Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[namida]

If going for a low-builders talisman on The Boiler Room, I would set it at 7 rather than 6. Cutting out that extra builder is mostly just a matter of "do everything pixel-precise". The overall approach doesn't change. "Save 49" implies no blockers anyway; because you cannot solve it without at least one bomber, and have no other way to free blockers, so I'd think a "no blockers" talisman borders on pointless here.

So - I would say either "Save 49" as a Bronze, or "7 builders" as either Silver or Gold, I'm on the fence as to which. Leaning a bit more towards Silver.

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

For The Boiler Room, 12 skills (a definite gold) could also be an option.

[namida]

* No justice for the hero - Save 100%

I got this one now. Yes, this is worthy of being a talisman. Silver, I'd say.

* SNOW JOKE - 1 basher

Only if there's no other similar talisman already. Bronze.

* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers

From memory, this was really finnicky, I'm not sure if it's the best idea?

* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)

I'd think it's a bit weird to have exactly one level with multiple talismans, unless it's special in some other way (such as being the final level). However, on a "one or the other" basis, I'd say go with 2 builders, and it's not even close - 100% is not very difficult at all (certianly not worthy of gold!); on the other hand, 2 builders would be a great gold talisman.

* Steel Block Party - No builders

This is absolutely brilliant! Yes, definitely, and I'd say this is worthy of gold.

* Be more than just a number - Save 100%

Neutral on this one. Bronze.

For next time

* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
* SEGA Four - No climbers
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30
* Save Me - Save 45/50

[namida]

* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders

Sure. Silver.

* SEGA Four - No climbers

No climbers is kind of a frustrating timing one. I suggest no diggers as a more interesting possibility - I could see it going either way between Silver and Gold. You could further make this "no diggers, save 19", I'm not sure how much value the save 19 adds here.

* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers

No, too fiddly.

* Temple of Love - Save 29/30

Sure. Silver.

* Save Me - Save 45/50

Sure. Bronze or maybe Silver.

[Proxima]

So, the voting was rather inconclusive. Only four people voted, which isn't too surprising -- Redux polls haven't been getting much attention, and a lot of people aren't all that interested in talismans. There was one vote for 36, one for 40-48, one for 50 and one for 50+. So all I can really glean from that is that overall, increasing the number is favoured, but no specific number is favoured. So I'll look through the recent feedback, make decisions, and see what we end up with.

Firstly, based on feedback and having another look at the levels myself, I am withdrawing these from consideration:

* SNOW JOKE, 1 basher: This is done by bashing under the entire level and building up to the exit from the right. It's interesting that this is possible in NL, but doesn't feel talisman-worthy; and it would be impossible on the original level due to the time limit.
* SEGA Four, no climbers: Neither commenter liked this one very much.
* With a twist of lemming, please, no climbers: Namida found this "too fiddly" and Minim wasn't a fan either.

These were liked by both commenters and are definitely going in:

* No justice for the hero, save 100%
* ROCKY ROAD, 2 builders (maybe as a replacement for the current talisman)
* Steel Block Party, no builders

That means the minimum we can now have is 37 (if the PoP YoR ToP talisman and ROCKY ROAD's existing talisman are dropped), while the maximum is 47, if we keep both those and all the ones still under discussion. (We could, of course, include others not on the current list, but since no-one has suggested any and the discussion isn't attracting much interest, I would like to get it wrapped up as soon as possible.)

I need to check ROCKY ROAD, since namida (in discord) implied that it's possible to save 100% with only 2 builders, which seems improbable.

I'll have a play through all the talismans still under discussion and make a final decision, taking feedback into account, in the next week or two, so this is the last chance for anyone else to chime in with their opinions.

[namida]

I need to check ROCKY ROAD, since namida (in discord) implied that it's possible to save 100% with only 2 builders, which seems improbable.

No, sorry, I might have not been clear - the existing talisman, for 100%, is not worthy of gold, and personally I don't think worthy of a talisman at all. On the other hand, 2 builders (with no further requirements) is worthy of being a gold talisman.

[Proxima]

Okay, time to try to wrap this up. I'll go through the suggested talismans one by one and post thoughts, taking feedback into account.

* Chill out! - No climbers. This invites very fiddly solutions (see Minim's replay). Namida said he would vote for it, unless we already have a talisman using the same trick (turning lemmings with bashers and diggers only). I think that Across the Gap - 1 builder, while not exactly the same, is pretty closely related. Still, it's interesting that no-climber is possible and it's different enough from the normal solution, so I'm indecisive on this one, which is a great start Maybe leave this until we have a clearer idea of the numbers.

* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers. Both commenters liked the no diggers talisman, so we'll go with that one.

* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners. Minim preferred no miners, but not for a great reason; namida found them both interesting. I solved no bashers myself during SYCLW; I had another go at it just now and found it pretty easy. Then I tried no miners, and it's also pretty easy. That isn't a bad thing -- we need some bronze talismans -- but it does make it hard to decide between the two options! (Unlike "Going Their Separate Ways" below, we can't combine the two possibilities by having a minimum total skills talisman. Both no bashers and no miners use 10 skills (all 5 builders and 5 of the other destructive skill) while the minimum skills is 6 (a nice balanced 2 of each).

* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills. As Minim said, this is fairly open as it includes both the no-climbers and the no-floaters solution, so it would be bronze. But I like the idea of that, especially as we don't have any other "max N skills" talismans at the moment. So I'm inclined to include this one.

* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers. Namida points out that this is very fiddly, but Minim likes it. Undecided for now.

* Be more than just a number - Save 100%. I've always liked this solution and I think it's one we should keep. (Minim likes it; namida is neutral.)

* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders. This level gives a lot of leeway, so it's definitely a strong candidate for a 100% talisman, whether or not we add the builders requirement. Minim calls it "a true classic".

* Temple of Love - Save 29. Minim says this is "a great challenge", namida likes it, and it's always been one of my favourite max-saves challenges ever since I first worked it out, so this is definitely going in.

* Save Me - Save 45. This isn't really all that much harder than solving the level; it's not the maximum possible (47 on NL, achieved by a very different method), and doesn't enforce any particular linchpin. It's okay but I'm not wild about it, though Minim and namida both like it.

In summary, after a first look over all the suggested talismans, the following ones are definitely accepted: No justice for the hero, ROCKY ROAD, Steel Block Party, Acrophobia, Going Their Separate Ways, Be more than just a number, Fix the road, quick, Temple of Love.

That's 8 new talismans, which puts us on 42 (if we drop PoP YoR ToP and ROCKY ROAD's "save 100%"). It's a nice number, for reasons completely unrelated to Lemmings but I don't want to just stop there without giving more consideration to the ones I'm still undecided about. We might have to have another poll

Let's see whether considering the bronze/silver/gold numbers helps. Excluding the two we're considering dropping, the existing numbers are 7/16/11. Of the new ones:

No justice for the hero - Namida suggests silver, which sounds about right.
ROCKY ROAD (2 builders) - Definitely gold. It's harder than the existing "save 100%" talisman.
Steel Block Party - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Acrophobia - Most likely silver?
Going Their Separate Ways - Almost certainly bronze.
Be more than just a number - Minim suggests gold and namida suggests bronze Maybe we should split the difference?
Fix the road, quick - Silver seems right for this.
Temple of Love - Minim suggests gold, namida silver. Personally I think it could be gold.

So, that would put us at 8/20/14.

As for where the undecided ones would go... Chill out! could be silver or gold; Lemmy in the cold, cold ground is definitely bronze (whichever of the two we choose); Worra load of old blocks most likely gold; Save Me could be bronze or silver.

Okay, I think I see what to do, but this is a long post already so I'll put it in another post.

[Proxima]

Decision time!

I haven't had enough feedback to decide for certain which talismans to include and which not, even when taking my own feelings into account as well. One possibility would be to use nice, round numbers as a decider -- and I absolutely would do that if there were just one talisman suggestion I was still unsure about -- but it doesn't feel right to do that when there are three or four.

So, another poll, but a very simple one. Eight of the suggested new talismans are definitely accepted (see the post above), putting the numbers at 8/20/14. We will go with one of the following three options, and I've put up a poll to decide between them. I am not expecting a large turnout, so I may well call it early if one option is ahead after the first few votes.

Feel free to vote on any basis, whether you like one set of numbers better than the other, or if there's a particular talisman in one of the options that you especially like or dislike.

Option A: Include talismans for Chill out! and Worra load of old blocks, both as gold, for totals of 8/20/16.

Option B: Include talismans for Lemmy in the cold, cold ground and Save Me as bronze, and one of the two golds, for 10/20/15. (We would have to have further votes for which talisman for Lemmy and which gold; I would give at most one week for each vote.)

Option C: Reject all four, sticking with 8/20/14.

[namida]

My comments; mostly just my input on colors.

No Justice For The Hero (100%) - Silver, as mentioned earlier.
Rocky Road (2 builders) - I stand by what I said earlier, definite gold.
Steel Block Party (no builders) - Gold for sure.
Acrophobia (no digger) - I'd lean towards gold for this one, but it's very close.
Going Their Separate Ways (max 20 skills) - I would note that there are solutions that use some (but not all) of both permanent skills, that are easier than the no-climbers or no-floaters solutions themself. However, if the goal here is an easy talisman, max 20 skills + bronze sounds good to me.
Be More Than Just A Number (save 100%) - I do stand by that I think bronze, but it's towards the upper end of bronze so I could accept silver. Indeed it is a hard solution; it's just that it's not much harder than solving the level in the first place.
Fix The Road, Quick (100% 10 builders) - Silver, as stated earlier.
Temple of Love (save 29) - I still think silver, but gold could work.

Chill Out (no climber) - I really can't see this one as being worthy of gold. It's certianly silver-worthy, no doubt about that, but yeah, I don't think it makes the cut for gold.
Lemmy In The Cold Cold Ground () - Upon trying these again (rather than just from memory), no bashers is a tad fiddly, could go either way between bronze or silver but I'd lean more towards bronze. No miners is a lot cleaner, I'd say bronze in and of itself, and it would be my preference of the two. But a third possibility here that I discovered now: "No miners + max 2 builders". This one is a solid silver.
Worra Lorra Old Blocks (no digger) - Definitely a gold if it is making the cut.
Save Me (save 45) - Bronze, in particular due to there being several ways to achieve it.


Out of the options presented I voted for "B", but this is very much on a "had to pick something" basis (well, I guess I could have abstained, but you know what I mean). As stated, I personally don't care much about the "nice" numbers and would rather come to a decision on each individual talisman, keeping in mind that it doesn't do too much harm (as long as they're not redundant) to have extra ones and so a "if on the fence, just accept it" approach could theoretically be used.

[Minim]

I made a quick vote for Option B.

I also realise I haven't mentioned a colour for the "Acrophobia" talisman in one of my original posts. I don't see this as gold at all, but a silver seems more reasonable. After all, it's only a "one way to get down without a skill" puzzle. Also, it shouldn't be higher than the "Temple of Love" talisman because the former's route is eventually "hold and release" while the latter's is one of those "impeding death" types. So yeah, "Temple of Love" must be gold, and "Acrophobia" silver.

I had a look at Across the Gap's talisman today. I haven't solved it, but I agree with Proxima that the techniques involved are similar to the Chill Out talisman. It is fiddly, but "Across the Gap" has more skills.

"Be more than just a number" OK, I guess we'll have to split the vote and go silver.

"Lemmy..." I like the no miners solution better, and we'll add this as bronze. It's great to hear namida was also able to complete it with 2 builders.

"Save Me" I must've thought 45 was the maximum requirement for this level when I posted my review. Glad that it's not. OK, I'll agree with bronze for this level.

[WillLem]

I would vote for using all four for a total of 10/20/16, but the option isn't there.

People who enjoy talismans will likely appreciate having more to go for, and people who don't like them, or who just ignore them, won't care anyway.

The four talismans being proposed all seem very reasonable. Don't overthink it, just include them all!

[namida]

I also realise I haven't mentioned a colour for the "Acrophobia" talisman in one of my original posts. I don't see this as gold at all, but a silver seems more reasonable. After all, it's only a "one way to get down without a skill" puzzle. Also, it shouldn't be higher than the "Temple of Love" talisman because the former's route is eventually "hold and release" while the latter's is one of those "impeding death" types. So yeah, "Temple of Love" must be gold, and "Acrophobia" silver.

While I can definitely see both of them going either way (even if I do have a slight preference for each of them), I don't think this is good reasoning in and of itself. You can have levels that use a "impending death" type setup yet are much easier than ones with very tricky crowd control - as an example, I don't think anyone would claim that "Drought Season" from LPII is harder than "Drawing Dead" from LPO2; despite that the latter contains the crowd while the former does not. Personally, the trick I used for Acrophobia no-digger I would consider more advanced than the timing needed for Temple Of Love save-29.

[Minim]

OK, I've had a look at both of namida's LP levels and their solutions.

I think I might've used the term "impending death" in the wrong sense, as seen in the solution to "Drought Season". Because you can't pull off that kind of solution in either level thanks to high requirements, I'm sorry for bringing up such a poor argument case. See if I can do better than this.

The "Acrophobia" route is more clear cut, which is why I thought silver was the right choice. However, the techniques required to control & release the crowd are more advanced by about three-fold, but I thought as it involves the same trick as in "I have a cunning plan" players would have no problem in pulling this sort of thing off.  The fact that it must be done inside the created tunnel, and that you still need to hold the crowd makes it more challenging. OK, that last part of the argument makes me more convinced now that this more worthy of gold.

For "Temple of love", I was looking at that glaring space in the water behind where the worker lands on after he creates the first long bridge, and that was when I used the term "impending death". The route seems implausible in the other direction given that you still need another builder to turn them to the exit. Two blockers would've been handy to keep the lemmings safe while the required final stair guides them to the exit, but as it's Save 29, you'll need to think of something that gives the lemmings enough time to find safety. The fact that this is also done on a created route and also that it requires self belief gave me the impression that gold was my choice of colour.

[Proxima]

So... the voting was too close for a clear conclusion and had very few votes, which again isn't surprising, especially as maybe the way I presented the options wasn't the best.

It makes me a bit sad that this is getting so little participation, when we've had enough to keep the momentum going throughout the project up to this point and always had enough that I could feel reasonably confident in making decisions backed by consensus, but the question of talismans is obviously messy and most people don't seem to mind, so I think I will just look again through the feedback, make the decision that feels the most right, and go with that.

That decision is basically option A outlined above, with one exception: "Chill out" will be demoted to silver and "Acrophobia" will be promoted to gold.

I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.

Thank you again to everyone who took part. It's been a long road to get this far, but we are very close to the end

[WillLem]

It makes me a bit sad that this is getting so little participation... the question of talismans is obviously messy and most people don't seem to mind

Don't feel too bad. I think Talismans are a very niche market, judging by various comments I've seen across several topics relating to them.

Also, those who enjoy Talismans are at best likely to be happy with whatever is presented to them, within reason, and at worst just regard them as too easy or a bit pointless.

Meanwhile, those who don't care either way are unlikely to get involved with discussions about them, and those who actively dislike Talismans will most likely want all of them removed, so their input isn't perhaps the most helpful anyway.

[Minim]

I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.

Thank you again to everyone who took part. It's been a long road to get this far, but we are very close to the end

An absolute final version? OK, sure. I think it's about time we stopped updating soon after all these years of deliberation.

Yesterday I decided to modify most of the levels' Y Screen Start Co-ordinates (I notice that whilst playing on Windowed 3x mode for example, the Cascade platform doesn't appear at all whilst the top area cuts off unless you hover the top of the screen). It's surprising how so many levels I've needed to sort out, but I felt it was important personally.

This update also fixes the X Screen Start position for "Lemming Lament", one of those somewhat annoying levels that originally started all the way from the left, picturing a lava river rather than the terrain ahead. This might be an encouragement for players to play on a higher zoom in a Full screen, as you don't need to worry too much about missing entrances anymore! (I've left out the multiple entrance levels however)

Download this inside the 'levels' folder and extract from there. 8)