Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[Crane]

Hi everyone.

This sprung to mind while watching roundthewheelrtw play through Lemmings Redux.

The talisman for The Great Lemming Caper is too easy to get without even trying for that late on in the pack. You almost have to try to find the Blocker solution to not get it, especially originally you don't know about undermining Blockers at that point.

To keep the numbers even, I would like to suggest the removal of that talisman and the addition of a silver one for Lunatic 29: "Save Me": Lemmings Mastery - Save 45 - basically it means you can only use 5 Blockers without losing any lemmings at the end.

Spoiler

It's possible to do relatively cleanly by using the 2nd digger to break the bridge to the upper platform, and use your Builders carefully to delay a 2nd pathfinder where necessary.
Mastery because, besides being the last level with a talisman,  you have to use Builders and Diggers and manage crowd control slightly unconventionally

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[Proxima]

Firstly, we're already considering talisman additions/removals, and I want to wait until rtw is done with playing the pack so we can ask his opinion (as well as his viewers). I'll take your suggestion into account, but it might not get in, depending on the numbers we end up with.

It's possible to save 47 on Save Me. That said, talismans don't have to be for the maximum possible; Flow Control's talisman is deliberately less.

Redux talismans don't have names at the moment, so if we name any then we would have to come up with (and agree on) names for all of them.

[Crane]

47? Damn. I can hazard a guess as to how to do that (build to the levy from the trapdoor and use 3 builders to make a wall in place odd one of the Blockers?). Granted, unless I was told you could save 47, I wouldn't have thought it was possible!

Is there a more appropriate topic or location where you're taking suggestions?

[Proxima]

Just use this topic for now; one of the mods can merge it with the main Redux topic.

MOD: Topics have now been merged

[Crane]

Not sure if this is helpful or not, but here are my Save 45 and Save 47 solutions for Save Me.  If that is the only way to save 47 lemmings, it's kind of ridiculous and feels very messy rather than intricate.  The other thing is that my solution takes longer than 5 minutes (the level's original time limit), but it could probably be optimised if the lemmings are released sooner and the original pathfinder becomes the 2nd lemming going towards the exit.

[Crane]

It seems I have an old version of Redux which didn't have the talisman on "I am A.T.", I don't think, hence my suggestion to name the one in "Save Me" as "Lemmings Mastery".  Still, I just completed it now, and wow, that was fiddly... not sure if I enjoy it though - still it is a challenge, I'll give it that.

[Proxima]

Now that roundthewheel has finished solving the levels (talisman solutions are still to come), this is a good time to recap where we're up to.

* No further levels requiring backroute fixes have emerged, so the level layouts will not be changed any further from this point, except:
* Since NL has fixed some misleading trap trigger locations (notably the rope trap and the "Poor Wee Creatures" trap), the traps can be adjusted slightly to be more visible (which was the main point of arguing for the change, after all). This will only have a slight effect on the gameplay, and most or all replays should still work.
* I am considering moving Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later, possibly switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please". (Other possible candidates for switching that have been discussed are Manic 27 "Watch your fingertip" and Lunatic 7 "Down, along, up, in that order". As always, I'm open to feedback on this, and we can have a vote if necessary.)
* We are considering adding some talismans, and it's worth considering whether we want to remove any at the same time, so as to finish with a nice number. I want to wait on this until roundthewheel has finished solving the talismans so he and his viewers can join in the discussion.
* Should "Pop Yor Top" revert to lose-7 as on the original game? That would make the "bombers only" talisman impossible, so we would have to remove that one.

[Crane]

Personally, I would say that all solutions should be possible in their original games, so the Bomber-only solution I would consider ineligible (although I'd keep 10 Bombers just to see if players are paying attention) - the only talisman-like solution I can think of for "PoP YoR ToP" is "Save 100% in under 1:00.00", which is Bronze at best.

The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute?  Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)

Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.

[Proxima]

The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute?  Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)

Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.

We already discussed Kessel in the development topic and decided to leave it, although given how few people contributed to each decision, we could reopen some of them if you (or anyone) really feels strongly about it. I'm against blocking that route because putting steel there would spoil the nice-looking bone structure; neither solution is really more obvious than the other (given that it's not obvious a priori that you have enough resources to get through the thick wall and still complete the solution; and it takes other skills as well as bombers and you still have to deal with the trap); and we have no idea what the developers intended.

I've said this a few times, but "backroute" is not just a synonym for "unintended solution". It should mean a solution that feels more like bypassing the puzzle rather than engaging with it. Turning around at the top on "Let's go camping" is a very clear example, as is the direct drop solution to "Acrophobia". The blocker solution on "The Great Lemming Caper" is much more debatable, and I'm citing it as an example to show that even when we're clear about a definition of "backroute", it's still a fuzzy line. While it does bypass what is really interesting about the no-blocker solution -- having to time the two lemmings' movements relative to each other instead of being able to hold one of them in place as long as you want -- it is still a different, valid way of engaging with the puzzle as it was presented to the player. We discussed this one (as well as "Final impediment") in the development topic and there were very clear votes for leaving these levels as they are, with talismans to reward players for finding the more interesting solutions.

In short: since there will be one more update to the pack anyway, I am open to making more backroute fixes if necessary, and I'll listen if you have a strong opinion that a particular solution should be removed; but if no strong reasons for making changes turn up, there will not be any more backroute fixes. Also, I intend the next update to be absolutely final so that players have a stable final version, and we don't have to worry about our challenge results being invalidated with further changes.

[Crane]

That sounds fair.  Regarding Kessel, I wouldn't have added steel, but would have just added a bit more regular terrain on the right side to make it slightly thicker at floor level.  Given how there are deliberately thin parts of the floor and only 10 Bombers, Blockers and Builders, an educated guess tells me that the developers want you to plot a course through the thin parts of the level.  I'm not sure how practical it is to brute force your way through the thick wall at the top on the Amiga version even with Blockers.  Your call though.

True, an unintended solution isn't a backroute, especially if it's intricate and clever.  It depends on the spirit of the level.  I wouldn't call the Blocker solution a backroute, since the tools (remember the original had 10 Bashers, Miners and Diggers) seem to imply there are multiple solutions.  Granted, the Blocker solution does allow you to trap a Lemming.

My personal opinions based on the level design and my own personal feelings.
- Save 47 solution to Save Me... questionable (it's fairly clear that the designers want you to block the Builder going to the right to get on top).
- Thick wall solution to Steel Mines of Kessel... backroute (the thin parts of the terrain imply that the designers want you to use the Bombers there instead of just brute force something similar to the Fun version).
- Blocker solution to The Great Lemming Caper... acceptable (using a Blocker/Miner turnaround trick takes a stretch of the imagination).

These are just my personal thoughts though.

[Proxima]

Another thing to note on Kessel is that since NL tracks personal records, the player can always challenge themselves to save as many as possible, even without a talisman for doing so. Saving 44/50 absolutely requires taking the route through the thin terrain and over the water.

[Proxima]

Replays of all talismans for roundthewheel and anyone else who wants them.

(rtw: I've included all talismans including the ones you've already solved. My solutions to some of these may be interesting to you, especially "A beast of a level" and "The Steel Mines of Kessel".)

[Crane]

I have a challenge for The Crankshaft if you're interested, although it's at least silver because it requires a miner trick to save 100%...

Save 50 using only miners and climbers

It's obviously a step up from simply having no builders, plus it may look a bit messy if it says "Save 50 with no floaters, bombers, blockers, builders or diggers", although you could remove bombers from that and name the talisman "Now use miners and climbers" so it's clear.  Here's a replay of how it's done.

[Proxima]

One way it could be done:

Spoiler

Send up a climber, and start mining from the top-left of the first pillar. When he's deep enough, have another climber turn around in his tunnel and mine to release him. Repeat this to make a zigzag tunnel down the pillar that lemmings can't climb back up. Then continue the usual solution, and mine to release the crowd at the end.

If that's what you intend, this trick is extremely fiddly in NeoLemmix so I would be very reluctant to make a level or talisman requiring it. In addition, we already have a bronze talisman for The Crankshaft, and it's important to keep a good balance between bronze, silver and gold, so I definitely don't want to replace any of the existing bronzes (except maybe PoP YoR ToP, as discussed above).

[Crane]

It might be slightly fiddly, yeah, but nowhere near as bad as the "I am A.T." talisman, and your solution sounds perfectly acceptable too if the first miner can survive the fall.

My intention would be to replace the existing talisman on The Crankshaft - but if you feel it's not a good idea, then I'll gladly step aside.

ADDENDUM: In my solution in the post above, that miner stopping trick only has to be performed once.