Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[namida]

Q1 "PoP YoR ToP"

I'd lean very slightly towards flip. EDIT: Actually, after further thought, yeah, I would definitely say flip.

Q21 "The Long Way Around"

Flipping feels right to me here, but this is another close call, and I would be okay with either outcome.

Q22 "The Far Side"

Flip.

Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"

It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

M18 "The gate trap Lemmings."

Flip the right entrance.

[WillLem]

Flipping heck!

[Proxima]

Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"

It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point?

[namida]

Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"

It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point?

"As-is" as in how it currently is, not as in how Amiga was.

My guess is that I used "towards the exit" for the top, while thinking "going towards the wall they're closer to" doesn't make sense for the lower one, but it has to be factored in that I wasn't always very consistent back when I did these conversions.

[Proxima]

While we're waiting to see if anyone else wants to chime in about the trapdoors, there are a couple of other small changes I have been considering, and would like a second opinion on:

* Quest for Kieran: I recently reverted the terrain to its original layout, since it seemed clear that it must have been changed by accident at some point. However, after doing this I noticed that on Amiga and DOS, since builders are asymmetrical and not as good at stretching to the left, it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there? The level has enough surplus skills that the deadly ceiling seems not to close off any solutions that otherwise work, but it is an unintended gameplay difference. I am pretty sure this is the only level where ceiling behaviour needs to be addressed and hasn't been, but feel free to point out if there are any others. (We have addressed it on "No hurry, relax" and "Lemmings' Ark".)

* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

[namida]

* Quest for Kieran: [...] Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

I'm neutral on the fixing in and of itself, but I don't like the proposed method. Move the exit platform a few px to the left instead. However, I'll note that we've been okay with other cases where this makes a difference, in particular "Lemmings In A Situation" where the better left-building allows several challenge solutions that are not possible on DOS. I personally would just leave this.

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?

Neutral on this.

* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

I'd support this, but I wouldn't consider it a very big deal if it didn't happen.

[WillLem]

* Quest for Kieran: ...I noticed that on Amiga and DOS ... it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

I'd say yes, but I concur with namida that moving the exit platform is a better way to fix it. That way, it plays exactly like the original (which seems to be the goal with this particular level).

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?

Yes.

* You need bashers this time: ...still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

30 is a nicer number if you're going to reduce; this is a fun one to spam Bashers through the mesh, let's not deprive players of that pleasure

[Proxima]

Thank you both for the feedback. I feel pretty close to being able to make final decisions on these questions and on the trapdoor flipping, but again, as so few people are contributing at this stage, I feel obliged to leave this discussion open a little longer in case anyone else wants to chime in.

So, I will say that on 1 March I will make final decisions on these questions, no matter what, and then put together a final update to the pack. This one really should be the absolute final version of Redux -- although if a serious error comes to light like the recently fixed terrain error in "Quest for Kieran", I will still update the pack to fix things like that. I will also, of course, continue to maintain the pack as necessary, if any changes are needed because of updates to the NL engine itself.

And, as I've said elsewhere, once Redux is really finished, my next project will be finishing the update to the NL conversions of the original games, so that those are in the same reasonably stable status.

[Proxima]

Okay. As promised, final decisions on the outstanding matters. I'll post a pack update with these changes later today, and this should be the very final version of Lemmings Redux -- however, I am still leaving open the possibility that I may make further changes if something else comes up that really needs fixing, or if later versions of NL require updating the pack for any reason.

In making these final decisions, as always I have considered all feedback, but since there are so few people contributing at this stage I have given a bit more weight than usual to my own gut feelings (and especially the desire for consistency).

Trapdoor direction decisions

Those already marked resolved are unchanged.

"Quest for Kieran": Flip left, for the reasons namida gave above.
"PoP YoR ToP": Flip left.
"The Long Way Around": Flip left. As well as consistency with other levels where the exit is to the right but steel enforces going left first (The Far Side, Be more than just a number), there is the consideration that being able to bomb into the terrain at the start is a consequence of NL having untimed bombers, and wasn't intended to be possible.
"The Far Side": As above, flip for consistency.
"Emmings! (No L"): I will leave this as-is (top trapdoor flipped, bottom trapdoor not). If the top trapdoor were the only one, we would certainly flip it, so the presence of another trapdoor shouldn't change that decision. The lower group typically build to the left from a point to the right of the trapdoor, so leaving this trapdoor unflipped lets them reach that point sooner.
"The gate trap lemmings": Flip left. The solution of saving the right crowd by sending them over the top is still possible and not very different.
"The race against cliches": Flip left. Again namida makes a good point about this level.
"SEGA Four": Flip left. There is still plenty of room to get down the first drop by mining from directly under the trapdoor.
"Creature Discomforts": Flip left. With two trapdoors on opposite sides and an exit in the middle, it feels especially right to have both trapdoors face the exit; and as namida points out, this doesn't really affect the climb-bomb solution as you would need a blocker anyway.
"Hello John! Got a New Lemming?": It does make sense that the trapdoors face opposite ways here, so I will flip the top trapdoor.

In short, my decision for all the "still under consideration" levels is to flip them

Other decisions

"Quest for Kieran": I will leave the terrain as-is. One reason is that I am working on the official NL conversions of the original levels, and it would be weird and confusing for there to be two versions of this level with such a small terrain difference. We have changed some levels in Redux for de-backrouting purposes, notably added steel on "Let's go to the moon", "If at first you don't succeed" and "Everyone's a hard nut", and reduced or changed skillsets on "Tension Sheet, Good Idea", "The Great Lemming Caper", "Let's go camping" and "Fall and no life (Part Two)" -- but those are differences that leap to the eye at once.

There is actually a second solution that would be prevented by moving the exit terrain 2px away: mining at the top of the long slope, having everyone turn around in the miner tunnel before he breaks through, and then building to the exit. This is impossible on the original level because with the original lemming count (50), it's impossible for everyone to turn around before the miner breaks through. But it's an interesting solution and I like that it's possible in Redux -- and I especially don't want it to fail by a single pixel as that is always frustrating.

"Everyone's a hard nut": I will add a bit of ceiling terrain. I have the feeling that if I didn't do this, it would nag at me and I would want to come back and change it later anyway

"You need bashers this time": I will reduce the bashers to 20. This might have a slight effect on the fastest time, since if you set the RR to 99 at the beginning and spam bashers all the way, it takes 21 -- but since the level doesn't require 100%, it's fine to let one lemming turn around, and the fastest time will only be slightly slower. In any case, preserving the fastest times is really not important at all.

[WillLem]

"You need bashers this time": I will reduce the bashers to 20. This might have a slight effect on the fastest time, since if you set the RR to 99 at the beginning and spam bashers all the way, it takes 21 -- but since the level doesn't require 100%, it's fine to let one lemming turn around, and the fastest time will only be slightly slower. In any case, preserving the fastest times is really not important at all.

I think preserving existing time records is important, since time was spent creating them, and this is an arbitrary (and frankly unnecessary) change to the level which makes it impossible to recreate that record.

I stand by my suggestion to make it 30 rather than 20 if the skillset is to be reduced. Or, maybe 25 as a compromise which also preserves the aforementioned time record.

[Proxima]

Let me rephrase: It's by far the least important concern. Anyone making time (or other challenge) records for a pack still in progress risks having their records obsoleted, and they knowingly take that risk. Indeed, one of the main reasons for making the current update is so that I'm happy with all the little decisions that have to be made throughout the pack, so that we can have a version declared final and make records without risk.

Time records will have to be redone anyway for all the levels that have changed, so one more really isn't a big deal, especially such a simple level as "You need bashers". For that matter, we don't even know yet that the current record will be broken, it's just a guess!

Of course it's "arbitrary and unnecessary". So is every single decision we've made since the beginning. Nothing forced us to make a compilation pack; we could have stuck with the original Lemmings pack, unchanged, destructible moss and all. We decided to make changes to improve the playing experience and improve the pack as a whole, and making the levels (from a huge variety of sources) feel a bit more consistent with each other is an important part of that.

[Proxima]

Anyway, the OP has now been updated with a new zip, and as stated, this really should be the final version! I am very happy to have brought the project to a successful conclusion at last.

[chrisleec728]

Okay, finished and updated (again). It turns out I had already figured out at least part of the "Chill out!" talisman, but had to make just a few tweaks. I now have 7 talismans remaining, most of which are new except for the last:

Be more than just a number (the only silver one missing)
Worra load of old blocks
ROCKY ROAD (the only one whose talisman was changed from one to another)
Steel Block Party (I'm especially curious about this one since a) namida praised it so highly and b) similarly to "Chill out" I suspect I may already have part of the solution figured out)
Acrophobia
Temple of Love
I am A.T. (because of course) (I basically already know the solution having seen it in action but it's extremely hard to replicate)

[HansBertram]

Hello, does anyone have a solution replay of Manic 12 (including the talisman)?
I'm already going mad by this level ...

[HansBertram]

I have read several comments about that level and I know that you have to use some technical tricks in order to get the talisman, but I still can't see it.
The replays by Proxima were very helpful for me, but I couldn't find any solution of Manic 12. Can somebody help me, please?