Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[JRT]

I'll have a look at the pack currently but I'd agree with WillLem, "Ascending Pillar Scenario" is iconic Lemmings. I enjoy "Heaven can Wait" but I'd choose Pillar over this plus I'm toying with a sequel to Heaven myself.

"Boiler Room" is another well recognised level, my opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.

I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad.

I'm looking forward to seeing what's been done with this pack.

[Proxima]

I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad.

Namida has said that NL is working towards a final version, and already the engine is stable enough that I don't foresee much, if any, further maintenance work being required. I'm firmly committed to keeping both Redux and the full original level pack available as long as I'm around, so I don't think you need worry about any levels being lost (and in any case, the original games can still be played even if NeoLemmix were to disappear).

My opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.

Absolutely -- that's the principle the pack is built on. The trouble is the difficulty of establishing consensus -- even when we were first putting the pack together, it was a very slow progress to get people to post their opinions and put everything together; it is much, much harder now that the pack is complete and only a very few people are sufficiently interested to post opinions on possible changes.

[Minim]

Secondly, does anyone have any criticism of the current ordering? The one change I will almost certainly make, since I've asked for opinions on this during the LP and there seems to be consensus, is to move Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later within the rank, most likely switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please".

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Proposed fix for "It's all a matter of timing":



This fix (if accepted) will only be used in Redux.

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels (Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place). Considering on Lunatic 6 that all these windows are at the top, "splitting" them to make them visible would actually look messy. Manic 26 "Triple Trouble" retains the three windows.

I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage. I remember playing an old Level Design Contest level "Bookworm Bite" which I think involved digging part of the structure to get a climber up to the top, which I thought was very clever. Anyway, here's my proposal (and talisman solution) attached below.

[Proxima]

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels

No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.

(Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place).

Thank you for pointing this out. I can't see any reason why the puzzle is improved by having half the lemmings coming out the middle hatch, so I will remove the duplicated hatch.

I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage.

Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.

[Minim]

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.

Yep. I totally agree with moving "With a twist of lemming, please" to Manic 11 in place of "Where Lemmings Dare".

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels

No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.

...

Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.

Thanks for the clarifications. I understand now.

[WillLem]

"It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this.

I know it's already been discussed, but whilst decisions are still being made, I'll just voice the opinion that splitting the hatches looks very messy and completely ruins the level's aesthetic. I understand why it's being done this way, but I'd strongly disagree that it's the "best way to achieve this."

Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.

I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.

Anyways, other than that the rest of the pack seems fine to me. I'll just suggest the following levels for inclusion one more time, and then that's pretty much all I have to contribute. It's a great pack, and I think it's a good idea to bundle it with NL so new users have a pack to play immediately on downloading the platform, and one which makes it clear that NL promotes a particular game philosophy.

The Ascending Pillar Scenario (what JRT said)
Mary Poppins' Land (of all the levels that require backwards-building for safe landing, this is by far the most iconic and memorable)
Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)

WillLem out

[Proxima]

Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.

It's displaced diagonally, not horizontally. The horizontal and vertical displacements exactly cancel each other out (in terms of time taken for the lemming to reach the end of the platform).

I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.

...whereas that would affect the solution. And here's what it would look like:



I understand our tastes differ here, but I find the stacked trapdoors much uglier than my version. Considering that the trapdoor conceptually represents a hole in the ceiling of the level (notwithstanding how weird that is in perspective terms), it makes no sense to layer them so the holes overlap. In my version, the slats of some the trapdoors drop down in front of other trapdoors, but at least the holes are spaced out.

[namida]

Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)

Hard disagree. Aside from that change being a case of "going too far" IMO, it doesn't fix the main problem with Steel Works - that while it may have an interesting start and end, the middle is a blatant tedious builderfest. Removing the middle part would be even more so "going too far". Steel Works is simply a level that doesn't fit well for Redux.

For that matter, I'd say Ascending Pillar Scenario isn't much better. On the other hand, Mary Poppins' Land may be viable, as the building needed isn't too excessive; though I wouldn't say I feel too strongly about it - more just I wouldn't object to it.

[Proxima]

Okay. I think we should make a final decision about Havoc 12 before moving on, so I've put up a poll.

I am considering the following options (please read carefully before voting):

* Three hatches with ABC order: This is the most harmonious with the expected behaviour in NeoLemmix, and matches what we are doing with all other 3-hatch levels. It does change the solution, but the resulting level is still solvable and interesting.

* Duplicate the middle hatch in the same position (i.e. the currently published version): This is the most harmonious with the original level. The only downside is that it hides information from the player, but I personally consider this an acceptable form of hidden information as (1) it reveals itself very early in the level without the player having to do anything; (2) stacked hatches have been used so frequently that players may at least expect that it's something that can happen.

* WillLem's suggestion (see image above): This is a compromise if you believe that neither of the above is best and my suggestion is too ugly.

* My suggestion (see image further up the page): This is a compromise if you believe that neither of the first two options is best and WillLem's suggestion is too ugly.

* Drop the level entirely: Hey, since it's getting to be problematic and we do have suggestions for other possible inclusions, we could consider this. If this wins the poll, I'll run another poll to decide which level we replace it with (from the ones recently suggested) and this will almost certainly mean we stick with 160 levels and so only introduce one new one.

* Something else I haven't considered yet: Only vote for this if you have an actual suggestion.

[namida]

I'll reiterate that I feel very strongly that overlapping them is not acceptable. While overlapping multiple entrances when they have a difference in skills and/or spawn direction is not unheard of, these give clear hints to the player that there's something going on, because the icons that indicate direction / skills overlap in a way that draws attention. Even that, after thinking about this case, I'm wondering how acceptable that is. When they're done purely for spawn order, there is no warning until the player watches what order the lemmings spawn in, and even this could be overlooked by a player who isn't specifically looking out for it.

My strongest preference would be either to retain the expected ABCABC ordering, or else to replace the level altogether. I'm fairly neutral between the two - I don't see this as a bad level that actively should be removed, but I wouldn't consider it a huge loss if it was removed either; doubly so if it comes down to "keep the level in a misleading form" vs "remove the level". Either offset option (with my preference of the two being the diagonal one) is okay too - they do look a bit awkward but they aren't misleading.

I will note that it being misleading is not purely a hypothetical / principle thing. My first attempts at this level for SYCLW failed because I had planned it around the expected spawn order, not realising that it had a hidden 4th entrance.

[Proxima]

I take it, though, you wouldn't actually block us from going ahead with the change if that option does win the poll? There are other published NL packs with stacked hatches, and there are likely to be a fair number of them in my conversions of old Lemmix packs, which I still have as a back-burner project (Redux and the official levelpack conversions being my priority at the moment).

[Dullstar]

I don't feel that overlapping hatches is a huge issue, and if the solution depends on it, it's probably best to go with overlapping. I would discourage it in new levels, but I have no issues with it appearing in older packs for compatibility reasons where necessary.

[ericderkovits]

Although we've gone thru this before, I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches,  as custom levels are new to a player. But in official or rehashes of one then I think it should be allowed since that is how the lemmings were spawned in the official versions.
I know in Lix many of the 2 player levels have overlapping hatches to get the lemmings to alternate direction although they probably have different colors too.

But I think we should just let the people vote on it and accept THEIR decision as this is a community of lemmings players. No one person should override that. If the abc order wins then we go with that or if any other option wins, just go with that.

[Proxima]

Just a reminder to everyone: By all means post to explain your position in more detail, but vote in the poll as well! The poll is how I wil judge how many people prefer each option, so if you haven't voted then you won't be counted.

Also, you can vote for more than one option if you like -- it's "Which of these do you consider acceptable?", not "Which is your top option?"

[namida]

I don't intend to outright block overlapping hatches, but should a "unfair content detection" feature become a reality in the future, expect overlapping hatches to be something it warns players about.

I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches,  as custom levels are new to a player.

There is no reason why levels from the official game should have a special rule seperate from any other NeoLemmix level. If they require doing something like this, it simply means they're a bad fit for NeoLemmix and probably don't belong on it - though in this specific case, there are alternative options that could make it work while still fitting NeoLemmix conventions.