Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[Minim]

Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post.

Just played it now. Nice work! However, the Author's name "Amiga Lemmings" wasn't filled in. That should be easy to fix. May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.

[Proxima]

May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.

That would make it harder to trap the lemmings with a builder wall, in case the player wants to do that.

[WillLem]

In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle
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"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will... keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked

I voted this way principally because I agree that it's good to have a builders-only level, and this is both an interesting puzzle and a great level to play pause-free. It does kind of stand out as a "naughty" level because of the stacked hatches thing, but as you've mentioned most of the community seem to be generally OK with stacked hatches, depending on how they're used.

The Boiler Room is a great level, though, and the Redux version of it is decent. So... either way is good, but I've voted Timing because I just have more solid reasons for thinking it should be included.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels

Yeah, fair enough. Redux is not really a remix pack and I suppose what I'm suggesting constitutes a remix level. Redux is more like a remastered greatest hits

[Proxima]

"The Boiler Room" wins 7-5 after a very exciting contest It was neck and neck for a long while, then TBR pulled ahead, then WillLem's vote closed the gap a little so I couldn't call it early, but still, a clear enough winner.

For fans of "It's all a matter of timing", I've made a decision. Not only will the level still appear in the NeoLemmix conversions of the full levelpacks, but since the ABC and ABCB versions are substantially different and both did appear in official versions of ONML, I will keep both as separate levels. (Right now currently leaning towards ABCB for Havoc 12 and the ABC version in Extra Levels, but that's a decision for later.)

So, to recap, the level selection and ordering are absolutely final now. We will keep to 160 levels, with "It's all a matter of timing" replaced with "The Boiler Room" and no other selection changes. Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" and Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please" will switch places, with no other ordering changes.

All that's left is to make a final decision regarding talismans. I'll make another post going over the options and put up a poll later today.

[Minim]

Just got the NeoLemmix update from the website; However V12.9.3 has replaced Proxima's updated changes that I made. I've gone ahead and made all the changes (again) and have attached the updated level pack below. Now we just need the website to upload the updared content.

[Proxima]

I've updated the first post of the topic with the latest version of Lemmings Redux, which is compatible with NeoLemmix 12.10.

Changes:

* The Boiler Room has replaced It's all a matter of timing as Lunatic 2. (NB: I am still maintaining a separate conversion of original Lemmings for NeoLemmix, and this will contain It's all a matter of timing in both its 3-hatch and 4-hatch versions. It will, however, be a while before I have time to post an update, so please be patient.)
* Where Lemmings Dare has switched places with With a twist of lemming, please, so the former is now Manic 31 and the latter is now Manic 11.
* If at first you don't succeed has no water, which was a decision made a long time ago, but for some reason the version with water was still included in the pack up to now.
* Which one are you trying to get? has only 3 trapdoors, so 10 lemmings will drop from each.

No changes have been made as yet regarding talismans. Since there won't be time to make decisions and get an absolutely final version of Redux ready before NL 12.10's stable version, I will wait for the stable version to be out and then re-post a summary of where we are up to with talismans and post a poll.

[Proxima]

12.10 stable is out! It's time to start wrapping up talisman selection so that we can produce a once-and-for-all final version of Lemmings Redux.

Discussion of new talismans was mostly on pages 2-4 of this topic, with this post in particular being a summary of the situation so far (which hasn't changed since then). The changes to level selection mostly don't affect talismans: none were proposed for "It's all a matter of timing", and the talisman on "Which one are you trying to get?" still works. As for "The Boiler Room", possible talismans would be "save 49/50", "no blockers" or "6 builders"; I'm fairly neutral on whether any of those should be chosen.

There are currently 36 talismans. Only a couple have been suggested for possible removal: "The Great Lemming Caper" no blockers, and "PoP YoR ToP" bombers only (since the latter is not possible on the original game). The above-linked post contains a list of 15 possible new talismans, mostly being my own selection from the max-saved and SYCLW challenges.

Since there hasn't been much input from anyone else as to which talismans to select, I've decided to put up a poll for how many talismans we should have, and once that's settled, we can decide on which ones. Please note: you can select up to 3 options, so that if you think the number of talismans should be in the range 40-48, you can select "40", "44" and "48". Please don't abuse this by making an incoherent vote such as "36", "48" and "50".

This vote is not strictly binding. If, for example, 44 wins, then I'll take it we should include some but not all of the proposed new talismans, and run further discussion on that basis; the final number won't necessarily be 44 exactly (and might not even be a multiple of 4).

32: We would have to remove four existing talismans, but this would mean the number of talismans would be exactly 1/5 of the number of levels.
36: The current number. If this wins, I will still ask for consideration on whether we should remove some existing talismans in favour of new ones.
40: Exactly 1/4 of the number of levels.
44: We would select some but not all of the proposed new talismans.
48: We would accept nearly all of the proposed new talismans, in addition to cutting some existing ones.
50: This is a nice round number and an easy target to arrive at: we could accept all the new talismans and cut "PoP YoR ToP" to arrive at 50 exactly.
More than 50: This would require finding additional new talismans as well as my proposed list.

[namida]

If going for a low-builders talisman on The Boiler Room, I would set it at 7 rather than 6. Cutting out that extra builder is mostly just a matter of "do everything pixel-precise". The overall approach doesn't change. "Save 49" implies no blockers anyway; because you cannot solve it without at least one bomber, and have no other way to free blockers, so I'd think a "no blockers" talisman borders on pointless here.

So - I would say either "Save 49" as a Bronze, or "7 builders" as either Silver or Gold, I'm on the fence as to which. Leaning a bit more towards Silver.

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

[Proxima]

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

If you have time, could you look through my list of 15 (linked in the post above) and tell me which ones from those you consider worthwhile?

[Minim]

This may have been posted in May, but seeing this properly for the first time, thanks for this awesome list! I'm enjoying most of these talismans and delving each one into detail. Looking forward to doing more of this, but here are the first five talismans I'm going to talk about. Some of my replays are attached too.

{1} Chill out! - No climbers
{2} Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers
{3} No justice for the hero - Save 100%
{4} Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners
{5} Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills

Spoiler

{1} I admire the obscurity but I don't like this one. Without blockers, I had to do several repetitive (and pixel precise) skill assignments to prevent any lemming from falling into the pit below.

{2} Great challenge! I really like the way I used the builders here, building from the miner back onto the basher's tunnel but not quite sealing it and then stacking multiple builders. (This is the pixel precise part, but as long as the builders are placed to help the lemmings home then that's OK. )

{3} This is probably one of the only talismans where the first lemming isn't required to do anything, and that it's not always on the same start screen. With a high release rate that can't be controlled very much, I had to think which lemming needed to become digger so that just one lemming turns to the right and has a long enough gap to build a bridge at the far end. It takes a few tries to get right, but it's another cool solution, although not much as it appears on paper to do, I think this talisman should be added to the game, as a bronze/silver.

{4} This is the only one I didn't do a replay for. I've seen these solutions before, but discovered an abnormality: Two replays downloaded for No basher solutions and One for No miner. The builders/bashers one looks simple to find but bashing in the wrong place can run your bashers out. The builder/miner method doesn't look that obvious, but with about 80% of the level being terrain the miners can carve very long tunnels. The No miners challenge is better, not only because there hasn't been a "No miner" talisman before but the obscurity of the solution I've watched should promote the talisman to silver or gold.

{5} This is a great challenge, but reasonably open, as I can currently count four different ways of doing this: Two of them take the left exit, one for the right, and another one I found takes both exits. The right solution I found abuses the background (Much to the chagrin of Gary Timmons ) but is very obscure. All three solutions involving left exits require a safety bridge, and completing that can save you up to 8 floaters, making the talisman easier to solve. Two of the three solutions require release rate changes in order to set up the safety net quicker, and requires a precise release rate and a precise builder to make this work. Afterwards, you can up the rate to 99 and cram the lemmings into a single pit and let them build out once the main bridge is complete OR leave it open and assign builders to whoever leads to cross the gaps, climbing the ones in any pits out afterwards. For the last one, I simply challenged myself to create a safety net without RR changes, and I succeeded! This one looks more elegant and requires a fair bit of multitasking but it's easier to get than the other two. I wonder with this solution alone that it will be enough to demote this talisman to bronze?

[Minim]

Now, the rest of the levels. I think it would be helpful to name the rank and order each of these levels appear in. But anyway, here's the last 10. Some more of my replays are attached for some of the levels, along with some more spoilery comments.

{6} SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
{7} Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
{8} ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
{9} Steel Block Party - No builders
{10} Be more than just a number - Save 100%
{11} Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
{12} SEGA Four - No climbers
{13} With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
{14} Temple of Love - Save 29/30
{15} Save Me - Save 45/50

Spoiler

{6} Thanks to the added time, I think I backrouted this challenge heavily. Although this comes with RR changes thanks to the uneven terrain, I simply bashed under the floor and built round the back of the exit ledge. Cutting the time down or simply shortening the level further will remove the problem. Otherwise, Avoid.

{7} Just seen the solution to this one. With no diggers, there's only one possible way to get down here. However, the trick used right at the end with the builders and fall height is unbelievable! To pull that off takes some doing. This talisman should be added, preferably as silver/gold.

{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go. If this isn't too annoying to execute we'll put this talisman in as a Gold one.

{9} Very clever solution that involves pretty much everything: Altering the basher's position, blocking to organise the lemmings and then using a different block of steel which looks completely irrelevant compared to the rest of the level to your advantage. This really takes trapping and freeing the pack to another level. (E.g. Mayhem 20) There's also a bit of RR modifying required to pull the first trick off correctly but otherwise a solution that requires sheer expansive knowledge of mechanics, even though the level is so short. Probably one of the gold contenders considering the obscurity.

{10} Haven't solved this one, but saw the downloaded replay and it's another clever solution. Anyway, starting with a climber looks tempting. However, because the climber is permanent, and there are several climbable walls that lead to danger on this level you'll find yourself in heaps of trouble. A simple holy staircase is useless for 100% as you need the two diggers for the thin red floors and that you want to avoid the blocker for a landscape with so much steel. Building when landing on the top of an opposite facing stair to create a holy staircase is genius crowd control, and doesn't look viable in such a tight area where it's so close to the death ceiling; but it's one possible way to get 100% while saving skills for more important parts of the level. If this is the only viable method, add this talisman in as Gold.

{11} Solved with a replay atttached. A true classic. Given that you have only builders to work with, and that they have to annoyingly be built in precisely the right places, it's mostly about organising the lemmings well enough for what lies ahead. I made only one RR modification, upping the rate to 99 after the first lemming came out to cram them into a newly-made pit and then followed the published eight builder solution from there, taking turns with different lemmings to create stairs so that two lemmings emerged through with enough distance between them to complete the next two tasks: Building another "wall" and building another bridge. Given the level itself is in Lunatic, should we make this a Silver?

{12} I saw a published 17-skill solution that used every skill bar climbers. It was enjoyable except for the last part, which needed several skill changes, precise skill placement and timing, and advanced lemming control, similar to the first talisman. Unless there's an easier way to propel the lemmings up to the exit, (Which doesn't look likely as you need three builders to cross the gaps and two builders to summit the steel block) Avoid.

{13} Manic 11's talisman replay attached. I think I tried and failed this one before, but this time I managed to get it (Though it took me a long while). Once a route is worked out, this talisman involves trial and error while using two certain release rates, and then you have to float nine other lemmings to land exactly in the same place. I'm on the fence with this one. Should we motivate these players and include this talisman? I believe talismans are just an additional part of the game rather than the main part.

{14} Just saw the solution to this. A great challenge and should be added in as a gold. It looks like there isn't much to the solution initially. Controlling the crowd is the easy part. The first part of the route is also straightforward. The hard part is the exit facing the other direction. The blocker placement is obvious; but even with that, with no wall guarding the lemmings behind them on that second platform, they seem to be destined for doom. A simple digger to released the crowd isn't enough, you'll need to buy time to build across that gap; Hence, this talisman's impossible so far without RR changes. That part, combined with the extra lemming requirement makes this one worthy for gold. You'll need to look at all the important areas AND play around with different things to make this one count.

{15} After seeing the published Save 45 solution, there are great points worth pointing out here. It's very hard to isolate two workers from the crowd when you already need at least one worker to make a counter bridge. After that, you'll need to not only get these two lemmings down the digger's tunnel but also to separate them for the last (and probably the most famous) part, the builder blockers on the platform edges. Clearly the solver observed the terrain where to dig. The placement of the digger on that broken pillar is ingenious, giving the solver lots of time for the first lemming to complete an important step of the stair. This is another wonderful challenge and well worthy to be included as a Gold talisman.

So, only three talismans I thoroughly disagree with so far. Adding all my agreeable ones in to the existing lot would increase the tally to 48, which makes a nice multiple of three. However, I appear to be the only one so far to have voted for three options: 40, 44 and 48.

[Proxima]

{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.

Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!

(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)

Other than that, thank you for some great feedback!

[namida]

* Chill out! - No climbers

Is there any other talisman currently, that requires this trick? If not, I would think this one is worth adding. If there is, I would vote against it, as there's basically nothing to this beyond that one trick.

* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers

I'd go for No Diggers.

* No justice for the hero - Save 100%

I can't figure this one out.

* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners

I remember both of these being quite interesting.

* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills

I'd suggest No Climbers instead.


I'll have to look at the rest later.

For my own reference

* SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
* Steel Block Party - No builders
* Be more than just a number - Save 100%
* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
* SEGA Four - No climbers
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30
* Save Me - Save 45/50

[Minim]

{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.

Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!

(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)

Other than that, thank you for some great feedback!

No problem, Proxima.

And whoops, that was a rather hilarious mistake that was well spotted on {8}! Also, as I apparently had no replay attached for {2}, my comments are referring to the "no diggers" talisman. I thought I had to do both requirements here too, but using the bomber as part of the solution, I kinda forgot about it.

OK, time to redo {8} and a possible "No Climbers" talisman for "Going Their Separate Ways".

[Minim]

OK, had a proper look at this today. The newly proposed ROCKY ROAD talisman (2 builders) is a long analysis, so I'll highlight the tricks required in bold. My replay is attached too. In short, it should be added as a Gold talisman.

Spoiler

{8} With only two builders, you'll first need to work out what areas can be crossed with just two builders, not to mention the chameleon (And later the grass) trap. Even so, you'll need to work out ways to actually access these areas. You'll need to highlight the obstacles on the landscape and try different digging skills, because you only have six of those in total even without the talisman, with just two of them being bashers. The published solution involves expert crowd control after advancing through the tree, by setting a 99RR to cram them together and letting the last lemming mine the gem wall to keep the others packed. A miner is framestepped at just the right moment before turning it into a blocker, rather than a builder. Now the level can't be solved can it? There's only one way to counteract this: Releasing the blocker by letting another lemming bomb immediately next to it. With this trick, you can do this with any lemming you like, but I simply used the last lemming. Now they have a worker ready to plant the first bridge without anybody to worry about. Now the next gap: The one at the bottom is out of reach, so only the top gap can be crossed, but you are so low down from crossing that first gap, how can you reach up there? A basher is still available, so use that. To reach up to the grass above, another framestep with the basher's third stroke will enable the lemmings to reach the grassy area smoothly without the incline being too steep while also making it to the trap. The basher can simply be blocked when the moment arrives. Crowd control and isolating workers is a bit more difficult this time around, as you only have bombers, the builder to cross the gap and still need the digger/miner for the last part. At this stage look at the number of lemmings you can lose. If you're good enough at blocker stopping the number can be as high as 8. You'll need a group of lemmings once you release the blocker while keeping the majority at bay for a short while. I highlighted the eighth-to-last lemming to bomb next to the blocker. This should give you at least three lemmings to sacrifice for the grass trap and then build the last gap. The published solution exchanged the digger on that tree for a miner, but it only works if that bomber crater on the gem wall is placed so that lemmings can walk over it, making this method less reliable. Alternatively you could mine the tree twice and use a digger. If you can afford to lose another lemming you could turn the leader into a blocker underneath the second stair and dig at the far right edge with someone in the crowd, which is what I did.

So, a bit like a Core 4 Maths A-Level question really. Just piece all the parts together, keep experimenting and you'll get the talisman. I used 17 different actions in my solution. This question really is worth at least 16 marks and an overall higher grade.