Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[WillLem]

Another quick shout out for increasing the number of levels in the pack, adding an extra rank, and decreasing the number of levels in each rank.

When LPing the first rank of Redux for the series, it felt waaayyy too long to be honest. Since it was the first episode and I was excited to be filming a full-length LP, I kind of overlooked this and so didn't mention it, but yes: 5 ranks of 26 (130) or 28 (140) would be better than 4 of 32 (128).

The best thing might be to have another look at which levels could be culled, and then have 5 of 25... buuut I get the feeling that means Mary Poppins' Land definitely won't be included, so go with 5 of 26 or 28!

Regarding the non-inclusion of Steel Works, that's fine... I suppose this and Nessy gives us reasons to go back to the original pack every now and then.

[Proxima]

The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168). We could go above that to 175 or 180 if we could find enough worthwhile levels, but since we just had an open discussion and only the ones in the current vote were suggested, I don't think that's a possibility any more.

And just to be clear: as soon as this vote ends, or if the result is clear enough to call early, we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.

If the vote goes against increasing the pack size, then we'll have a final vote on whether to replace "It's all a matter of timing" with one of the front runners of the current vote, but other than that, culling any levels that are currently in the pack is absolutely not on the table. We went through a very long selection process, and one of the guiding principles all the way along was that in terms of establishing community consensus, everything said for or against a level, even across different stages of the discussion, still counted. Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems, such as when we removed "Oh No! Squish!" due to unfixable backroutes) would not only be disrespectful; it would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.

[WillLem]

The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168).

OK, I'd suggest 6 x 28 then. Maybe even 7 x 24...

we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.

My apologies - perhaps my choice of wording wasn't quite right. What I meant was that since the current discussion may lead to an increase in the number of levels in the pack, I felt it necessary to bring attention to the fact that doing so will also, by default, increase the number of levels in each rank. Since my opinion is that the ranks are already way too long at 32 levels each, it seemed relevant to include this point as a factor for consideration in the current discussion.

Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems... would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.

Yes, I can see how that would be an issue. Since discussion regarding the levels has been opened up again, it initially seemed to make sense to include as many opinions regarding level selection at this stage as possible, especially now that Redux is bundled with NeoLemmix and therefore represents the current community.

However, if removing levels is already a no-go, then of course I agree on the basis of the reasons you presented (i.e. preserving previous decisions regarding the levels.)

[Proxima]

No, there's no default. The next vote will explicitly be between the options of 160, 162, 165 and 168.

They all have pros and cons. As well as the fact that 168 would require a bit more digging around to find suitable levels (although I do have ideas for that), going up to six ranks would require rethinking which levels go in each, with particular care at the end of each rank and the start of the next. I'll probably end up doing most of this work myself, since it would take a very long time to do it by consensus.

Another consideration that I only just thought of: six ranks would require six special graphics levels, presumably with "SUNSOFT Special" as the sixth (although since the pack currently treats "SEGA Four" as a special graphics level, adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility). That means that 162 would only introduce one other new level, so that option would only really be worth considering if there was one level that had really strong support, which, at the moment, there isn't.

Another minor point: I don't have any really great ideas for a sixth rank name that fits nicely with the five we have. Of course, the extra rank name need not go at the end but could be slotted anywhere in the middle.

[namida]

adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility

The only other SEGA level that's much of a worthwhile candidate would be the other version of SEGA Four.

Maybe a version of SEGA One or SEGA Two as an early-pack easy level could work, I guess - they're decent as early-game easy levels (but the repeats aren't much harder outside of a nasty time limit on one of them).

Another option is The Prima Publishing Level, though there isn't any obvious choice of special music to go with that one. I'd say The Covox Level isn't really unique enough, while The Apple Computer Level has obvious reasons against it.

One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.

[Proxima]

One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.

Interesting thought, but no. I had a look on The Lemmings Encyclopedia, and didn't find any levels (widely liked or not) using only the classic 8 skills. The closest is Caveman 1, which uses only stompers, builders and club bashers; but it has an object that (I'm guessing from the screenshot) flings the lemmings, which we can't replicate. In addition, nearly all L2 levels outside Classic are vertical scrolling.

[Proxima]

Okay. The current vote is stable enough to call. "Heaven can wait (we hope!)", "The ascending pillar scenario" and "Steel Works" are rejected and won't appear in the pack or in any subsequent votes.

The other levels ("Mary Poppins' Land", "Tribute to M. C. Escher", "Take a running jump", "The Boiler Room" and "Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension") all got 5 or 6 votes out of 9 -- enough support for them to remain in contention, but not enough that any of them must be included.

Therefore I don't feel it's necessary to expand the pack beyond 160 levels, but it's certainly possible if enough people feel it's desirable. Thus, time for another vote

There are two orthogonal questions here. Firstly: should the pack have five ranks or six? At five ranks, it's been felt that the number of levels per rank is a bit high, so spreading them out among six ranks makes sense. The main downsides to six ranks are the work involved in coming up with a level ordering; choosing a sixth special graphics level (although we could choose not to have one) and finding a good rank name. Secondly: should we stick with 160 levels (or 162, if we go up to six ranks) or should we let in a few more?

Please note: If the vote ends up favouring adding more levels, I will spend some time going over the old Redux topic to look for possibilities, in addition to the ones involved in the previous vote; we won't just blindly add the top two, five or eight of this vote. In particular, if 168 is the winning option, that does not re-add the three levels that were just rejected.

[WillLem]

Official WillLem Suggestion:

6 ranks of 27
Replace Matter of Timing with 4TH DIMENSION
Replace Old MacDonald with Mary Poppins' Land
Add Running Jump and Boiler Room to bring the total levels to 162

[Proxima]

Okay, time to wrap this up.

Eight people voted, which is fewer than I would like for such an important decision, but just about enough to give me confidence in making the call.

Six voted for keeping the pack at five ranks, which is a sizable majority, so that is the final decision. Five voted for a smaller number of levels (160 or 162) and the other three voted for both a fewer-levels and a more-levels option, so again, that's enough of a majority to call it for sticking to a smaller number.

So, we will stick with the current setup of five ranks, 32 levels each, and that is absolutely final from here on.

Regarding the recent discussion of possible levels to add if we did add some more: several decent suggestions came up, but none that stood out as must-haves, especially as it's now agreed that the official conversions of the full original levelpacks will remain, so all the levels excluded from Redux will still be maintained in NeoLemmix.

However, there's one possible inclusion/exclusion I want to settle with a separate vote, and then this discussion is completely wrapped up and we can move on to talismans (as well as other possible changes, if any). Of all the proposed inclusions, "The Boiler Room" stood out as having fairly strong reasons for inclusion, and ranked joint highest in the recent vote. "It's all a matter of timing" is the one level I would consider dropping, partly because it's not especially interesting as a puzzle; partly because it's problematic because of the stacked hatches (although the separate discussion topic seems to have reached a consensus that stacked hatches are okay, it's a bit weird to do this for just one level).

Obviously, there are arguments on the other side as well. In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle. Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.

So, yes/no vote on whether we replace "It's all a matter of timing" with "The Boiler Room".

[Minim]

If this is OK, I thought I might just add the downloads for these levels for everyone to try. Just be warned that there are steel bits lurking around the exit platform in "The Boiler Room", but with Clear Physics Mode on this shouldn't be enough of a nuisance.

[Proxima]

Thank you, that's a good idea. If we use "The Boiler Room" then I'll tidy it to meet NeoLemmix standards as we've done for every other level in the pack.

[namida]

Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.

As I mentioned on Discord - I don't feel this is a particularly strong argument. "Don't Leave Any Lemmings" is a lot more clear in what needs to be done; "The Boiler Room" it's well hidden. Additionally, there are routes on DLAL that do not involve (at least, not intentionally) ceiling-bombing, at least not in any way that has a similar feel to Boiler Room.

[Proxima]

Sure. Just doing my best to summarise all the arguments, strong and weak, so that I'm not favouring either side in the vote. It's interesting to see that it's pretty evenly split so far!

[WillLem]

It's a difficult one to call since these two are such different levels. Can you give more specific details, i.e. what will the save requirements / skillset be for each level, what changes will be made? It might be easier to vote if there's more info about what the final product will look like.

Incidentally, for Boiler Room I'd suggest including miners and making a 100% save talisman

[Proxima]

Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post. (For "It's all a matter of timing", either look at the current Redux pack, or Minim's post further up.)

"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will have no changes from the current version. It will keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked, because this was the outcome favoured by two votes, and namida's separate discussion seems to have resulted in the outcome that a majority feel stacked hatches are okay.

"The Boiler Room" will have 50 lemmings (to save 40), no time limit, steel only where there is visible steel, and the fire traps along the bottom adjusted so that lemmings walking down the spikes burn rather than drop off the level. The skillset will be unchanged.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels. It may sometimes seem that way with the changes we have made, but all the changes are either to NeoLemmix-ise the levels (e.g. removing time limits, removing unnecessary blockers) or to improve the playing experience (revealing traps, fixing glaring backroutes). A change that permits a solution that wasn't possible on the original level would not be okay, except where this is an unavoidable consequence of time limit removal -- and even then, we would take a serious look at whether the new solution was different enough that it might be worth making an exception and keeping the time limit on that one level.

Finally, I know you are keen on your 100% saves, but this being possible on all levels was never part of the original game and there's no reason it should be on Redux either. 100% on "The Boiler Room" was only ever possible with an unintended glitch.

I accept that at the moment, there is no level that really shows breaking through a ceiling with non-bomber destructive skills; if we felt it urgent to have such a level, we could have included Wild 9 "Ice Station Lemming" or Blizzard 7 "Break on through". But at this stage, I feel it's too late to consider either level, when we've just voted to keep the pack at 160 levels; those two levels lost out in the original selection process; and both are execution-over-puzzle types that would be unlikely to win a vote-off against any currently included level.