Yippee! More Lemmings [Difficulty: Easy-Hard]

[Armani]

I really enjoyed this pack so that I can't stop playing and I finished all the levels at one sitting

I love the levels with new skill. Especially "Tarzan and Jane" is my favorite.
(idk the exact name of the skill,one that grab the ceiling and move forward)

I attached my solutions.

[NieSch]

I really enjoyed this pack so that I can't stop playing and I finished all the levels at one sitting

Wow, that's a great achievement.

[WillLem]

These levels are fantastically put together, very well done! I'm not used to the NeoLemmix-specific skills yet so it's been very difficult to get my head around these. I've managed to get as far as Mayhem, but not without a few hints along the way.

Attached my replays so far. I really want to have a go at getting through the Mayhem levels without using your replays at all. I'll need to sleep on these first though, the solutions will probably come to me in a dream!

[NieSch]

Thanks WillLem! It was fun watching your solutions. They're a nice combination of intended solutions and inventive alternative ones.

[WillLem]

Thanks WillLem! It was fun watching your solutions. They're a nice combination of intended solutions and inventive alternative ones.

Haha, to be honest I needed a hint for almost every Taxing level - any intended solutions here are almost certainly down to a prompt from the replays:

Spoiler

In particular, Enjoy Yourself seems almost impossible without knowing that you have to send your hero to the left first, and your use of stackers to create climbable terrain is very much a new thing to an old-schooler like me!

Also, I almost got Bashing Through The Snow entirely on my own, but needed that hint as to what to do with the stacker - very clever indeed!

A lot of these levels require such specific use of skills and in a very particular order, almost none of the solutions are obvious. I guess you should take that as a compliment from a design/creativity point of view, for sure - but from a player's point of view it is nice to have the odd level where the solution is obvious and it's more about actually getting the execution just right (I know this isn't a very popular point of view on this forum, but I always get a kick out of getting something stategically easy but technically difficult just right.) To be fair, your levels are a pretty potent mix of both in many cases!

I'm determined to do all of the Mayhem levels without using hints; I'm still on Pythagolem's Theorem!

[NieSch]

Spoiler

In particular, Enjoy Yourself seems almost impossible without knowing that you have to send your hero to the left first, and your use of stackers to create climbable terrain is very much a new thing to an old-schooler like me!

There are other options. And the stacker/climber thing is something I made sure had to be done/learned already in Fun 4. (I did this with other things too.

Spoiler

Even in Fun 1 there's something that comes back later in one of the Mayhem levels.)

[ccexplore]

A lot of these levels require such specific use of skills and in a very particular order, almost none of the solutions are obvious. I guess you should take that as a compliment from a design/creativity point of view, for sure - but from a player's point of view it is nice to have the odd level where the solution is obvious and it's more about actually getting the execution just right (I know this isn't a very popular point of view on this forum, but I always get a kick out of getting something stategically easy but technically difficult just right.) To be fair, your levels are a pretty potent mix of both in many cases!

To be fair, there is a recognition that the custom levels here tend to skew more difficult from puzzle standpoint compared to the original games', and that we probably need a better balance of easier levels to make things more accessible for more people.  There is also discussions on providing levels and packs that help teach some of the more advanced moves that have become commonplace in custom levels.

I think people here tend to look for other games for technically difficult executions if they look for that at all.  For example, Simon Na who created Lix, is a pretty vocal proponent of adding game features to ease executions and remove elements from levels and game that only introduces execution difficulties, yet he is also an avid speedrunner of the Jazz JackRabbit games, an activity all about nailing difficult executions (well, there are also some strategies involved, but execution is definitely a core part).  I think the faster pacing and more direct controls you get from platformer kind of games work much better for execution-emphasized style of gameplay compared to Lemmings games.

I think the execution-heavy kind of gameplay can be very much like practicing on the piano for a piano player.  There is inevitably going to be a lot of mindful repetitions involved to get things burned into muscle and mind memory.  Some people can find doing that very zen, but at the same time, even for professional piano players, practicing will always tend to be at least a little bit of a chore, the tax you pay to get to the point where execution is no longer an issue and you can actually focus on the more creative and rewarding aspects like musical interpretation.

I think most popular games out there do tend to emphasize execution a bit more than puzzles, so the comparatively rarer games that lean in opposite direction, being much more towards puzzles compared to execution, like Lemmings, will tend to attract players with tastes aligned accordingly, and the direction of this community is kind of a reflection of that I think.

[WillLem]

To be fair, there is a recognition that the custom levels here tend to skew more difficult from puzzle standpoint compared to the original games', and that we probably need a better balance of easier levels to make things more accessible for more people.  There is also discussions on providing levels and packs that help teach some of the more advanced moves that have become commonplace in custom levels.

Playing this pack and Strato's Lemmicks have highlighted quite a few advanced moves that I would never have guessed at (and, with the latter, not just in the context of the various gimmicks). I think the key with learning these is repetition - have several easy levels which use the same trick again and again so that the player is used to recognising it as a possible tool in the context of a trickier puzzle.

I think the execution-heavy kind of gameplay can be very much like practicing on the piano for a piano player.  There is inevitably going to be a lot of mindful repetitions involved to get things burned into muscle and mind memory.

If this concept was applied as "puzzle-memory", this is exactly what needs to happen with beginner levels - repetition of advanced puzzle moves in easier contexts which equip the player with the tools needed to solve more difficult puzzles.

{Side note - when I talk about execution difficulty, I don't always mean physically pressing the mouse buttons at the right time (NeoLemmix all but removes the need for that sort of thing anyway), I'm referring more to the difficulty involved in actually carrying out a solution once it's been identified, which can be down to timing/correct ordering of skills, pixel precise placement of a particular skill, or a combination of these and other more mechanical gameplay elements.}

Practice needn't be a chore, and it needn't be purely mechanical. I happen to be a piano player so I understand your metaphor quite well, and I always practice in ways that satisfy me musically as well as focusing on technique.

What's needed here is someone who's willing to make good quality easy levels, which are enjoyable to play and just challenging enough to maintain interest. IchoTolot's Introduction pack seems to do a fairly good job of this task, but it seems unfair to leave it to one person. If there is genuine interest in making some more progress-based levels to teach people the various skills (i.e. not just what the skill does, but the various different ways in which it can be used), maybe a collaboration of sorts would be a good idea to get this put together. There's definitely enough level design talent on here; if a small team of creators joined minds, it's possible to create something that fits the bill and hopefully encourages more people to get involved.

Anyways, to comment on this pack directly: it's nothing short of genius, IMHO! I found a lot of it unsolvable, and probably had more fun watching the replays to see how it was done, kind of like the end of a Jonathan Creek episode!

I think it's fair to say that it's almost impossible complete this pack without prior knowledge of the various tricks used, and I'm sure the same goes for a lot of other level packs on the forum (I've seen similar levels in a few other packs I've looked at so far - you have to know the tricks to get the solutions). Introductory/beginner packs would come in handy here, to make packs such as this that bit more enjoyable (but no less challenging).

NieSch - I've attached my Mayhem & Bonus replays, but tbh they're identical to your solutions because I ultimately needed your replays in order to get the solutions. It was fun playing through them anyway, there's some great little tricks in here which were satisfying to get right (in the end!)

All best,

-WillLem

[Strato Incendus]

Did somebody say "let's teach players skill tricks"?

Playing this pack and Strato's Lemmicks have highlighted quite a few advanced moves that I would never have guessed at

I'm glad you could acquire some new knowledge from playing Lemmicks! Strangely enough, though, that wasn't actually the prime objective of this pack. Any tricks Lemmicks teaches that I can remember off the top of my head are mostly related to outdated features, such as solid level sides and ghosts.

The Noisemaker and Amateur rank of my pack Lemmings World Tour are actually much more directed specifically at teaching various skill tricks to the player. I'll admit though that some of them might still be slightly too difficult for that - based on feedback by IchoTolot - despite me announcing almost every trick in advance via a pre-level screen.

However, there is no immediate "trick repetition" on these levels - one level, one trick to learn. Most of the tricks taught on these two ranks come up again later, but without prior announcement than, plus there's a bunch of levels in between, so the player could forget again.

If this concept was applied as "puzzle-memory", this is exactly what needs to happen with beginner levels - repetition of advanced puzzle moves in easier contexts which equip the player with the tools needed to solve more difficult puzzles.

I think the main reason this hasn't been done so far is that people don't want to overdo certain tricks. For example, during the early phase of level creation for Lemmings Open Air, I created several levels in a row using the Miner-Miner-cancel trick, or several levels where Miners had to be forced to continue over Builder staircases. Now I feel I'm overusing the Shimmier. When eventually deciding upon the final level order, most content creators will probably not put levels requiring the same trick back-to-back.

The second thing which I noticed is that, even if you create a level specifically to teach a trick, many of these levels still can't enforce the use of said track with absolute certainty. And on the other hand, if you want to achieve this 100% certainty, the level must be simplified so far that it pretty much only consists of the trick and nothing else. This is great for teaching the trick for the first time - but if you repeat this concept e.g. five times in levels placed close to each other, the solution might get too easy to spot.

Then again, this automatisation of recognising potential for trick use is probably what you're going for?

Two examples from Lemmings World Tour on how this can or cannot work

Stop and stair (Noisemaker 18): This level teaches the three-Builder wall as a trick. At the same time, it also requires closing a Basher shaft by building behind him. I could have provided enough Builders to create a three-Builder wall behind and in front of the crowd to repeat the trick. But I actually think that would have made the level more difficult, because the crowd would have to turn around first, build three staircases, and only then could the last lemming be used to bash.

Rock, Paper, Scissors (Noisemaker 38): This level is supposed to teach the Stacker-Stoner trick. However, Colorful Arty and Flopsy found different solutions, that were still quite complex, but any player who would have found the same solution would have missed the opportunity to learn this trick. Therefore, I needed to restrict the possible solutions on this level even further. Only now does the level actually enforce the use of said trick, at least based on the replay I got from IchoTolot.

If you want to discuss the topic of "packs that teach advanced skill tricks to the player", we should probably split this off into a separate topic in the level-design subforum.


Regarding this pack, I still have some replays (created with NeoLemmix 12.6.5), but I also remember getting stuck somewhere. I actually went back to focus on Lemmings Reunion and NepsterLems first, because I had the feeling I needed to brush up on some more of my trick knowledge, as well.

That goes to show how difficult your pack is - when people go back to NepsterLems to adequately prepare for it.

Then again, this might simply be more of a self-confidence thing: I still remember NepsterLems as the most difficult pack out there, even though some claim that spot has now been taken by Lemmings United. Anyways, completing NepsterLems would probably give me the confidence - or hubris - to believe "if I can solve this, I can solve anything!" I think once you've beaten a difficult larger pack, you approach these smaller, but no less difficult packs (Integral Lemmings is another one that comes to mind) in a much more relaxed way.

[namida]

Then again, this might simply be more of a self-confidence thing: I still remember NepsterLems as the most difficult pack out there, even though some claim that spot has now been taken by Lemmings United. Anyways, completing NepsterLems would probably give me the confidence - or hubris - to believe "if I can solve this, I can solve anything!" I think once you've beaten a difficult larger pack, you approach these smaller, but no less difficult packs (Integral Lemmings is another one that comes to mind) in a much more relaxed way.

United is without a doubt harder than NepsterLems. I'm stuck in the 2nd rank in United. NepsterLems didn't have me completely stumped until about half way through the final rank. (Reunion I was able to complete, though I really struggled a lot towards the end.)

Don't let that weaken what NepsterLems signifies to you, though - it is still an incredibly hard pack, and any progress in the 3rd rank or later is very significant (and even the first two ranks are no pushovers for the most part).

[NieSch]

Funnily enough, my intention was to make a pack that wasn't too hard. Challenging sure, but you don't need to use a lot of advanced tricks to complete the levels. I think the most advanced it gets is:

Spoiler

capturing a lemming by platforming, using a stacker to fill up terrain to spare a basher, release a blocker by bashing or mining and turning around lemmings performing different skills with a blocker.

[Strato Incendus]

United is without a doubt harder than NepsterLems. I'm stuck in the 2nd rank in United.

So it's not just me then. I felt bad for not making it any further during testing, thus not being able to help out IchoTolot more. But he deliberately recruited players of varying skill levels, to my knowledge, so I guess that was his intention all along.

@NieSch: I've attached my replays. I could solve all of Fun, as well as three levels each from Tricky and Taxing. I've looked at most of the Mayhem levels and tried some stuff, but nothing seems to work out quite as I want it to. The two levels from Tricky which I couldn't solve most definitely involve flow control, which I'm notoriously bad at, so I guess that explains why I had to skip those for the time being.

[NieSch]

Thanks for your replays, Strato. I already saw some interesting new solutions! But I can't see them all and one of them (Bashing Through the Snow) doesn't work anymore since they're from an old version of the pack. My fault for not keeping available older versions, sorry about that.

[Strato Incendus]

Actually, only keeping around the current version is what I'd suggest to keep doing! That way you avoid people going back to older versions to "cheat" by exploiting already-patched-out backroutes.
(Unless you mean keeping around the old versions just for yourself, so that you can watch the replays, but players only have access to the latest version. )

I must have missed some update then... or it's just been a while since I've actually made attempts at this pack.

To my knowledge, it hasn't been updated for NeoLemmix 12.7 yet, has it? I'm keeping 12.6.5 around to play any non-updated packs, yours being one of them. I have only updated Lemmings Reunion and United, NepsterLems, SEB Lems, and my own Lemmings World Tour, as well as moving my packs in-creation to 12.7. For LWT, I've kept the 12.6.5 versions of the levels as backups.

[NieSch]

Actually, only keeping around the current version is what I'd suggest to keep doing!

Ok!

To my knowledge, it hasn't been updated for NeoLemmix 12.7 yet, has it?

That's right. It seems to work fine in 12.7 without updating. I didn't make use of pick-up skills and there's only one level with fire pits but that seems to be fine still. Or am I overlooking something?

I will make an updated version soon though. Thanks to all the replays all of you have been sharing (thanks so much!) there are some new backroutes that I'd like to fix. One of them is your backroute of Signs To Guide You.