also similar; here, the crowd needs to shimmy / glide / jump while a Digger is removing the ground under their feet (see attachment).



This particular level couldn't be solved with a trampoline, because the starting altitude constantly changes, due to the Digger. I've only uploaded it to illustrate the logic: The entire crowd has to jump first before they reach a safe spot where they can be contained (the rectangular pit in the wood block in the middle).

Assigning all these Jumpers individually can be quite obnoxious. On "A hard day's knight", there's no other way; on L2's "Natural selection", it would be easy to just place a trampoline next to the gap that the entire crowd has to get across.

Building in either case is not possible, because the lemmings are walking back-to-back and there's no way to hold them back while the bridge is being built (even if the level provided you with Builders in the first place).

Also, Builders are one of the most powerful skills in the game, as I'm sure we all agree. It isn't always feasible to give the player Builders to solve one specific problem, because that opens the doors to abusing that Builder for a bunch of other, unforeseen stuff.

Finally, the bridge Builders leave behind is permanent; the beauty about the Jumper is precisely that it's a one-time-use skill, and the path it allows a lemming to take can't simply be "recycled" for other lemmings, or when that same lemming who jumped earlier reaches this same position again.

Of course, a trampoline would provide a reusable jump, but only in the one specific spot where it's placed. A Builder that you give to the player instead can be (ab-)used anywhere else in the level, and for completely different purposes than intended: gaining height, bridging a gap, breaking a fall via a splatform, turning a lemming around, creating a ceiling for a Shimmier, crossing a trap etc.

[Dullstar]

One example would be the L2 Outdoor level "Natural selection": Here you have to assign a bunch of Shimmiers, Floaters, and also Jumpers (over 20 each) to get the lemmings to various places where they can be held back.

I'm not commenting on the custom level you've provided at this time (well, except for the fact that, by your own admission, the trampoline won't fix it), but I think L2 levels aren't the best examples here, due to L2's system of starting with 60 lemmings per tribe and carrying over whatever you save to the next level. If Natural Selection were to be remade in NeoLemmix (at least as closely as NeoLemmix will allow, anyway), it would probably be prudent to reduce the number of lemmings - the level's puzzle would still probably work just as well if it had 15 lemmings and only 5 of each movement skill instead of 20, and then you wouldn't have to assign so many skills - thus, the excessive number of jumpers could easily be fixed by reducing the number of lemmings. Furthermore, because of the level involving making three groups of lemmings by assigning different skills initially, the trampoline wouldn't actually work to fix it.

I'm not against the trampoline, but I think some better sample usage cases are needed, specifically, as namida outlines, examples where existing mechanics won't work (or would be too cumbersome) instead. I find myself asking why, if you want every lemming to cross a gap using a jumper in a fixed location and it's obvious that's what needs to be done (as the trampoline would imply), why not just close the gap and use a wall or one-way field or something like that instead if you need to make sure it can only be crossed one way?

[Strato Incendus]

The "must-be-60-lemmings, save everyone" limitation is a fair point! I didn't think of this because, since the above level is taken from a pack that's supposed to emulate Lemmings 2 in NeoLemmix, I also have 60 lemmings on each of the levels as a given (though you don't always have to save everyone, or just lose 1 or 2; sometimes you're allowed to use way more).

So let's think of other cases:

1) Both L2 and L3D levels have a habit of "chaining" several trampolines to each other, i.e. you bounce off one and land on the next one. Similarly to the slippery-block discussion in the neighbour thread,  you obviously can't assign non-lethal / non-Cloner skills to lemmings while jumping. If they were to get across those same gaps via several connected (Builder) staircases, i.e. as Walkers, you could assign any skill to them at any time. It's a similar logic as chaining several teleporters to each other, with the difference that teleporters (both in L2 and L3D) are release-rate sensitive, whereas L3D trampolines are not.

Basically, the trampoline is for every case where you want to get anything from one to all the lemmings across a gap, or up a certain altitude, without allowing them to assign skills along the way.

2) If you chain several trampolines to get a lemming up a splat-height altitude, there is no safe way down again: A faller will either land on top of the trampoline and be catapulted back up, or he will fall down in between the trampolines and splat. If you cover that same drop with a Builder, now you always have a splatform for anyone who falls back down.


3) L3D doesn't have Shimmiers, and I don't remember any cases from L2 where you have to transition from a trampoline into a Shimmier. But in NeoLemmix, this would totally be possible!

This would allow to set up "access ways" for Shimmiers that don't just always involve the standard Climber-Shimmier transition, without having to provide the player with a bunch of Jumpers. Why is this latter point important?

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4) Jumpers are almost as powerful as Walkers, in that they can cancel any skill at any given time, except for Blockers. Meaning, if you want to enforce every lemming jumping across a gap, or even just a few lemmings, you have to provide a moderate to excessive number of Jumpers. In my previous post, I've already talked about how excess Builders can be abused; but of course, the same holds true for Jumpers, as well.

If the one-way field is the object surrogate for the Walker, then the trampoline is the object surrogate for the Jumper. Both skills are powerful enough to warrant an object that limits their power to specific locations in the level, I think.