[DISCUSSION][PLAYER] Neutral lemmings vs nuke

[namida]

This came up on Discord - for the upcoming neutral lemmings feature, how should they interact with the nuke?

The problem arises from this: Part of how neutrals work is that you shouldn't be able to directly make them do anything. (Of course, you can indirectly do so - they'll turn around at blockers still, for example, or you can modify the terrain to affect where they walk.) If the nuke affects them, this violates this rule, as you can now nuke them similarly to existing levels involving the nuke in the solution.

The obvious solution is "the nuke doesn't affect them, then". At least one user was opposed to this in and of itself - as the neutral lemmings are more of an ally than an enemy (unlike zombies), so should be included in the nuke. Aside from that, which is at least worthy of giving thought to; since the game should not terminate when only neutrals remain (as some of them may be able to walk to the exit still, despite no more regular lemmings existing), not including neutrals would have the effect that the nuke doesn't actually terminate gameplay on levels that include them.

It appears this is a situation where a special edge-case rule is needed. Two proposals have come up so far:

1. If only neutral lemmings remain and the nuke has been activated, gameplay terminates. This feels a bit rough (especially if the nuke is used with only neutrals remaining, in which case it would instantly exit the level), but does have the advantage of - as far as I can see - no unintended side effects.

2. The nuke affects neutral lemmings, but neutral lemmings do no damage when exploding. However, this still allows for very subtle ways of manipulating the neutral lemmings via this. The simplest setup would be to have a locked exit, which the neutral lemming will usually go past by the time it opens; however, them ohno'ing holds them in place until it opens, thus allowing them to exit through it. More complex setups could include avoiding a floater or updraft fall slowing via an ohnoer, or using the same kind of delay trick to drop a neutral lemming into a trap and thus allow a non-neutral (or just a different neutral) to pass. Giving neutrals immunity to objects after the nuke is activated - or perhaps, once they begin ohno'ing - avoids this, but then gives rise to the opposite issue - what if there's just a traditional "group up and nuke 'em" level but includes some neutrals, should they not be able to exit along with the regular lemmings that would do so here?

Given the side effects of option #2, and that any mitigation of them just raises new side effects, I want to say I'm leaning more towards option #1 - but let's see what everyone else thinks.

[Crane]

I am personally leaning towards #1 if only because, originally, the nuke was there to get rid of blockers (e.g. Fun 3) or just to have some fun when you've screwed up.

It is a bit difficult though because some levels use the nuke as an extra bomber or two in order to get at least part of a trapped crowd to the exit.  This might be unfair in that regular lemmings blowing up may change the terrain enough to allow neutral lemmings to reach the exit if given more time, but this is a bit of an edge case and having the nuke not actually terminate the level violates its design.  Similarly, I'm of the agreement that the nuke doesn't give a countdown to neutral lemmings, because while they aren't enemies like zombies, they aren't your friends or allies either and helping them to the exit is just a means to an end, not necessarily a common goal in their minds (who knows what they think!).

So, long story short, I'm for #1.

ADDENDUM: One similar situation is 2-player lemmings from Amiga and Genesis Lemmings.  The lemmings belonging to the opposing player aren't your friends, but if you can guide them into your own exit, then it works in your favour.  In the case of nuking them, both players have to agree to the action.

[IchoTolot]

I am leaning a bit more towards 2.), as they still feel like my lemmings (or at least allies) to me, only that I cannot assign skills to them.

I would even slightly argue for adding the destruction part of the nuke to them as well even if this violates the "you cannot control them" rule, as I picture them still as normal lemmings apart from the not being able to assign skills point.

The nuke is also there to terminate all lemmings and I would count neutrals towards that.

I think kieranmillar also put it very well together in discord:

The nuke is the "abandon level" button in all of the official Lemmings games. The level ends when all lemmings die, and nuke kills them all. Seems very clear to me that nuke should kill all neutrals too.

So, I would still make a call for 2.) with nuke desruction (so a normal nuke ). Fully aware of the rule violation. Maybe a better rule would simply be "you cannot assign them skills" in that case.

With the new cases from Simon that would be option 3.) then.

[Simon]

#3. Nuke affects neutrals and they make craters.

#4. Nuke affects neutrals and zombies. How much collateral damage will happen? Zombie pit above an exit would generate many points on nuke, à la Surprise Package. Zombies wouldn't score anyway.

#5. Redesign the nuke as a fancy way to terminate the level immediately, i.e., close goals once player nukes. You can then include/exclude neutrals without fear of forward compatibility, it's all eye candy. Collateral damage is that nuke levels become impossible.



If neutrals aren't nuked, why do they keep gameplay running when all lemmings are gone?

Assuming you have a reason for that, #1 sounds plausible.

#2 is weirder than #3, and #3 is also plausible. Kieran didn't mention the difference, unsure if he would prefer #2 or #3.

Really, #5 feels the best, it's so obviously correct and perfect, but people won't want #5.

-- Simon

[kieranmillar]

#2 is weirder than #3, and #3 is also plausible. Kieran didn't mention the difference, unsure if he would prefer #2 or #3.

In this case, #3 or even #4 would be preferable to me than #2.

Will you be able to have a hatch that only spits out neutral lemmings? If so, will changing the release rate also affect this hatch? If yes, then already there was a plan to have neutral lemmings be affected by a non-skill bottom-panel player action and so therefore having the nuke affect them too is not inconsistent. I think "neutrals can't be assigned skills" is a cleaner implementation anyway. Can a hatch deliver neutrals with permanent skills? I would argue yes, this would be interesting mechanically and still wouldn't violate the "the player can't assign them skills" rule.

[ccexplore]

2. The nuke affects neutral lemmings, but neutral lemmings do no damage when exploding. However, this still allows for very subtle ways of manipulating the neutral lemmings via this. The simplest setup would be to have a locked exit, which the neutral lemming will usually go past by the time it opens; however, them ohno'ing holds them in place until it opens, thus allowing them to exit through it. More complex setups could include avoiding a floater or updraft fall slowing via an ohnoer, or using the same kind of delay trick to drop a neutral lemming into a trap and thus allow a non-neutral (or just a different neutral) to pass. Giving neutrals immunity to objects after the nuke is activated - or perhaps, once they begin ohno'ing - avoids this, but then gives rise to the opposite issue - what if there's just a traditional "group up and nuke 'em" level but includes some neutrals, should they not be able to exit along with the regular lemmings that would do so here?

How about if we say nuked neutral lemmings simply do not ohno, they just directly explode no matter what?  And they also do no damage when exploding due to nuke.

I'm kind of curious now what happens in the game Clones, which is the only Lemmings-like game I'm aware of that already has some form of neutrals.  If memory serves, I believe the equivalent of nuke there will not affect neutrals, but the level will still end shortly after all your regular non-neutral lemmings are gone (via any means, nuke or not), regardless of how many neutrals are still left around.  I'm actually 99.99% sure this is the case the more I think about it, because I explicitly made use of that property in that game, such that in some cases I can save same amount of lemmings (which will be a mix of neutrals and non-neutrals), but potentially get a faster level completion time if I can arrange to have one last non-neutral lemming followed behind by some neutrals all heading to exit. Because in that game there's always a 1-2 second delay between last non-neutral lemming gone and the level actually stopping (IIRC you can't cut off earlier in that game without the attempt considered abandoned, even if it already saved enough).  Anyway, I'll verify later tonight when I have the chance to do so.  I'll add that I don't have an issue with the behavior chosen by Clones in that regard.

My gut intuition would prefer nuke not having effect on neutral lemmings.  However, I think most people do see that the nuke isn't really like another regular skill, so I don't think it's too outrageous either that the nuke could be blowing up neutrals as well.

I actually don't mind Simon's proposal #5 either, that maybe we disabled the exits as soon as nuke is initiated, so it is purely just a fun way to blow off the level rather than nuke possibly being a solution strategy.  It is clearly originally meant as just "a fun way to blow off the level", although even the original game developers eventually realized its potential as a solution strategy, featuring exactly one level that requires nuke to solve (though arguably a bit of a joke level) in Xmas Lemmings 94.

[namida]

featuring exactly one level that requires nuke to solve (though arguably a bit of a joke level) in Xmas Lemmings 94.

Another case came up in Discord actually - the Genesis level, somewhere in mid-late Present, "A Trap Is A Trap". While there are non-nuke solutions (that, on real hardware, would've needed some very precise bomber timing), this level can also be solved with a nuke solution apparently.

[ccexplore]

Interesting.  I looked at the level and yes, I guess nuke likely can be viable solution.  But it seems pretty clear to me they intended non-nuke solutions instead, and after a quick play I don't feel it requires much precision either.  Once you work out a good location to assign the first bomber, you can basically just assign the next few bombers at the exact same location, leaving the release rate at the initial value.  After around 4-5 bombers, the falls on the right will become safe and victory is just one blocker away.  The same low save requirement that makes nuke solution feasible, also makes it pretty forgiving using regular bombers.

In contrast, the Xmas level I alluded to, really does force you to solve by nuking, as you're given practically no skills whatsoever to do anything different.

====================

Back to topic.  I guess the two main decision points are:

1) Per Simon's proposal #5, we could change the discussion instead to one about culling nuke solutions, then it wouldn't matter at least solution-wise how neutrals behave wrt nuking.  Perhaps worth a separate discussion topic, though I also suspect you'd rather not hold up release of neutrals on that.

2) If nuke solutions are to stay, then how much or little does nuke affect neutrals?  On one extreme, they have no effect whatsoever, and maybe the level will truly never end automatically (user must abort the level) as long as there are neutrals remaining.  On the other extreme, they behave completely identically to non-neutrals when it comes to nuke, ohnoing and taking out terrain no different from everyone else.  And a few variations in between, where the neutrals are nukable, but behaves in less exploitable ways.

We could certainly take a narrower view on what "neutrality" means, and consider it as only prohibiting regular skill assignments.  Others may take a slightly broader view and consider it as disallowing all "direct influence" on a neutral, leaving only indirect influence via environmental changes as the way to work with neutrals.  The release rate is an interesting gray area where you could read it either way:  in one sense it does provide fairly direct control over the timing of when each lemming comes out; at the same time, you can argue that you are only controlling the entrances, and the entrances in turn affect the timing of when lemmings come out.

Having nuke potentially abruptly end the level when only neutrals are left, might be okay if you educate users to expect that beforehand.  For example, maybe whenever the game detects only neutrals are left (for any reasons), it could pop up or display some message notifying the player to that fact, and explain that they need to either ESC to quit the level directly, or they can try nuking and we will basically also treat it like an ESC.

[Proxima]

"A Trap Is A Trap". While there are non-nuke solutions (that, on real hardware, would've needed some very precise bomber timing)

No more precise than the bomber timing the original game already requires, e.g. Bomboozal, and the Genesis adaptation of Many lemmings make level work.

* * *

Now that I've had more time to think about it, I've mostly changed my view. More than 90% of the time, the player's intention when they click nuke is to end the level, so that's what it should do. Just kill everyone -- neutrals and zombies included. That's the metaphor behind the word "nuke" (= nuclear bomb) in the first place. Sure, you can exploit the corner case of the nuke being the only way to make a neutral explode, but the player will have many chances to observe that this happens, so it's not unfair in the same way as levels exploiting glitches (back in the bad old days).

Having nuke potentially abruptly end the level when only neutrals are left, might be okay if you educate users to expect that beforehand.  For example, maybe whenever the game detects only neutrals are left (for any reasons), it could pop up or display some message notifying the player to that fact, and explain that they need to either ESC to quit the level directly, or they can try nuking and we will basically also treat it like an ESC.

I'm against this, because there is legitimate puzzle potential in levels that require the last (or only) normal lemming to die in a way that allows neutrals to be saved. There could be some kind of indicator, like the "dead music" in Baba is You, that you cannot take any actions any more; but it should not interrupt gameplay.

[Crane]

Truth be said, changing it so the nuke kills all lemmings, neutrals and zombies included, would be the cleanest solution, since it is the "nuke it from orbit" option.  Removing certain puzzle potential in that regard may be a price worth paying so that the nuke's advertised function - ending the level in a blaze of glory - is still honoured.  One thing I will not accept under any circumstance though is a situation where one can activate the nuke and the level doesn't end in finite time.

[namida]

Hm. I do have to say - if the nuke were to affect zombies too, I think I'd feel better with it affecting neutrals than I would if it remained not affecting zombies. I don't think any levels would break as a result of this change; the only nuke level that also involves zombies that I know of...

Spoiler

...only uses the nuke to stop any more lemmings from spawning. And this is only required for a talisman solution.

[Dullstar]

Having all types of lemmings affected by the nuke seems simple and consistent to me.

[ccexplore]

Just want to add in my vote, that having nuke explode everyone equally (with equal effects in terms of ohno, terrain removal etc.) sounds fine to me and I do like the total simplicity of such a rule.  It sounds like we have pretty close to consensus on this matter now (those who still feel strongly otherwise, speak up now!).

Sure, you can exploit the corner case of the nuke being the only way to make a neutral explode, but the player will have many chances to observe that this happens, so it's not unfair in the same way as levels exploiting glitches (back in the bad old days).

I mostly agree, except I also think you might be over-estimating use of nuke slightly.  Maybe I'm jaded but the novelty of nuking wears off quickly, and it's more efficient for me to just press ESC to end the level, or whatever other key it is to restart the level, when I need to.  I value the instant quickness of doing so over the soon-repetitive theatrics of the nuke.

That is to say, it's not hard for me to imagine a NeoLemmix player who will never run into nuking of neutrals during their playing of many levels, unless they come across a level where neutrals exist and a nuke solution is actually required.  I still agree it's relatively fair compared to things like glitches though, and certainly easy enough to test compared to all manners of glitches or even just special tricks that exist in the game.

[Nessy]

Sorry to say that I don't agree with Simon's proposal #5. I don't like being narrowed minded on things and I always believed "just because you can doesn't mean you should" to be true, but I don't think that applies in this case. Changing the nuke behavior so that it's just eye-candy is going to break levels that use the nuke as part of the solution. This is probably worthy of another debate but I never really had a problem nuke solutions. In my mind it was always logical, and you can make some pretty insane and memorable levels with it. The nuke just assigns a "timed bomber" to all lemmings, and a nuke solution takes advantage of that in the same way someone would take advantage of blockers to turn other skills around as an example. Of course, this falls under the same category of every other type of trick in the book that if you are going to do it make sure it isn't stupidly precise or unfair, but yeah that's the case for everything else anyway.

So anyway: I'm also in favor of having the nuke affect everyone equally

[namida]

It seems there's enough preference towards the "nuke affects everyone, even zombies", so I'm going to go with that. I've implemented it in commit 8b9ef32.

I'll leave the topic open until V12.7 RC is released in case a really strong argument against this comes along.