How do you feel about vertical scrolling?

[Strato Incendus]

I'm kind of torn about whether I should make more use of vertical scrolling in my levels - especially when it comes to my L2-style pack Lemmings Hall of Fame.

On the one hand, vertical scrolling seems to be very typical of Lemmings 2, and while playing the original levels, it contributes significantly to the feeling of playing Lemmings 2 (if it just weren't for all that annoying execution madness with the fan).

On the other hand, vertical scroling in NeoLemmix makes it much harder for me to judge the fall height without resorting to the splat ruler. Also, the pre-level screens in a classical Lemmings shell are made for wide levels; whenever they have to display vertical levels, those levels need to be shrunk, so you can barely see anything, while the horizontal dimension is barely used.

Finally, even in L2, there are a lot of one-screeners without vertical scrolling.

Hence, I'm not sure whether vertical scrolling is one of the L2 annoyances I want to remove when making a NeoLemmix adaptation, just like the fan and all the execution stuff, or whether it's something so essential to L2 that it should remain to create that L2 feeling - just like the additional skills, specifically Platformer, Swimmer, Stacker, Fencer, Shimmier, (Hang) Glider, and Jumper.

So I just wanted to ask you all about the overall popularity of vertical scrolling, and how many of you would or would not enjoy seeing it more frequently, specifically in NeoLemmix (not talking about Lix or other engines)?

[NieSch]

I wouldn't make vertical scrolling levels just for the sake of it. But sometimes making use of vertical scrolling can help execute a certain level idea.

I've made two vertical scrolling levels (included in the pack "Yippee! More Lemmings") that are both "beat the crowd" levels that I'm quite happy with.

Spoiler

Liftboy Wanted


Rough and Rocky

So if it fits the level idea you've got I don't see why you shouldn't make it a vertical scrolling level.

[namida]

Vertical scrolling for the sake of doing so should be avoided. This is true for most things - don't use a feature just for the sake of using it, or just because it exists. Use it when you've got an idea that makes good use of it - this doesn't necesserially have to be a physics-related use, it could be artistic value, but there should still be an actual point to it (and it shouldn't be frustrating on the physics side in any case).

When used suitably, it is not a bad thing in and of itself.

[IchoTolot]

A level is as big as I need/want it to be. When I need more height I use vertical scrolling and don't let myself be limited by the standard 160 pixel height. That's how I feel about vertical scrolling.

Oh, and I love to make levels that are exactly 1 screen in width, but then have a larger height.

[ccexplore]

Most levels in Lemmings 2 use vertical scrolling in the sense of making use of the greater available level area, but even then I'd say many levels are still predominantly horizontal, or perhaps evenly horizontal and vertical.  Certainly it is rarer to see predominantly vertical levels.

I don't have anything against vertical scrolling.  I think it's a good idea to feature it a bit more to make it feel more Lemmings 2 like you said, but I also wouldn't go out of my way to force levels to be taller than one screen if its design doesn't really need it to be.

The two "against" reasons you listed yourself aren't particularly strong reasons IMO.

On the other hand, vertical scroling in NeoLemmix makes it much harder for me to judge the fall height without resorting to the splat ruler.

To be honest I'm not convinced why that would be the case, doesn't NeoLemmix always display 160 pixels (or whatever the max non-scrolling height is) vertically at a time even when there are more to scroll to?  How does the parts of level not visible be affecting judgment of fall distance?  But then again I haven't played a lot in recent years, and I'm probably the type to always just use the splat ruler anyway.

Also, the pre-level screens in a classical Lemmings shell are made for wide levels; whenever they have to display vertical levels, those levels need to be shrunk, so you can barely see anything, while the horizontal dimension is barely used.

To be fair, that's more a design defect of the pre-level screens.  Lemmings 2 clearly shows that there are ways to do the pre-level screen without exhibiting the issues you stated.  I wouldn't take the current design of the pre-level screen as representing any kind of preference for or against vertical scrolling.

------------

It's worth noting that Lemmings 2 has a much higher safe fall distance, and it also has a bunch of skills not available in NeoLemmix to help getting lemmings upward quickly (eg. ropers, twisters perhaps, but also many of the fan skills to at least get a single lemming up, to then pave a path for the rest).  And there are skills and features also not available in NeoLemmix that naturally require a bit of open space to operate effectively (eg. projectile skills, swings and catapults).  So perhaps you'll find yourself generally not using up as much vertical space in NeoLemmix, as you might if you were to actually create a level in Lemmings 2.

[ccexplore]

Just want to mention that NeoLemmix's fencer and glider skills have more vertical movement compared to Lemmings 2's.  So while other aspects of NeoLemmix may perhaps call for less use of vertical height, there are also features in NeoLemmix that could naturally call for more use of vertical height as well.

[namida]

To be honest I'm not convinced why that would be the case, doesn't NeoLemmix always display 160 pixels (or whatever the max non-scrolling height is) vertically at a time even when there are more to scroll to?  How does the parts of level not visible be affecting judgment of fall distance?

This was the case up to V1.43. Nowdays, NeoLemmix will just take whatever screen area (or window area, when running in windowed mode) isn't taken up by the skill panel, and display as much of the level as possible for the user's current zoom - this is why terms like "one screen" are arguably meaningless in modern NL, because unless two people have the same screen resolution, OS magnification, window size (if in Windowed mode) and zoom, what takes up "one screen" will be different for each of them.

I don't know how well I explained this, might be easier to see it in action - see IchoTolot's video of his solution to Lemmings Plus Alpha, Obliteration 14 "Wasted Talent", which is a level larger in both dimensions than 320x160, and at one point zoom is also used to emphasize a trick.

[ccexplore]

You explained it perfectly fine, so basically it's now like Lix and will actually use up the available space on the screen to display if the level needs it.  So yet another case where "if ccexplore says something about NeoLemmix, assume at least half the time it's wrong. ".

Are most NeoLemmix levels still at minimum height then?  If how much of the level you can see can already vary even without any actual vertical scrolling, and if that really has an effect on how well people can eyeball safe fall distance, then arguably it's not really an issue with scrolling per se anymore.

[namida]

Are most NeoLemmix levels still at minimum height then?

No, there are few if any NeoLemmix levels that are 1px tall. (Random trivia: The smallest level I'm aware of is The Longest Second, which exists more as a technical demonstration than a real-world level - it was created to prove that a non-trivial level with a 1 second time limit can be made. It's 52x27, although the physics side of things could work in as small an area as 7x9.)

On the other hand, I would say that the majority of levels definitely do still stick to the default height of 160px. I suspect this is due to it being the default, rather than due to any inherent preference or advantage, and that if I were to sneakily change the default, the new default would in time become the most common height.

[grams88]

I like vertical scrolling, a lot of my levels have that and also in the new some pack I'm making, I liked how in lemmings two the tribes there was a certain area in the map, that was set for decoration but I thought that was kind of cool. A few levels from lemmings 2 tribes comes to mind with that whole thing.

I kind of want to encourage others to make vertical type levels.

[Strato Incendus]

Ah yeah, I've been playing a little of your pack Ski-Sloping Lemmings, and that frequent use of vertical scrolling immediately stuck out to me! Then again, I thought that was on purpose to simulate the idea of Lemmings going down a mountain / ski slope on almost every level. So I wasn't sure whether this was your level-building style in general, or just a creative decision you had taken for this pack specifically.

Sadly, the Groupie rank in Lemmings World Tour is already completed - by this point I'm pretty sure I'd be able to create a level in your style... I could do something like a Groupie rank again in another pack, of course - the reception of that rank specifically was very positive, to say the least, as far as I could tell. I have a couple of ideas for more levels dedicated to other forum members - not enough for an entire rank, least of all a separate pack, though...

Apart from you, I understood most of the other users who commented here in a way more along the lines of "only use vertical scrolling when necessary". I'm not sure whether avoiding doing something for the sake of it is just part of the general idea that you shouldn't include anything in a level just for the sake of it, or whether it's something specific about vertical scrolling that makes it a "necessary evil" for levels that do require it, but something that should be avoided otherwise?

Oh, and I love to make levels that are exactly 1 screen in width, but then have a larger height.

Yes, those I also like quite a lot, indeed! One specific positive example that comes to my mind is "The Octathlon" from Lemmings 2 in the Sports tribe. The main issue with this is the variable definition of what is 1 screen in width - my screen seems to be wider than the average, which is why I practically never use the default width of 320 pixels, because that always leaves ugly grey spaces on both sides. The level height, in contrast, seems to be sized automatically in such a way that you don't have to scroll up or down to see everything in a standard, 160-pixel-height level, at the same time as not leaving any grey borders at the top or bottom.

I think what we can take away from this is that having to scroll into two directions simultaneously is more annoying than having to scroll only either left/right or up/down.

But if I create a level that's exactly one screen width on my computer, i.e. not horizontal scrolling required, and instead include vertical scrolling, someone with a narrower screen will still have to scroll in both dimensions when playing that level, thereby destroying the feeling of such a "one-screen-width" level.

[grams88]

Hi Strato Incendus

I like your thoughts process there, a lot of the levels from the ski sloping lemmings do have the vertical scrlling and it does sort of feel like a ski slope in a sense, never thought of it that way too much myself but it does feel as it comes off as that.

I like the idea of creating levels inspired by other level pack creators, that's a good idea. That would probably give a lot of the levels a uniqueness feel to it. Funny thing was I remember watching a few people play lemmings or lets play of lemmings, they were thinking that the design of the original and oh no more lemmings was quite good, I wonder if it was the original or oh no more that had a lot of decoration or terrain that you shouldn't really use in a solution attempt. (Casade, Lost something had decoration to the left and right if I remember correctly.

Maybe if the vertical scrolling is used too many times it could maybe be a bad thing, I don't think personally it would be a bad thing. I think I do like my vertical scrolling levels and also the one screen levels if we can get it to the right size.

When thinking about lemmings 2 the tribes, I noticed a lot of the Egyptian levels had the vertical scrolling, well that's one that tends to come to mind when thinking vertical scrolling for me anyway.

[ccexplore]

I think what we can take away from this is that having to scroll into two directions simultaneously is more annoying than having to scroll only either left/right or up/down.

Is it really though?  That would make the large majority of Lemmings 2 levels "annoying".  Outside of Classic tribe I believe most are both tall and wide.  Only a much smaller portion are one screen wide with multi-screen vertical scrolling.

Also think about it this way:  if you take the same tall level, and insist it must be changed to be no taller than 160 pixels, and assuming all areas of the level are involved in the solution.  Then all those level areas would basically have to be relocated to locations further left and/or right of the current horizontal span of the level.  So sure, no more vertical scrolling, but you end up having to scroll horizontally more times and/and a bit further too.  Oh, and there's a decent chance your lemmings might now have to spend more time walking to the exit after the change (though I guess there's fast-forward options so maybe that doesn't matter much).  Are all that really better?

Lemmings 2 may have many faults, but I don't feel that the vertical scrolling aspect would be on most people's top 3 or even top 10 list of dislikes for that game (heck, it's probably not a dislike at all for most, maybe a "meh" for some).  And certainly for level designers it is a great option to have, however frequently or infrequently they choose to use it.  I think it is unusual for most level designers to explicitly focus on how many of their levels should have or not have vertical scrolling--like most people said, it usually just falls out directly from the level's design, rather than other way around.  But with "making it feel like Lemmings 2" being an explicit design goal in your case though, I think it is fine to make an exception and consciously try to lean more towards level designs that make use of more vertical real estate.  That being said, just using the Lemmings 2 graphics will already make it feel pretty Lemmings 2, I don't know if you also have to focus that much on comparatively minor details like how much vertical scrolling to feature.

[namida]

I'm not sure whether avoiding doing something for the sake of it is just part of the general idea that you shouldn't include anything in a level just for the sake of it, or whether it's something specific about vertical scrolling that makes it a "necessary evil" for levels that do require it, but something that should be avoided otherwise?

I would say that most of the arguments about vertical scrolling (aside from those that relate to splat distance) apply equally to horizontal scrolling, and can simply be generalized to "don't make the level huge for no reason".

Note the "for no reason" here. If there's an actual reason - even just an artistic one rather than something functional - to do so, then that's a different matter, and you can absolutely make your level huge. For examples, look at IchoTolot's levels - he's made a lot of levels that are huge, yet basically every part of the level has a point to it.

[namida]

One other consideration I thought of here: Aside from whether a level size is excessive for gameplay reasons, there's also the concern of performance, especially for those with weaker PCs. This mostly comes down to the overall area of the level, rather than specifically the width or height - so it's of biggest concern to levels that scroll in both directions, where the area can very quickly get to quite high numbers.