Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[Proxima]

Yes, I strongly recommend you update to 12.10 as it has so many quality-of-life and aesthetic improvements!

In 12.10, talisman requirements are no longer written on the preview screen. Instead, the preview screen has talisman icons that can be clicked to display the requirements in a pop-up window. Also, it automatically detects certain special cases and will, for example, display "Save 20/20 using only builders" rather than "...using 0 climbers, 0 floaters, 0 bombers...."

[chrisleec728]

Thanks, looks awesome! I think I noticed a problem though: when I downloaded the latest update I think it still downloaded an earlier version of Redux with it. After some experimentation I noticed that when I downloaded Redux manually it listed 44 talismans, but when I did it the automatic way it only listed 36. If I'm reading through the thread correctly I believe 44 is what you ended up with, correct?

[Proxima]

Yes, it sounds like the automatic download hasn't been updated with the latest version yet.

[EDIT: Now it has! ]

[Proxima]

Well, I had hoped that the January 19 update would be the final version of Lemmings Redux, but it was not to be.

Firstly, I've discovered that the level "Quest for Kieran" contained serious terrain errors. I've attached a fixed version to this post, and will be including it in the next update. Since another update is required, I felt I should take another look round to see if there is anything else remaining that should be fixed or improved. [EDIT: Removed attachment; the fixed level is now in the main Redux zip.]

As WillLem and I have been doing the "Don't turn around" challenge, we've noticed that Redux is very inconsistent in terms of when trapdoors have been set to left-facing. I would like to make these consistent, and my suggestion is doing this by a set of rules:

* If the exit is to the right of the trapdoor, it should remain right-facing, except maybe in special cases like "And then there were four" where the lemmings are forced to start by going away from the exit.
* If the exit is to the left of the trapdoor and it requires the use of skills to turn around the lemmings, it should remain right-facing. Obvious examples: Tailor-made for blockers; Turn around, young lemmings; Upside-down world.
* If the exit is to the left of the trapdoor and it doesn't require any skills to turn around the lemmings, there may still be some special cases where it's better for the trapdoor to be right-facing (e.g. The Boiler Room, where the right-facing trapdoor affords more space for constructing a holding area), but in general, these should become left-facing.

A couple of examples of levels where Redux currently has a right-facing trapdoor and I feel it should become left-facing: Snuggle up to a lemming; Haunted botanical garden (right trapdoor); Don't leave any lemmings.

Alternatively, we could set all trapdoors (back) to right-facing. Whichever we do, I'd like to do it consistently throughout the pack.

What are other people's feelings on this?

[namida]

Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.

[Dullstar]

For the purposes of this post, I when I say flipped/unflipped, it's relative to the original versions of the levels, i.e. where all entrances are right facing.

I'd simplify the rule down to this:

If lemmings entering the level turn around on their own such that a flipped entrance just gets them where they'd end up going faster, they should be flipped (generally this will flip towards the exit, but this is one rule that also fits cases like "And then there were four" without making such levels a special exception).

If an action is required to turn the lemmings around, it should be considered part of the puzzle and thus should remain unflipped.

For levels that would become flipped under the previous rules, but may benefit from remaining unflipped (e.g. the Boiler Room example given by Proxima): Make a list of such levels, then use that to make decisions about how it should be handled. Ideally we'd take the same action on all of these levels, but at the very least we should break it down into subcategories of different cases and then handle each subcategory the same, instead of making decisions about individual levels one-by-one.

[Minim]

Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.

Still firmly in agreement with this one. Here was what I wrote a while ago whilst we were sorting out what levels should be included.

..."Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.

[Minim]

Hi. I have a problem with the update regarding the graphic sets for special levels.

For all the original special levels, all the objects are missing. I tried the updater but that hasn't worked either. Therefore I can't play "A Beast of a Level", "Menacing", "What an Awesome level" and "A BeastII of a level" The Pieces affected are:
* window_beastii
* exit_beastii
* window_beast
* exit_beast
* window_menacing
* exit_menacing
* window_awesome
* exit_awesome

I'm currently in the middle of a challenge until I encountered this problem. Please either add these objects in, or revert back to the original so I can resume my challenge. Thanks.

[Proxima]

The objects are in the "special" style, which comes with NL.

[EDIT: It turns out these objects were not included in the "special" style by default and had gotten into my local copy of the style somehow. However, I've checked with namida and they are included with the "special" style from 12.11 onwards, so there's no problem any more with Redux using them.]

[Minim]

Thanks! The levels are working again.

[Proxima]

I have updated the Redux zip in the opening post:

* Gentle 27 "Quest for Kieran" fixes some terrain errors that had gone unnoticed for a long time.
* The zip no longer includes the "smstitle" music for Lunatic 16 "SEGA Four", since this is now included by default in the NL installation.

I need to make a final decision about the flipped hatches (mentioned a few posts up). I'll get onto this as quickly as I can; I am rather busy with another NeoLemmix project at the moment, which I'm hoping to get ready in time for the anniversary on 14 February.

[Proxima]

I'd like to get moving on the flipped hatches decisions, since this is almost the very last thing left to decide. Dullstar's rule of thumb is a good starting-point, so I had a look through the pack to see which levels fall under it. Unfortunately it looks like there are more than I thought! Some of these are very, very clear cases where some other consideration means we should keep the hatches right-facing, but as usual, I want to make decisions on the basis of consensus and not just my own feeling, so they are on my list anyway.

The full list...

G8 "Snuggle up to a lemming" -- Unproblematic to flip left.
G15 "Darkness of the royal family" -- Unproblematic to flip left.
G21 "Lemmings in the attic" -- The player may want to start the lemmings walking either left or right, and the exit is to the right, so keep this one unflipped.
G27 "Quest for Kieran" -- Currently flipped. Unflipping it would allow delaying the crowd by mining on the starting platform instead of the large mound, which was possible on the original, so maybe flip back for that reason?
G29 "Konnichiwa Lemming-san" -- Unproblematic to flip left.
G31 "Doomsday" -- Exit is to the right; the "H" does turn the lemmings left, but the player may wish to bash right for a faster solution, so keep unflipped.

Q1 "PoP YoR ToP" (right two trapdoors) -- Unproblematic?
Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- Feels weird to flip when the trapdoor is so close to the terrain just to its left. What does anyone else think?
Q8 "A Spot of Bother" -- Mentioning this just in case anyone wonders about it. The lemmings actually land on the steel, so flipping the hatch would change the level in a way unacceptable by Dullstar's rule.
Q9 "Exodus!" -- The solution involves climbing out to the left, but flipping the trapdoor would be a hint towards the solution that wasn't present on the original level, so leave?
Q11 "DON'T PANIC" -- Some solutions involve the lemmings heading left, but some involve bashing or bombing to the right at the start, so leave unflipped.
Q12 "Over the wall" -- Unproblematic. Even though the exit is right of the trapdoor, the steel forces you to go left first.
Q13 "Haunted botanical garden" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- same as Q9, flipping the trapdoor would be a hint, so leave.
Q19 "Tunnel vision" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
Q21 "The Long Way Around" -- Seems unproblematic, but maybe some players would want to bash towards the steel to change separation of the lemmings?
Q22 "The Far Side" -- Unproblematic.
Q23 "Emmings! (No L)" (maybe both trapdoors) -- Currently has the lower trapdoor unflipped, possibly because it's close to the left terrain as in Q6.
Q24 "Lunch time" -- Here, even though turning the lemmings around requires a skill (blocker), this skill must be used here regardless of whether the trapdoor is flipped or not, so flip it even though it doesn't strictly follow Dullstar's rule?
Q32 "And then there were four" (left trapdoors) -- Unproblematic.

Z4 "LEMTRIS" -- Unproblematic.
Z6 "Compression Method 1" (all trapdoors) -- Leave unflipped because flipping would be a hint?
Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" (right trapdoor) -- Leave unflipped because the player may want to bash/mine rightwards.
Z13 "Don't leave any Lemmings" -- Already discussed. Consensus seems to be to leave because the player may want to bomb down to the lower-right compartment.
Z15 "With a little help from my Lem" (top trapdoor) -- Some solutions have the top lemming act leftwards first. Leave this unflipped because not all solutions do that / it may be a hint.
Z20 "Dolly Dimple" (both trapdoors) -- Seems unproblematic to flip both. The current level has just the right trapdoor flipped, which feels weird.

M1 "Let's get together" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
M5 "Synchronised Lemming" (left trapdoors) -- Unproblematic.
M18 "The gate trap Lemmings." (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
M24 "The race against cliches" -- A weird case as the intended solution involves lemmings going both ways. Exit is on the far left. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.
M26 "Triple Trouble" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.

L2 "The Boiler Room" -- Already discussed; leave unflipped to enable builder-wall solutions.
L7 "Down, along, up, in that order" -- Unproblematic.
L8 "Lemming about town" -- Exit is on the right but you need to climb left. Leave?
L10 "Be more than just a number" -- Seems unproblematic; steel makes it obvious you need to go left first.
L12 "Water processing plant" -- Leave as flipping the trapdoor would drastically change the mini-puzzle of keeping the crowd safe.
L16 "SEGA Four" -- Unproblematic.
L17 "Creature Discomforts" (right trapdoor) -- Some solutions involve the right-side lemmings climbing the far right wall. Leave for that reason?
L20 "No hurry, relax." -- Flipping the trapdoor would change the relative efficiency of the left and right side solutions, one of which is intentionally a red herring that doesn't quite make it. I say leave this one.
L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (right trapdoor) -- Flipping the right trapdoor would hint that a climber from this trapdoor should be sent left (I think it's actually possible to use a climber from either trapdoor?). Leave, especially as the right trapdoor's exit is to the right.
L27 "Let's go camping" -- Just kidding.

I would be really grateful if anyone would take the time to go through the above list and give second opinions, even on the ones I have marked "unproblematic" -- I am not infallible!

[Minim]

OK, submitted my responses. All other levels I'm in agreement with, but Manic 18 is the only unproblematic one that I disagree with, as I will explain below.

Spoiler

G27: Flip to the right.
Q1: I'm not too bothered about this one, so leave as is.
Q6: Leave this one right facing. Like Q8 The lemming actually lands on the top part of the pipe first. Making this one left-facing would ignore the required holding area.
Q21: Leave unflipped. Lems can bomb twice into the steel to create a holding area.
Q22: Currently left facing, but I think because of the level's name "The Far Side" this was intended to be right facing. I know it doesn't technically add anything to the solution, but making it right facing brings the humiliation of the lemmings being so close to the exit if it weren't for that steel wall.
Q23: Leave both trapdoors unflipped.
Q24: Keep this one left facing. There's no challenge to turning round the lemmings here.
Q9, Z6, L8 and L17: Leave unflipped.
Z20: Flip both to the left.
M18: Disagree with this one (i.e. keep to the right). My fastest time solution involves the right side building upwards to the crowded pit where the left lemmings share. While executing is pretty much the same difficulty, it's quicker and easier to manage if the right entrance is facing right.
M24: I looked up the lemmings encyclopedia to find the actual intended solution, and at least it works left facing. Also, as the lems are facing closer to the wall, the journey between the two starting points is shorter, so players can choose to either climb this wall or go to the other one; so I'd leave as it is. The level is still a bit faulty in its current state, but has otherwise been unchanged apart from the left-facing entrance.

[namida]

Here's my feedback on the other. Assume any I don't mention here are either "I agree with you" or "No preference", let me know if there's any you'd like to know which of these it was. Note that the ones I comment on might not be "I disagree" but just "I have something to add to the reasoning".

G27 "Quest for Kieran" -- Currently flipped. Unflipping it would allow delaying the crowd by mining on the starting platform instead of the large mound, which was possible on the original, so maybe flip back for that reason?

This is a pretty trivial difference from doing it on the mound, and I think overall the level feels nicer with them going left.

Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- Feels weird to flip when the trapdoor is so close to the terrain just to its left. What does anyone else think?

Do not flip. If flipped, they will not be contained, as they land just on the barrier of the holding area. (Much like what you mention for Q8.)

Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- same as Q9, flipping the trapdoor would be a hint, so leave.

Not to mention that there are solutions that send a climber to the right first.

Z6 "Compression Method 1" (all trapdoors) -- Leave unflipped because flipping would be a hint?

Disagree with reasoning, but ultimately agree with decision. It is obvious you have to go left here - there is a fatal fall, off steel (can't reduce the fall) with no floaters or builders (can't survive / avoid it), to the right. However, going right gives options relating to using the first trapdoor to free the second (or to free all the others in some cases), and from there I think for this level it would look weird to not have all four facing the same way.

Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" (right trapdoor) -- Leave unflipped because the player may want to bash/mine rightwards.

Also because unflipped has them actually going towards the exit.

M24 "The race against cliches" -- A weird case as the intended solution involves lemmings going both ways. Exit is on the far left. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.

The exit is to the left, and most lemmings go left (though not necesserially right away). I get the feeling that, if DOS mechanics were "always spawn facing left" instead, we'd think that changing it to right-facing is a hint on this one. I think all things considered, left remains the right direction to spawn here, though I'll definitely agree that it's a closer call than most.

L8 "Lemming about town" -- Exit is on the right but you need to climb left. Leave?

Agree, leave unflipped.

L16 "SEGA Four" -- Unproblematic.

I have a slight feeling that this one should remain unflipped, but can't quite put my finger on why.

L17 "Creature Discomforts" (right trapdoor) -- Some solutions involve the right-side lemmings climbing the far right wall. Leave for that reason?

As far as I can tell, you'd usually need to block near the entrance anyway, as you don't send all of them up right away? If so, I see no problem with flipping it.

L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (right trapdoor) -- Flipping the right trapdoor would hint that a climber from this trapdoor should be sent left (I think it's actually possible to use a climber from either trapdoor?). Leave, especially as the right trapdoor's exit is to the right.

While either way around makes sense, I kind of feel that the two entrances on this level should have opposite directions to each other. That is - either both go towards the direction they send a climber, or both go towards their exit.

[Proxima]

Thank you both for the quick feedback. (WillLem also gave feedback via discord.) It seems we're in agreement about most levels, so I'm happy to sign off on those, and that leaves a much shorter list still under consideration for anyone else who wants to chime in. If no-one else does, I'll come back to this and make final decisions within a week or so.

Resolved

G8 "Snuggle up to a Lemming" -- flip left.
G15 "Darkness of the royal family" -- flip left.
G21 "Lemmings in the attic" -- leave right.
G29 "Konnichiwa Lemming-san" -- flip left.
G31 "Doomsday" -- leave right.

Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- leave right.
Q8 "A Spot of Bother" -- leave right.
Q9 "Exodus!" -- leave right.
Q11 "DON'T PANIC" -- leave right.
Q12 "Over the wall" -- flip left.
Q13 "Haunted botanical garden" -- flip left.
Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- leave right.
Q19 "Tunnel vision" -- flip left.
Q24 "Lunch time" -- flip left.
Q32 "And then there were four" -- flip left.

Z4 "LEMTRIS" -- flip left.
Z6 "Compression Method 1" -- keep right.
Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" -- keep right.
Z13 "Don't leave any Lemmings" -- keep right.
Z15 "With a little help from my Lem" -- keep right.
Z20 "Dolly Dimple" -- flip left.

M1 "Let's get together" -- flip left.
M5 "Synchronised Lemming" -- flip left.
M26 "Triple Trouble" -- flip left.

L2 "The Boiler Room" -- leave right.
L7 "Down, along, up, in that order" -- flip left.
L8 "Lemming about town" -- leave right.
L10 "Be more than just a number" -- flip left.
L12 "Water processing plant" -- leave right.
L20 "No hurry, relax." -- leave right.

Still under consideration

G27 "Quest for Kieran"
Q1 "PoP YoR ToP" [inclined to flip, since Minim gave "not too bothered" as a reason for not flipping ]
Q21 "The Long Way Around"
Q22 "The Far Side" [inclined to flip, since we were unanimous about "Be more than just a number", which has a very similar set-up]
Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"
M18 "The gate trap Lemmings."
M24 "The race against cliches"
L16 "SEGA Four"
L17 "Creature Discomforts"
L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?"

Namida, could you say something more about the "still under consideration" ones you didn't mention? These are Q1, Q21, Q22, Q23 and M18.