Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[WillLem]

Just putting this forward one last time before Redux gets finalised: 30 levels per rank would be a much tidier number.

There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...

At the moment, Redux comes across as some-parts "compilation pack" and some-parts "NeoLemmix versions of the levels". If it were to stick exclusively to the latter, and shed any notions of it being a "best of" compilation, then it could probably be neatened up to fewer levels per rank, or even fewer ranks in total, and would ultimately be a much better offering for it.

I would encourage you to take another look at which of these levels truly meet the NeoLemmix Standard. And it needn't even be that difficult; the original versions of these levels are always going to be available, after all.

[namida]

There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...

There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)". The only one of these I would advocate removing is Just A Minute (Part 2), and I probably wouldn't object too much to Come On Over To My Place being removed either (but would vote against removing it - I just wouldn't consider it a huge loss). And to be clear, repeat levels are not considered "un-NeoLemmix-y" - as long as the repeat, in and of itself, wouldn't be considered so, being a repeat doesn't change anything.

Redux should be thought of as somewhere between a remaster and a remake, in a sense, rather than directly as "compilation" or "NeoLemmix versions". And I don't personally feel that any of the remaining levels are hugely out of place as part of this.

[Proxima]

There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)".

From my memory, it's just those plus "Fall and no life" 1 and 2 (which, like "Just a Minute", has a small terrain difference).

"Just a Minute" and "Fall and no life" are pairs where both levels are puzzles; "It's lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "No added colours or lemmings" are repeats of the skill tutorial levels. So the only cases where we kept a puzzle level and its 20-of-all repeat are "You live and Lem" / "The Steel Mines of Kessel" and "Let's be careful out there" / "Come on over to my place". And of those, "You live and Lem" has a special reason for inclusion: it's the level that would introduce a new player to triggered traps.

When we refer to Redux as a "best-of", that shouldn't be taken too literally. We don't believe these are the very best 160 levels from the original games. The pack aims to be a way for new players to experience the original levels, and some concessions have to be made to that, starting with the skill tutorial levels, and including some "filler" 20-of-all levels to help the new player get accustomed to the game.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest. All the included levels meet NL standards: they are fair, with no hidden objects or misleading features; time limits are only included where necessary; and so on. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?

[WillLem]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest... I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?

I guess I mean that they're levels which are puzzle-focused rather than execution-focused, plus the other things that you listed.

If you're happy that every single level needs to be in the pack, then great! I just wondered whether some levels could possibly be cut in order to tighten up the group numbers a bit. If not, then - of course, leave it as-is.

[Proxima]

Most of Gentle isn't so much puzzle- focused as it is focused on introducing a variety of level styles and obstacles so that new players can acquire the tools they need to solve puzzles later in the pack. As I've pointed out elsewhere, this is the key difference between the Fun levels, which do this well, albeit not perfectly, and the Tame levels, which do it badly.

In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:

Spoiler

1-7: Each skill in turn
8: Steel; choosing between skills when all are available
9: Having a wider area for lemmings to roam around in
10: Forging a downward path and avoiding splat falls
11: One-way wall
12: Quick actions required at the start; steel on the main path
13: Mesh and stars terrain; building over wider gaps
14: Choice between multiple exits
15: Very narrow gaps in terrain; trap is present but off main path
16: Special graphics
17: Trap on main path
18: Only one lemming; limited skills
19: Staircase terrain and high save requirement
20: Dealing with RR 99
21: Making a long bridge and avoiding splats from the bridge
22: Getting down a splat drop without terrain to dig through
23: Isolating a worker in a right-to-left level
24: Fire objects; only one lemming is allowed to die
25: Dealing with absence of a useful skill (bashers)
26: Switching between building and bashing
27: Isolating a worker without blockers
28: Splat trapdoor. (This level is the closest to being filler; splat trapdoors could wait until they are introduced with a real puzzle, in "POOR WEE CREATURES".)
29: Thinking ahead when placing skills
30: A specific trick using bombers to turn the crowd
31: Bombing through one-way walls or taking the long way around. (This would be the next cut if we had to cut two levels.)
32: Giving the worker as much time as possible, when the crowd cannot be completely contained.

In short, although it's easy to spot the two levels that are most filler-ish ("Catch more floaters" and "Doomsday"), I think every level in Gentle earns its place -- in contrast to the original Fun rank, which has some pure filler like "Take good care of my lemmings" and "Nightmare on Lem Street".

And, of course, going down to 30 per rank would require cutting eight puzzle levels from the later ranks. It's not impossible, but it would require more voting -- I would expect very low participation because the community regards Redux as finished and isn't much interested in tweaks any more -- and we would be overturning previous community consensus, which I'm really not comfortable with doing with a low-participation vote.

So, I won't take any action on this as things stand, but if more people chime in to agree with the idea of reducing the number of levels then we could consider it.

[WillLem]

In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:

Spoiler

1-7: Each skill in turn
8: Steel; choosing between skills when all are available
9: Having a wider area for lemmings to roam around in
10: Forging a downward path and avoiding splat falls
11: One-way wall
12: Quick actions required at the start; steel on the main path
13: Mesh and stars terrain; building over wider gaps
14: Choice between multiple exits
15: Very narrow gaps in terrain; trap is present but off main path
16: Special graphics
17: Trap on main path
18: Only one lemming; limited skills
19: Staircase terrain and high save requirement
20: Dealing with RR 99
21: Making a long bridge and avoiding splats from the bridge
22: Getting down a splat drop without terrain to dig through
23: Isolating a worker in a right-to-left level
24: Fire objects; only one lemming is allowed to die
25: Dealing with absence of a useful skill (bashers)
26: Switching between building and bashing
27: Isolating a worker without blockers
28: Splat trapdoor. (This level is the closest to being filler; splat trapdoors could wait until they are introduced with a real puzzle, in "POOR WEE CREATURES".)
29: Thinking ahead when placing skills
30: A specific trick using bombers to turn the crowd
31: Bombing through one-way walls or taking the long way around. (This would be the next cut if we had to cut two levels.)
32: Giving the worker as much time as possible, when the crowd cannot be completely contained.

Thanks for taking the time to create this list, it's interesting to see why each level was specifically chosen.

[chrisleec728]

Hey, how are the release plans coming along? Everything okay?

[Minim]

Well, we've just had the November update which included the final selection of levels. I think the talisman discussion is pretty much finalised, although the download on this post could clash with what talismans Proxima wants to include let alone fix any remaining bugs. I'm not sure if he's seen that post or not.

Other than that, everything seems fine. Thanks for asking.

[chrisleec728]

Ok cool. I just thought he said it would be released around Christmas so I was mildly concerned.

[Minim]

Just saw these new posts today.

Well, my "Christmas Period" is over. So I had included the remaining talismans into the game, introduced in the attachment below. BTW this is my first experience of adding Talismans to levels, so well done me. Here are my first two thoughts, both being rather complex.

As the talismans in Redux are unnamed, it's very hard to check whether the talisman is actually included or not once you put it in into the level. Maybe the editor could produce an automated title like "Talisman 1" or for a more specific requirement: "Save Requirement: 30" or something similar to these.

For "save max" talismans, there is currently no specified limit on Lemmings saved. (I think it goes up to 200) The limit should match the total number of lemmings available (And to expand on this, Normal & Neutral Lemmings) At the moment I had to find the "Globals" tab to check.

Still, I hope all the talismans are added in correctly for the final total of 8/20/16. If not, I've collaborated several different posts into a little document hidden in spoiler tags. It seems to bring the total number to 46 however with a split of 9/20/17. That means one gold and one bronze would have to go for a round number. I can't remember which ones needed deleting though, unless I made a mistake somewhere...

Document

Things to do on Redux before the end...

I haven't had enough feedback to decide for certain which talismans to include and which not, even when taking my own feelings into account as well. One possibility would be to use nice, round numbers as a decider -- and I absolutely would do that if there were just one talisman suggestion I was still unsure about -- but it doesn't feel right to do that when there are three or four.

So, another poll, but a very simple one. Eight of the suggested new talismans are definitely accepted (see the post above), putting the numbers at 8/20/14. We will go with one of the following three options, and I've put up a poll to decide between them. I am not expecting a large turnout, so I may well call it early if one option is ahead after the first few votes.

Feel free to vote on any basis, whether you like one set of numbers better than the other, or if there's a particular talisman in one of the options that you especially like or dislike.



I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.

Gentle 32: Going Their Separate Ways (0 climbers) - Almost certainly bronze.
Zany 9: No justice for the hero (Save 100%) - Namida suggests silver, which sounds about right.
Zany 28: Worra load of old blocks! (0 Diggers) - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Zany 31: ROCKY ROAD (2 builders) - Definitely gold. It's harder than the existing "save 100%" talisman, which is already gold.
Manic 32: Temple of Love (Save 29/30) - Minim suggests gold, namida silver. Personally I think it could be gold.
Manic 6: Chill Out! (0 climbers) - Silver seems right for this.
Manic 12: Steel Block Party (0 builders) - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Manic 25: Acrophobia (0 diggers) - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Lunatic 10: Be more than just a number (Save 100%) - Silver seems right for this.
Lunatic 11: Fix the road, quick (Save 100% with 10 builders) - Silver seems right for this.

Option A: Include talismans for Manic 6: Chill out! as silver and Zany 28: Worra load of old blocks as gold for totals of 8/20/16.

Also included is a fix with the water for "Have a nice day", adding three long water objects to reduce the file's size but more importantly, the noticeable gap between the water and the wall is sealed properly. The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.

[Proxima]

The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.

It's not directly to do with high-res. With the screen start set to X=160 as it was, the initial view will only stretch to the left edge if your window is at least (320 x zoom level) wide.

I don't know what your zoom level and window size is, but not all high-res users will have this issue, whereas some low-res users will.

[Minim]

Mine is currently 3x zoom on windowed mode.

Also, I don't really have any issues, the changes were to find some kind of middle ground no matter if people use high or low res. I don't understand why some low-res users could potentially see problems with it?

[Proxima]

Users have different screen sizes. Users of windowed mode can give the window any size they want.

The screen start positions are configured to be the best possible if the window size (adjusted for zoom level) is 320 x 200, but the user's actual window size could be literally anything. And if you are using 3x zoom and you switch to high-res without changing your window size, then of course it's going to look wonky -- 3 is odd, so NL will be forced to jump to a zoom size that isn't ideal for your chosen window size. We have to expect that users who want to use high-res mode will choose a window size that works for that.

[Proxima]

Okay, I've finally done this I've gone through the pack to add the new talismans and make final adjustments. If I didn't miss anything that needs doing, this could be the final update to this pack. (The new pack is attached to the opening post of the topic.)

Changelog

* Special graphics levels -- These now have the correct trapdoors and exits, with colouring specific to each level.
* I've set trapdoors and exits to no-overwrite where I spotted ones that weren't (mainly in levels from PSP and Budget Amiga). I think other levels already have these set correctly, but I haven't checked every single one.

Gentle

"Darkness of the royal family" -- Adjusted rope trap's position to account for revised trigger area.
"Where do you see Lemmings?" -- Adjusted fire pit positions for consistency / aesthetics.
"Going Their Separate Ways" -- Replaced old version (which was remade by hand) with a level file directly ripped from Macintosh Lemmings.

Quirky

"Go for it" -- Adjusted fire pit.
"Exodus" -- Adjusted rope traps.
"No choice but to follow them" -- Adjusted zapper traps.

Zany

"Compression Method 1" -- Save requirement is 20/40.
"Lemming Lament" -- Fixed screen start position.
"Have a nice day" -- Fixed 1-pixel gap between water and steel.

Manic

"Upside-down World" -- Changed one terrain piece to one-way compatible so the one-way area covers the expected area.
"The gate trap Lemmings." -- Adjusted size of one-way areas to match terrain.
"Electric circuit" -- Adjusted zapper traps.
"POOR WEE CREATURES" -- Adjusted zapper trap.
"Where Lemmings Dare" -- Fixed screen start position.

Lunatic

"Private room available" -- Adjusted zapper trap.
"The Great Lemming Caper" -- Adjusted rope trap.
"Everyone's a hard nut" -- Adjusted zapper traps.

[chrisleec728]

Awesome. Sorry if I made anyone feel pressured by my last post (especially Proxima), by the way; there was really no rush.

Anyway, my biggest problem now is that some of the talisman descriptions on my version are cut off due to being overly long. Do I have to update NeoLemmix to fix this?