[NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack

[kaywhyn]

That's quite surprising, because I thought BT1 17 was really easy. Just do exactly what the pre-text says and you'll see how very easy it is.

[IchoTolot]

Ok, as uberwolfie and mantha may have some more feedback I push the patch preperations to probably next weekend.

I am also a bit surprised that BT1 17 causes some troubles. Try to use the trick stated in the pretext whereever you can and you should be fine in theory.

Maybe all you need is a little distance and next time the solution flows to you.

[mantha16]

as i went to type why I couldnt do it I think Ive just figured it out be right back

[mantha16]

yeah i figured it out I was mining in the wrong place

[uberwolfie]

Hi Icho
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.

[IchoTolot]

Hi Icho
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.

Originally this weekend, but there is no rush here so I will wait for your comments.

[uberwolfie]

In which case I'll try not to keep you waiting much longer!

[uberwolfie]

Here's my feedback on the latest patch! Have to say, it really was a lot of fun to play through, and learn all these new tricks, which I'm sure I'll be using on your other packs at some point! And it was exactly what I was looking for in terms of becoming familiar with all the NeoLemmix features.

I've glanced at the feedback others have given, particularly kaywhyn on the latest update, but haven't studied this thread extensively from the beginning so please forgive me if I've brought up anything someone else already mentioned or something that was already discussed and decided upon at an earlier point. Also, You've got lots of feedback on the pre-level texts, I've limited myself mostly to pointing out only very obvious errors.
I've zipped up all my replays, but note that only the ones with the later date are relevant to the current version (don't know if there's an easy way to separate them...)

Spoiler

Skills:

8: Stacks & Stones Saved Our Bones: pre-text: "...turn Lemmings around..." is a bit more natural (to me) than "...turn around Lemmings..."

10: Walking on the Cloner Cliffs: Just a comment, it may sound silly, but having never seen cloners before, this level seemed quite a bit more difficult compared to the previous ones, it did my head in a bit initially working out how to make the "maths" work out. But I'm also probably just an idiot...

Objects & Functions:

5: Trap Roulette: "...turn around Lemmings into the direction they are facing." maybe change to: "...turn Lemmings around in the direction of the Field"? Also, I agree with kaywhyn that the converse behaviour should be mentioned (if not demonstrated?) i.e. that lemmings walking through from the other side will keep walking.
Also, forgive my ignorance, but in clear physics mode, is it possible to see which traps are single-use vs. permanent, or is it just a matter of trial and error?

6: Follow the Arrow: I wonder if this level could use a few more interesting situations for OWW's, especially the new ones, for example it doesn't seem like you need to dig at all to solve the level, except if you're just experimenting...?

7: Set Your Priorities Right: Text doesn't all fit on screen (might just be with my particular key bindings, but I haven't extensively customized them, so presumably many others would see this also)! Also, I can't work out how to select a non-skilled lemming, the middle paragraph currently tells me to press <None> which is less than helpful...

15: Highlights with a Safety Net: This is just my own NeoLemmix incompetence, but right-clicking doesn't highlight a lemming for me, I have to control-click, how does one change this?

Basic Training 1:

5: Steely Halls: Just wondering what the point of this level is? I mean there's nothing wrong with it as a level, but it's a bit less ingenious a puzzle than the previous few, and the lack of introductory text for the first time is a bit disconcerting...

6: Central Fear: I guess this level is also slightly confusing? In that you can solve by going either left or right from the entrance, but the leftward route strangely doesn't ues the disarmer? Otherwise, nice level, I assume the point of it is to make you think strategically about which way blockers are facing, and to use walkers to manipulate this?

9: Deepfreeze: I have to say, I find this level a bit tedious...which might be ok if it weren't so obvious what you have to do.

10: PARKOUR: I love jumpers so much. It does seem really weird to me the way they fall straight down immediately at the end of their jump, rather than continuing the arc - I guess more a question about NeoLemmix than one relevant to this pack though, I presume there was much discussion about this behaviour which I have not seen.

11: The Guardian: Super Fun!

Regarding 17: Airdrop Incoming! I should just say that while I didn't find this as hard as mantha seemed to, to a player new to gliders, walkers, and shimmiers (like myself) it definitely isn't immediately obvious how the interaction and the geometry works (similar to my comments on the cloner/walker level in rank 1). Also, if you check my replay, I seem to have solved it without using the gliders in any meaningful way...

Basic Training 2:

1: The Joy of Sorting: This level at first looked super intimidating, and was the reason I put the pack down for a while last time. Once I did play it though, it was apparent that it was not as nasty as it seemed, especially as you gave lots of leeway with the numerous walkers.

2: Hidden Crystalline Temple: I love this tileset, it's so pretty . I have skills left over though? Unless you're just offering some leeway.

4: Sandy Danger: I have to say, I found this level not that interesting...is there a specific point to it?

6: That Little Extra Help: What was the basher for? I didn't end up using it - if you wanted to demonstrate cancelling a basher with a jumper, then is it worth making it essential for the solution? It just didn't occur to me to utilise this. (I see kaywhyn had the same feedback.)

12: Stepblocked: I had to experiment and stare at this level quite a bit before I worked out where to build, and why exactly it stopped the other lemmings. That's not a bad thing though, great level!

13: The Steepest Slope: Last sentence of pretext needs a bit of grammar, maybe: "just remember the pause [/paws] button and frame-stepping!" or "Just remember that you can pause and frame-step!" or even "You might find pausing and frame-stepping very helpful!".

15: Concentrated Force: Was this meant to be such a tricky timing puzzle? (Replay attached)

17: Double Down!: Hilarious! Again cloners break my brain as a player new to them, but the difficulty I feel is not unwelcome at this point in the pack, and the amount of fun it is to figure out is entirely worth it!

19: Really finicky, not in an entirely enjoyable way, but maybe it's a good time to introduce such things, especially as you've paved the way so nicely for one to pretty quickly realise the solution.

Advanced Training: This is where the levels started to get really fun

1: Stepping up to a Higher Level: Very nice puzzle to start off with!

2: Bending Bashers: In the pre-text: "The two builders need to be placed in such a way that the bottom one..." (jinx kaywhyn!)

3: Higher Levels of Wisdom: Instructions slightly confusing, although they made more sense after having solved the level. In particular was a bit unclear about the fencer tunnels not requiring walker cancellation even though the miner ones do. But this is advanced training after all so I guess you don't want to be flat out giving us the answer...

7: Checkerboard Crossing: I'm pretty pleased with this solution, but I seem to have saved 2 more than you specified?

8: Between a Stone and a Hard Place: What is the 2nd floater for? Using one seems like the most economical way to do this trick...

9: Shimmichanga: What is the extra walker for?

14: A Different Kind of Space: Awesome blocker trick! I have to say, took me a long while to figure it out, especially given the lack of intro/hint text. As I mentioned before, obviously you don't want to give everything away at this point in the pack, and of course it follows on directly from the previous level in terms of continuing skills through teleporters, but as it is this level was the first (and only) really annoying roadblock for me. This could just be my idiosyncracy, but maybe it's worth considering adding a very veiled hint as to which direction the solution is in some pre-text?
Also, how's the rest of my solution? I seem to have quite a few skills left over...

15: Welcome to the Crystal Maze!: Last sentence of pre-text should be (?): "This sounds more complicated than it is..." (not "as it is").

19: The Fiddler 2: I found this level really annoying (that's nothing you should worry about though), obviously given the title, it's meant to be fiddly, but the main thing I was missing was that finding the precise basher stroke you stop him on is the key to the puzzle. Maybe it's worth hinting at this a little more specifically? I don't know though, this late in the pack people really should be thinking for themselves, and it didn't stump me for as long as "A Different Kind of Space".

21: Victory Lap: Amazing little puzzle! Maybe some congratulations text would be appropriate?

[kaywhyn]

Hey uber, congrats on finishing the pack for the time being, since it's still being expanded and in development. This was a pack that I forgot to list as a recommendation, and one that I would recommend to anyone, regardless of whether the person is new or not to NL. Some remarks on your feedback:

Objects and Functions 5: Yes, there is! When you cursor over a trap and then activate CPM, it'll say one of two things, trap with an infinity symbol next to it, or the number 1. The former are continuous traps that will continue to kill lemmings, while the latter will activate once and then won't ever work again after that. The interesting thing is that when I read your question about that, I thought there wasn't a way with CPM either, but I never ever noticed the trap label differences in CPM before. Now I know too!

Objects and Functions 7: Do you mean how to select a lemming that currently isn't performing a skill? That would be the Ctrl key. Also, this assumes that you chose the traditional layout when you ran NL for the very first time. If you didn't, you can change it via the F3 key in the main menu. You have 3 choices of layouts. I'm not sure what the keys for the other two are, since I have always used the traditional one.

Objects and Functions 15: See above for Objects and Functions 7. Regarding customizing the keys, I'm not sure how to do that.

BT 1 6: Wow, that's a nice solution going to the left!

BT 1 17: The level's very open-ended, so it's perfectly fine to have plenty of skills leftover. As a matter of fact, it's possible to simply do the level with only one worker lemming!

AT 9: Just for saving time and not have to wait for the worker lemming to turn around. It's optional.

AT 14: Nice, exact same solution as mine! Great minds think alike

Regarding AT 19:

Spoiler

This is where you can try and make some slight adjustments with the first basher so that it works out a bit better. In your replay, you bashed right as the lemming touched the wall. Try bashing a little further away from the wall and see what happens.

All your other feedback I'll let Icho address them. He's more than welcome to expand on some of the comments that I already made on some of the levels above.

[IchoTolot]

Seems like I've got work to do next weekend.

14: A Different Kind of Space:

Well it seems like you both found the same backroute.    I will fix it up and in the process direct the player more into the right direction.

Also, forgive my ignorance, but in clear physics mode, is it possible to see which traps are single-use vs. permanent, or is it just a matter of trial and error?

Yes, it should display it.

But anyway, I'll read through everything when I get to fixing.

[uberwolfie]

Thanks both of you, it's nice to know these things now

AT 14: Swag!

AT 19:

Spoiler

Yes I definitely had to do that as well, otherwise the amount of wall left at the end would either be too little or too much, but what I'm referring to is that I couldn't get the solution to work unless the basher stopped only having struck away the bare minimum of the terrain, i.e. at the very top of his swing. In all other positions, there would not form that pixel step created by the digger needed for the lemmings to make it up, as the digger would have to dig too low, and create a too-high wall. Not sure if there is a way to make it work at other points in the basher's stroke; one thing I noticed though is that seemingly if you stop the basher at the lowest point before sweeping away the whole piece of wall, turning him into a blocker consistently fails to turn around the lemmings coming up close behind him, although presumably this depends on the exact distance, I just noticed it more in this part of the stroke than others. Like you say, Icho, it sure is fiddly!

[kaywhyn]

Ah, I see. It depends on how thick the wall is to begin with. If it's not as high, then other basher cancelling positions will work too. Both the least amount of terrain removed and the next stroke after that will both work. The one absolute must is that the basher has to be interrupted midstroke. If it completes the entire stroke, therefore leaving a vertical strip of wall, then there's no step for the lemmings to be able to step up, and so they'll simply turn around when they hit the wall. You can easily test this on Tame 1 of ONML. Have a climber dig down the first brick wall when it gets to the top, then bash so that a lemming who bashes the wall at ground level only a bit of ceiling will be left above him. Then you'll see other basher positions will still work for lemmings to step up when it is interrupted midstroke.

[IchoTolot]

V 0.19 is out!

Added a logo and rank signs made by zanzindorf!

Backroute fixes based on the replays by kaywhyn and uberwolfie:

1 05 (Thinner platforms at the start)

2 11 (Added an acid pit)
2 15 (removed a chain, added a flamer)

3 06 (added a terrain ramp so that the trap is reachable from both sides)
3 16 (-1 builder, -1 platformer, added saws to make acutally using the updraft more appealing)

4 06 (-1 basher)

5 07 (adusted the whole solution, +1 save requirement, the glider is now a pick-up, switched up the other pick-ups)
5 14 (-1 walker, the other walker is now a pick-up, -1 save requirement)
5 16 (removed the overhangs inside the structures)
5 21 (lowered the starting ramp by 4 pixels)

Also, a ton of pre-text changes!

Some comments:

Leftover skills are often 100% intended here simply to give leeway or allow an alternative route. Not always though.

Highliting a lemming is really just the right-click for me and I am not familar with a setting that requires control as well. Maybe you need to ask namida there and inform me if there is indeed such a setting.

There are quite often more interesting scenarios to certain behaviors, but quite often those are also reaching either above the scope of the lesson or are dangerously close to redundancy.

Beginning with Basic Training there are levels without text that serve just as training with no new lessons. Repetition is key to learning! Also here levels can start to be a bit more precise in terms of placement and timing. This is a part of many custom levels and I want to force the player at least a few times to rely on this.

[kaywhyn]

Wow, I'm really digging the new logo and rank signs! Nice job, zanzindorf!

[IchoTolot]

If there is nothing else to point out I will soon prepare a 1.0 version then. Yes, if there is another skill/object coming it will still need some changes, but other than that it should be good to go.