Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version] [Difficulty: Medium]

Started by Strato Incendus, October 18, 2019, 11:07:16 PM

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Strato Incendus

QuoteOnce that is done and Icho posts replays for the Groupie rank, and I turn everything green, then I can officially say I have this pack as another completed pack with replays.

Well, what does that really say if you "solved" the pack just using someone else's replays? ;)

Also, being the savvy player that he is, I'm pretty sure IchoTolot is going to find many further backroutes. Especially since he's the first player to actually make it to the final ranks, it seems. These backroutes I will have to fix afterwards, and then a good chunk of your "replay collection" won't work anymore.

So even if you just like to collect replays and compare and contrast solutions, this endeavour is going to turn pointless pretty quickly, at least at this stage.

I may upload my official solutions at some point (e.g. after IchoTolot has finished everything and thus every level has been subjected to backroute scrutiny by an expert player at least once, with me fixing all backroutes found that way). Then every level should be in a reasonably backroute-proof state. Sometimes these backroute fixes indeed require slight (e.g. timing) adaptations to the replays of the intended solution.

If I do upload my intended replays, I will do so separately for Old-Formats and New-Formats, because the radiation and slowfreeze levels obviously have completely different solutions between the two versions.

Or, if I feel like it and have a lot of time, I might do a creator's commentary series on YouTube, if anyone is interested? ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

IchoTolot

QuoteAre you referring to a different level, maybe?

Yes, sorry, it was the other Sports level (Encore 35) with the invisible egyptian smasher trap in it.


Regarding the whole replay system you are using:

The fact that you are having these troubles now proves that your current system is extremely flawed and is in desperate need of fixing.

I would drop everything right now and make fixing the replay structure the number 1 priority! The most important thing: Seperate old and new format replays completely so that a mass replay check can indeed be run! - Saw you indeed did that.

QuoteInstead of manually identifying and copying all the 320 Old-Formats replay files to the New-Formats replay folder, I went the faster opposite route and copied the few replay files which are dedicated New-Formats replay files to the Old-Formats folder. Now I could run a second mass replay check over the entire Auto folder once again, so there should be at least one solving replay for every New-Formats level in that folder. This will take a while, though, because there are obviously still a bunch of replays from other packs in that folder.

Yes do it, it should still be quick. It's a very essential feature and assuring solvability of the pack to new players needs to be fast and trivial.

I still would go even further and invest the time to seperate the replays to each pack in different folders. Just trust me that the time spend on this well invested. A good structure when organizing files is essential.

IchoTolot

Up to Groupie 15. In 16 I am standing before a wall with no destruction skills and no pick ups...... :devil:  I don't know if a gimmick was intended here or you just missed to give the player some skills.....

Attached the replays so far.


Strato Incendus

...and here's the fix for the Groupie rank (upload in the starting post)!

The initial mass replay check listed three levels as failing in which the Glider-Faller physics change didn't actually render the level impossible - it just altered the timing of my skill assignments in those particular replay files. Those were the levels

"That's a hard level that is" (Groupie 02)
"You know you make me wanna shout" (Groupie 13)
"I see fire" (Groupie 34)

Thus, nothing has changed about these level files; I only needed to correct the timing of the skill assignment in my replays. If anyone has solved these levels in the meantime using the current NeoLemmix version, those replays should still work.

The only levels that needed fixing were "Read my lips" (Groupie 10) and "All for love" (Groupie 16).

Groupie 10 needed one particular platform to be placed two pixels lower so that a Glider dropping from the ceiling could still land on it.

Groupie 16 had a completely unrelated issue: It is a level featuring an infinite number of Fencers.
In Old Formats, the number I set the skill count to for this purpose was 200.
In New Formats, the Fencer skill somehow was missing from the panel entirely.
As far as I recall, this was not the case during my initial conversion to New Formats, because I checked every single level again back then.
When I re-entered the number 200 in the New Formats editor, it was automatically set to 100. Apparently this is now the number instructing NeoLemmix to just set the skill count to infinite.

Maybe this change was implemented somewhere in the meantime, between two New-Formats versions? ???



QuoteUp to Groupie 15. In 16 I am standing before a wall with no destruction skills and no pick ups...... :devil:  I don't know if a gimmick was intended here or you just missed to give the player some skills.....

As you can see, I had already discovered this myself in the meantime. :P I warned you yesterday evening that Groupie hadn't been checked yet, but it is now.
If you insisted on continuing to play in the few hours between yesterday evening and right now... :evil: But of course, I appreciate your persistence! :thumbsup:



I've attached the results of the latest mass replay check. I figure the PASSED section will be most informative to you, because some levels have an earlier (=Old-Formats) version of a replay listed under FAILED, but then another replay in the folder that solves it, and therefore the level will also appear under PASSED.

The levels are sorted alphabetically, but each line starts with the rank and level numbers, which are consequently all over the place. If you're looking for a particular level, just look for its name in the alphabetical list in the PASSED section and ignore the rank and level number before the name.

I guess in order for the mass replay file to show the levels in chronological order, when working with named level files as created by the editor (instead of numerical level files as created by the player), each of those level files would have to start with a rank number, then followed by a level number (01_01, 01_02, and so on). So the issue of alphabetical vs. rank and level number will always be present when using replay files created in the editor.

It seems this tool is overall more useful for checking whether your replays for somebody else's pack still work (because those are usually created while playing, i.e. in the player and therefore sorted by number instead of by level name), and less optimal for checking one's own pack. Of course, there will always be more packs by others a given person is playing than the number of packs that person created themselves, so it's still obviously a very useful tool most of the time.

QuoteYes, sorry, it was the other Sports level (Encore 35) with the invisible egyptian smasher trap in it.

Ah yeah, that is an old Paralems level. The reason I didn't change this in LWT is again an aesthetic one (kind of like with "Octopus's garden" and "Thunderstruck"), because I wanted the smashers to line up with the walls, i.e. look like they're coming out of the walls, rather than half out of thin air. Yes, this buries the trigger in the ground, but it wouldn't be much more visible otherwise either, given that both the trigger and the terrain are green, and the trigger is just 1 pixel high.

You kind of have to cover that pit anyway, because the lemmings can't get out otherwise. Maybe depending on how you assign the Miner, you could make it work.

I might change this in the future, I'll have to make up my mind about it. Either way, it shouldn't make or break solutions, because the height of the trigger area isn't relevant to the solution. It's a pure visuals-vs-game-fairness thing.

QuoteYes do it, it should still be quick. It's a very essential feature and assuring solvability of the pack to new players needs to be fast and trivial.

It actually is fast in general; the reason it takes longer is because the mass replay check always stops at the Groupie level "Hiroshima", giving me the message of falling back to default sprites. So I need to be present at the screen to click that message away.

I assume this is because GigaLem's Millas sprites don't contain a Jumper sprite yet? "Hiroshima" is one of the GigaLem-Groupie levels, so they kind of have to feature those sprites. There is no Jumper on the level (not in the entire pack, even), but of course, if you're using NeoLemmix 12.9, the engine will require every sprite set to have a Jumper sprite as much as any other sprite.

QuoteI would drop everything right now and make fixing the replay structure the number 1 priority! The most important thing: Seperate old and new format replays completely so that a mass replay check can indeed be run! - Saw you indeed did that.

In fact, the opposite was the solution - throw both Old- and New-Formats replays into one folder so that the mass replay check always finds at least one working solution! :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

IchoTolot

And that makes the pack completed. All replays attached. 8-)

QuoteMaybe this change was implemented somewhere in the meantime, between two New-Formats versions?

All skill counts can only go up to 99, this was patch quite a while ago.

QuoteI assume this is because GigaLem's Millas sprites don't contain a Jumper sprite yet?

Giga's Millas are already updated. In the most recent version they do have that jumper sprite and I myself have no disruptions in my replay check.

Quote
It seems this tool is overall more useful for checking whether your replays for somebody else's pack still work

It's VERY effective in checking your own packs. I myself save replays for my own levels with the level name as the file name just like you do and I see immediately when something goes from PASSED to FAILED/UNDERTERMINED.

It's also very fast and I can proof solvability to all my packs in a matter of minutes.

Quote
In fact, the opposite was the solution - throw both Old- and New-Formats replays into one folder so that the mass replay check always finds at least one working solution!

This just shows that your replay folder needs an exorcist. :8():

All new format replays (one for each level) in one folder. The old format replay collection in another one. That for each and every pack.

Strato Incendus

First things first: Congratulations on and a big round of applause for being the first to beat the entire (New-Formats Version of) the pack, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I had already fixed the backroutes you found (where possible) up to the end of the Rockstar rank (but I haven't uploaded an update yet). For now I've taken a look at your replays for the Legend rank. As I've expected, with higher level complexity, larger skill sets, and thus more degrees of freedom, the number of backroutes went up significantly - at least for you being the first one to even attempt these levels.

Funnily enough, the levels I expected you the most to backroute were the ones you actually didn't backroute. ;)

I'm writing down my feedback to the single Legend levels in the spoiler tag - not just for you, but also for me to remember what I need to fix. 8-) Right now, it's still fresh in my memory, but I'm sure this will take a while to implement.

IchoTolot Legend rank

01: Bolemian Rhapsody: This was more or less fine, just a slightly more skill-efficient use than intended. I may have to make those one-way arrows at one place go down all the way to the bottom or place some steel there. You went under one of the one-way blocks by bashing through the archways.

02: Purple Rain: Classical case of the intended solution being so complex that it provides way too many Builders and Platformers - enough for you to just build over everything. I'm not sure how to fix this yet.

03: We can be heroes: You saved one Platformer, but that skill is optional anyway. This should also be fine.

04: Take me home, country roads: Well, I'm glad this one apparently gave you a slightly tougher nut to crack, given that you came to me first, attributing your troubles with solving this one to the Glider-Faller physics change. ;) Of course, I assume even my obscure way of phrasing how this was not actually down to said physics change was probably already enough to make someone as experienced as you immediately think of the correct solution: That the Glider has to be stoned while still floating in the air. If you allow him to land, he will do the oh-no animation, which will take too long, since you need to prevent any lemming from slipping past.

05: Hallelujah: Slightly more skill efficient than the intended one, but close enough to still be acceptable.

06: Lems in the sky with diamonds: The hidden lightning trap in the thunder cloud is a flavour thing, just like on "Thunderstruck", we've already discussed that. The solution itself was slightly more efficient than the intended one, but still fine.

07: Lemmingrad: You've got the main trick right on this one, and I'm hesitant about fixing the part where you used the shortcut - because the intended solution is very pixel-precise. Some thoughtfully-placed one-way arrows should be enough to enforce this... I'm just not sure I can do it with a clear conscience. But I probably should, given that this is the last main rank... and you still had a couple skills left over. :evil: This same issue came up again on Legend 37.

08: Master of puppets: A very nice alternative solution! :thumbsup: That's the way I like it!

09: Eye of the tiger:
Ah yeah, those god-damn horizontal one-way arrows that don't stop Diggers. So I guess additional steel is in order.

10: Wind of change: Again, the intended solution requires quite a few Platformers... which you could simply use to build over the long updraft instead of actually using it (and then platforming on the way back). Another one I'll have to wrap my head around for quite a while to see how I can fix this.

11: Living on a prayer: Mmh, it's pretty hard to make these thin tailor-made-for-blockers stripes of wood backroute-proof... They're too small to layer steel on top of them. Maybe I'll have to abuse upward arrows as steel again.

12: We will rock you: Perfectly acceptable alternative solution! I've found that severely limiting the number of destructive skills is often a good way to prevent any serious backroutes, because long shortcuts through large sections of terrain are simply not possible. You also got the main trick here, which was making the Basher go through without causing the crowd relying on those same constructive skills to splat. So it's not even as "alternative" a solution as some of the others. ;) Just not exactly the intended one.

13: Nothing else matters: This started out as something looking like a really cool alternative solution, but then shaped up to something way too easy. Not sure how to fix it yet...

14: Can't get no satisfaction:
Completely different than intended, but you still had to find creative ways of stalling the crowd, and you only spared 1 skill. This is fine by me.

15: Waterloo: By itself, the solution to this level isn't very complicated. Just deal with the opposing army (=zombies) somehow. To someone who played Paralems, having this level this high in the pack may look outright stupid. But given that there aren't a lot of zombie levels in LWT, a player who doesn't have too much experience with them might still face somewhat of a challenge with this.

16: Bridge over troubled water: Nice alternative solution! Especially the Stacker-Digger-Stacker part at the top to prevent the Climbers from going into the water. That poor Blocker though, you just let him stand there in the rain, making him one of the two that can die... :D He was supposed to be freed by the last Climber going through him, who should have done so by digging.

17: Y. Lem C. A.: And another one where you went over the top. The C just needs some steel.

18: Comfortable numb: Very close to intended, this is fine.

19: Imagine: And here's one I expected you to backroute somehow, but you didn't. ;) This is pretty much the intended solution. Some things seemed a little different while just watching your replay (without directly comparing it to mine), but I can't quite put my finger on it.

20: Don't stop believin': A very clever alternative solution to another level I feared you would find a backroute to. :thumbsup:

21: Kashmir: Nailed it, exactly as intended! :thumbsup: I was quite relieved to see this! The main trick is quite complex, I wasn't sure whether the level would sufficiently enforce it.

22: Blowing in the wind: This was a very nice solution overall, but you probably noticed that the zombie Climbers were just killing themselves without requiring any effort on your part. Looks like, while I made sure that all the levels which required regular lemmings to bump the ceiling had solid terrain there, I forgot to do so for the few zombie levels. In this case, if the zombie Climbers don't go beyond the ceiling and die, they turn around, go over the smaller pillar, drop off the platform and start causing trouble for the crowd on the left, which you could just allow to drop into the pit with the exit. The zombie ceiling issue came up again on Legend 38.

23: Wish you were here: Close to intended, but it still seems a bit too easy. Let's see what I can do to make this slightly harder.

24: Let my Lems open the door: The first iteration of the level ("Clocks") you performed exactly as intended; this one, the rerun, was still close, but a little bit further off. I haven't quite decided yet whether this is a "problem" or not. ;)

25: I will survive: More skill efficient than the intended solution (you're supposed to get past the lightning trap by cloning the faller, instead of just building over it - I thought I had made sure you need the Builder elsewhere). I like the way you used the basher to free the crowd on the right, though. This may or may not require fixing.

26: Time to say goodbye: Here you used all the skills - the solution just seemed way more straightforward than the intended one. Which makes me think it may have been too easy for you to find out? ;) It's weird, on many of these levels you spared a couple of skills, but I don't consider them backroutes... here on the other hand, we might have one of the few cases of "backroute despite using every skill". I usually just regard all-skill-using solutions as alternative ones, but I'm not quite sure here.

27: Thunderstruck:
Now I see why you thought the teleporters were pointless. ;) They actually do play a slightly larger role in the intended solution. I'm not sure I can enforce that beyond what you did, though (the second half of the level was pretty much as intended). Also, yeah, we already talked about the lightning traps from the thunder clouds, see Legend 06.

28: Just a little bit: Similar issue to Y. Lem C. A., you could basically just go over the top, by repeatedly digging into the terrain and then building. So you basically did the same thing on every letter of the word "R.E.S.P.E.C.T.", which must have felt quite repetitive. ;) Digging into the terrain to get far enough below the ceiling and then building is part of the intended solution for some of the letters though - and one those where it shouldn't be done, I've placed steel right at the edge. I'll have to closely compare my intended to your solution to find out where exactly you went off the intended path.

29: Africa: Intended. I already had a feeling this one would be alright when it had just started. ;)

30: Knocking on Heaven's door: It's funny that Gliders can push buttons while floating through updrafts. I don't even remember, that might actually also happen in my solution. The rest seemed strangely easy, though, and I can't quite figure out why.

31: Ganglem style: You didn't collect one of the Stoner pickups, but then you used every skill you had available. This seems like a reasonably close alternative solution.

32: A whiter shade of pale: This was the level I feared the most you would backroute. But again, you didn't. ;) This is exactly the intended solution.
That said, I had tried for quite a while to make some fiddling with the Stacker work, so that you could bash straight from below instead of sending a Climber up first. Because I couldn't make the backroute work myself, I was reasonably confident that nobody else would either.

33: Houze of the Rising Sun: This is an open-ended level and thus pretty much one that can't be backrouted, just solved in various levels of skill efficiency.

34: Purple Haze:
Cheeky, you've found one small spot where you could place the Stoner in such a way that the Platformer would still reach the terrain on the left, but on the right side there would remain a gap to reach the exit. The intended solution requires the platform to seal everything off completely, so that you have to do some additional fiddling to make sure everyone drops down facing to the right. Let's see if I can re-adjust the terrain by a couple of pixels enough to break your solution, without simultaneously breaking mine... :evil:

35: Scarborough fair: This was an unexpected timing-based solution, but the way you temporarily isolated the crowd while making sure you had two worker lemmings was quite clever. Another one where I'm not sure if I want to break this solution or not.

36: The Phantom of the Opera: Yeah, this level never really turns out as challenging as I expected it to be. Using the Basher tunnel to turn one lemming around and make him platform was the main thing to do.

37: Breaking the law:
This was supposed to be the hardest level on the main ranks. Similarly to "Nothing else matters", you started out with a good alternative solution, but it ultimately became too easy. Similarly to "Lemmingrad", you got one main trick right but used shortcuts on the rest. And similarly to "We will rock you", I thought limiting the destructive skills so drastically would be enough to make this level backroute-proof. In case of "We will rock you", it was. But here, even though I was very close to allowing this as an alternative solution, some carefully placed steel will be required to break this one. You used the protruding part of that square block to dig to the exit. The thing is, that protruding piece is indeed needed, but in order to start building from there. And the way to the exit should be carved by a Miner. Thus, I must be careful with the steel placement, otherwise the Miner won't be able to go through either.
Maybe some one-way arrows at an earlier stage, where you used the Basher and the Fencer, will already suffice, though - because that should disable the rest of your solution by means of exclusion.

38: Thriller: See "Blowing in the wind", the zombie Climbers at the exit kill themselves without any effort on the player's part. I really just thought about regular lemmings needing the ceiling. Because the zombies at the exit thus didn't cause additional trouble for you, you could use your resources more liberally to just build over all the earlier zombie crowds.

39: I will always love lemmings:
Pretty much intended with some minor variations.

40: The time of my life: You joined the two crowds on the left right from the beginning, and you freed the middle crowd with a Miner where I think I used a Bomber. But apart from that, this was also pretty close to intended.

To be continued soon! ;)

QuoteAll skill counts can only go up to 99, this was patch quite a while ago.

Well, infinite skills are still possible. ;) It's just that you apparently have to type a 100 into the skill count specifically to make it work, rather than any number larger than 99.

QuoteGiga's Millas are already updated. In the most recent version they do have that jumper sprite and I myself have no disruptions in my replay check.

Thanks for the info, then it seems I just need to update my style files! ;)

QuoteAll new format replays (one for each level) in one folder. The old format replay collection in another one. That for each and every pack.

On the vast majority of the levels, the solution for Old and New Formats are the same. So I'd rather have one file for each solution instead of having duplicates leafing around that I could then accidentally modify independently of each other. ;)

When checking your own packs, do you make more use of the "PASSED" section, or of the "FAILED" section?

I assume the FAILED section is supposed to be very short, so that each entry there serves as an alarm signal. The thing is, though, that I deliberately also keep replays of backroutes, so whenever I change something about a level, I can run those again and make sure the backroutes are still disabled. Thus, those formerly solving replay files will always show up under failed, and in that case, this is a good thing, because they shouldn't be allowed to pass. ;)

Of course, with steel and one-way arrows, those usually remain in place, so they don't require constant rechecking when editing a level. In contrast though, any adjustments to the skill panel and, by extension, placement of pickup skills, can easily re-introduce backroutes again, if the player suddenly has a skill at their disposal again that they shouldn't have, and can then use it in a place where they shouldn't use it. 8-)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

IchoTolot

QuoteFirst things first: Congratulations on and a big round of applause for being the first to beat the entire (New-Formats Version of) the pack, IchoTolot!

Thanks! ;)

Quote
When checking your own packs, do you make more use of the "PASSED" section, or of the "FAILED" section?

FAILED and UNDETERMINED.

I've got only the replays of the pack I want to check in the selected folder, so if nothing is in FAILED or UNDETERMINED  and everything is in PASSED it's alright. This can be checked in a second if you've got the file.

Basically, if I see anything in FAILED or UNDETERMINED then I need to check what's wrong.

QuoteThe thing is, though, that I deliberately also keep replays of backroutes

Keep them in a seperate folder called "Lemmings World Tour Backroutes". In there they won't interfere anymore and if you want to do an additional check on them if they still fail you can do that as well.

kaywhyn

#82
A big congratulations from me as well for not only officially being the first person to finish the pack, but also for finishing the largest level pack there currently is! :thumbsup: That's quite an accomplishment. I'll get to LWT eventually. It's on my to-play list, but it's probably going to be a while before I do so, since there's still plenty of other level packs that I'm currently prioritizing. I have plans to do both the Old Formats and the New Formats versions. I should probably start with the Old Formats version first, considering that no one else has finished it, as well as getting used to the culled objects and other things exclusive to the v10 NL players. Not to mention there isn't as many packs in the Old Formats left for me to play. Come to think of it, unless I'm forgetting some of the packs, I think Strato's (Pit Lems, Paralems, and Old Formats LWT are the ones that come to mind) are the only ones left I need to play in Old Formats. We'll see.

edit: Forgot about Casualemmings, where I'm currently stuck on Super Mecha Gators with the uber crocodile traps. Now, you said that Perky 20 is indeed possible? Ninoaddict showed you a solvable replay of the level?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

ericderkovits

yes I got all of icho's replays now for LWT. But I had to redownload Stratos pack 2 days ago since he altered some levels because icho's replays were broken (ie Viva Colonia).
I did a Mass replay check on Icho's new Updated replays and now there all good.

So I updated my list of custom new format packs I have replays for.

Strato Incendus

QuoteI should probably start with the Old Formats version first, considering that no one else has finished it, as well as getting used to the culled objects and other things exclusive to the v10 NL players.

I'm very happy to hear that! :thumbsup:

QuoteCome to think of it, unless I'm forgetting some of the packs, I think Strato's (Pit Lems, Paralems, and Old Formats LWT are the ones that come to mind) are the only ones left I need to play in Old Formats. We'll see.

If those are all you have left to play in Old Formats, don't be hesitant to jump straight to LWT, as far as packs on that Old-Formats list are concerned. ;) Paralems was my very first pack and quality levels are few and far between. Pit Lems is mechanically fair and slightly more challenging, but it has no overarching theme, in contrast to LWT. Plus, I am still working on Pit Lems Remastered for New Formats anyway, which is going to be Pit Lems + the best levels of Paralems mashed into one slightly larger pack (150 levels).

Unless of course you want to give my radiation and slowfreeze levels from Pit Lems a try. Those won't make it to New Formats, obviously, and some of them I am quite proud of. :D In that case, I'd probably point you to Old-Formats Pit Lems first.

Quoteedit: Forgot about Casualemmings, where I'm currently stuck on Super Mecha Gators with the uber crocodile traps. Now, you said that Perky 20 is indeed possible? Ninoaddict showed you a solvable replay of the level?

Coincidentally, this is one of the few levels from Casualemmings that only exists in Old Formats. I've redesigned traps for New Formats in such a way thought that it should be possible now to convert the level to New Formats, and include it in the new version as well. I've already contacted nin10doadict about this, but haven't received a response so far. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

kaywhyn

Quote from: Strato Incendus on September 14, 2020, 12:10:54 PM
Coincidentally, this is one of the few levels from Casualemmings that only exists in Old Formats. I've redesigned traps for New Formats in such a way thought that it should be possible now to convert the level to New Formats, and include it in the new version as well. I've already contacted nin10doadict about this, but haven't received a response so far. :P

Yes, I remember you saying that you were willing to lend nin10doaddict a hand in converting the uber deadly crocodile traps. However, that's not my main concern. What I want to know is if he ever showed you an actual replay that solves Perky 20, as I'm still finding the level completely and downright impossible. The 3-in-1 crocodile trap triggers way too fast (well, the first two anyway, the zapper from the bubble tileset and the lizard tongue from the rock tileset). From what I remember, I think you said that he gave you hints on how to solve it. From what it seems, there appears to be no solving replay of the level around anywhere. So really, I'm just asking to confirm solvability of the level, as I think it's impossible due to how I haven't solved it yet. Of course, just because I can't solve it doesn't mean that it is impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Strato Incendus

QuoteSo really, I'm just asking to confirm solvability of the level, as I think it's impossible due to how I haven't solved it yet. Of course, just because I can't solve it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Yeah, I asked nin10doadict for a replay back then as well, because I was pretty ashamed of not being able to solve a level that was supposedly inspired by myself. :oops: I had a solving replay once, but when running it again now, it also failed.

However, I just figured out the solution again for myself. My new replay for "Super Mecha Death Gators" is attached. ;)

PS: Back to the pack of this topic. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

kaywhyn

Quote from: Strato Incendus on September 14, 2020, 03:28:27 PM
Yeah, I asked nin10doadict for a replay back then as well, because I was pretty ashamed of not being able to solve a level that was supposedly inspired by myself. :oops: I had a solving replay once, but when running it again now, it also failed.

However, I just figured out the solution again for myself. My new replay for "Super Mecha Death Gators" is attached. ;)

Ok, thanks. I'm still insisting on not peaking at your replay until I have solved it myself, though! I only watch replays after I have beaten the level first, as I prefer the satisfaction of figuring out the solution myself :P However, good to know that it is 100% possible and that I can stop going insane thinking it's not. I posted a while back in the Casualemmings level pack topic but didn't get any kind of response whether Perky 20 was possible.

Quote
PS: Back to the pack of this topic. :P

My bad. You're right, of course. Looking forward to giving LWT a playthrough whenever I get to it! ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Strato Incendus

The next update with the fixes to IchoTolot's backroutes from the Rockstar and Legend rank has been uploaded to the starting post! :D

No changes to Encore or Groupie yet.

Changelog

Fixed: (changes specific to New-Formats version are highlighted)

Rockstar 22 (Summer of '69): added steel
Rockstar 38 (Stonehenge): added downward arrows
Rockstar 39 (Holy Mountains): added one-way fields
Rockstar 40 (Dream on): added steel

Legend 01 (Bolemian Rhapsody): added steel
Legend 07 (Lemmingrad): added downward arrows
Legend 09 (Eye of the tiger): added steel
Legend 11 (Living on a prayer): added upward arrows (that act as steel)
Legend 13 (Nothing else matters): added upward arrows (that act as steel)
Legend 17 (Y. Lem C. A.): added steel
Legend 19 (Imagine): no backroute fix needed; I just corrected the starting position of the screen (that sometimes gets displaced during conversion)
Legend 22 (Blowing in the wind): added a steel ceiling where relevant to keep the zombie Climbers from killing themselves. This ceiling wasn't added to Old Formats (although I usually try to do that), because the Old-Formats editor doesn't offer the option of drawing a mass-selection window around everything to move the entire level down 2 pixels (=the width of the ceiling). I would have had to move all the pieces in this really large level by hand. Note that in Old Formats, the ceiling is always solid, so this is not relevant for the solvability of the level. I just tried to also include all the steel ceilings in Old Formats retroactively in order to reduce confusion for players switching back and forth between versions
Legend 23 (Wish you were here): added one-way left arrows (that act as steel)
Legend 24 (Let my Lems open the door): added downward arrows
Legend 25 (I will survive): added steel next to the exit; however, IchoTolot's awesome alternative solution remains intact; this is just a precaution I wanted to take against possible other backroutes
Legend 26 (Time to say goodbye): added one-way left arrows (that act as steel)
Legend 30 (Knocking on Heaven's door): added an additional exit button
Legend 34 (Purple Haze): shortened one stalactite a few pixels so that Platformers below a certain altitude can't reach it anymore
Legend 37 (Breaking the law): added steel; this might make the final skill assignment slightly more precise (it already is quite precise), but I think there should be enough leeway not to tank on the steel. Sadly, the way I originally wanted to fix this level (with one-way arrows) didn't work, since there was no way of placing one-way arrows that wouldn't have broken the intended solution as well.
Legend 38: again, added a steel ceiling to keep zombie Climbers from killing themselves (this ceiling is also not present in Old Formats for the reasons stated above)

Deliberately unfixed:

Legend 05 (Hallelujah): I could have gone with a different exit (a lockable one) and enforce the intended solution slightly more by using buttons, but I decided not to. The Pillar exit used here actually has a locked version in New Formats, but not in Old Formats.
Legend 35 (Scarborough Fair): IchoTolot's timing-based solution uses fewer skills, but is still a clever one, so I decided to continue to allow it

Currently unfixable:
All of these levels are playable
, of course; it's just that the intended solution is so complex that it requires more skills than any simpler shortcut currently available.

Legend 02 (Purple Rain)
Legend 10 (Wind of Change)
Legend 15 (Waterloo)
Legend 28 (Just a little bit)

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

IchoTolot