Debate: Digger-Blocker trick

[Crane]

This has given me some grief lately because this is a trick that's apparently known within the community for 15 years, but which I only discovered recently after being shown it as a backroute to my level.  And that is a Digger-Blocker trick, also known as the Wild 15 Glitch.

I'll do my best to explain it in words... you start with a digger facing right... at some point another lemming enters the tunnel and is turned into a blocker on the right side of the digger... the blocker is released a split second later due to the ground from under his feet being removed, but the digger, having been inside the blocker's field of effect, is now facing left.

This trick, while its internal logic is sound, I feel is very counter-intuitive and is very unlikely going to be discovered by a player independently except maybe by complete accident.  My reasoning is as follows:

• The Blocker is immediately released with no other apparent effect, so it initially looks like a waste of a skill
• Unlike the interaction of Builders and Miners with Blockers, there is no visual indication that anything has changed with the Digger
• Builder/Blocker and Miner/Blocker interactions are something you might discover by accident during the playing of the original games (e.g. Tricky 24), and you can immediately see their effects, and then you're properly introduced to the trick of "reflecting" Builders in Mayhem 5
• The Digger-Blocker trick is very hard to pull off in the original games because of the timing and the fact you're much more likely to select the Digger instead
• Using Blockers in such close proximity to other Lemmings in the original games tends to be unreliable because of the coarseness of trigger areas (technical limitation), so the trick may not always work

The big thing that gets me is the lack of immediate visual feedback and it being hidden by another event (the Blocker being released), which to me feels very unfriendly from a UI perspective.  I personally really don't like the way that the digger is turned around by a blocker like that because the lack of visual feedback, as well as the large leap in logic required to try such a trick, is very counter-intuitive in my opinion.  And maybe this is selfish of me, but the revelation of the trick has broken a number of my levels that use the traditional eight skills, and to be told to use Stoners instead or not use Blockers because they're rare in Mayhem (wrong... 19 of the Mayhem levels have Blockers, and in levels like 5, 20 and 29, their use is fundamental to the solution) just feels like it's avoiding the issue and eschewing a traditional skill for a new creation.

I feel like that if a level is broken by this trick and it's shown in walkthrough videos by experts if a novice gets stumped on a level, they will feel somewhat irritated because there's likely no way they would have thought to try that even after 10 years of thought.  I would much rather the Digger is unaffected and be an exception to the rule for the sake of user-friendliness, especially as the Digger is going straight down and shouldn't be affected by direction in the interim, except for when they finish (or given another skill).

Now I know that there are levels out there that require the trick to solve it, and the internal logic behind the trick is perfectly within the physics rules of NeoLemmix, so there are arguments for keeping the behaviour.  I will, however, offer a compromise, and this goes for all advanced tricks:

• If you can introduce the trick within the confines and mechanics of a single level, with no text hints, and have a relative novice (who doesn't know the trick) be able to solve it, then I will accept the trick as acceptable.

I suppose I should define "a relative novice" as someone who can get through Mayhem, or at least most of the original game, so they're introduced to levels like "Compression Method 1" that introduces the quirk of traps only killing a single lemming, and "No added colours or Lemmings" that properly introduce Blocker undermining.

[namida]

So my thought is - as you say, it's a completely expected result of how diggers and blockers usually work. As another example - fallers and floaters can be affected by blockers, yet they move downwards. (On a technical level, ohnoers can too, although in practice this makes no difference as far as I'm aware, except what the mouse will look like when you mouse-over them using directional select.) There is a visual difference - fallers and floaters do not have symmetrical sprites - but no difference in their direction of movement. Overall, I don't personally feel a change is needed to the physics.

On the other hand, I agree with you 100% in regards to the visibility of this - that is a problem that needs to be addressed. If I'm not mistaken, even clear physics mode does not currently show you which way a digger is facing - I think addressing that is the bare minimum that should be done here. More ideally, a less-symmetrical sprite for diggers (and other skills with currently near-symmetrical graphics) would be ideal - even without this trick existing, it's useful to know at a quick glance which way such a lemming is facing. I don't know that I have the patience or skills to make such a sprite though, although I'd be more than happy to use one that someone else creates.

One issue I see with your standard of defining an acceptable trick, is that it in turn invites the question of "what's considered a trick" (versus just what's considered well-hidden and/or use of multiple skills, but not a trick)? While it's easy to think of examples that quite clearly go one way or another, there's no doubt also a lot of middle ground that isn't quite clear - eg, does building a zig-zag staircase, like one might do near the end of Fun 29, a "trick", or is it just "using builders"? If we make the definition too wide, doesn't that essentially just boil down to "all levels should be solvable by someone who can complete Mayhem", in a sense?

[Crane]

I would personally consider Fun 29 as just "using builders" since it's obvious you can't go straight up, but you're almost certain to know by then that a builder will stop and turn around when hitting a wall, so you can then start building the other way.  If anything, you'll probably be doing that when you first play Fun 7, the level that introduces Builders.

Blockers turning fallers and Floaters is an interesting one.  It's a slight leap in logic, but the effect is still relatively immediate because you can see that the lemming has turned if you look carefully, and they'll end up walking the opposite direction when they land a second later.  It doesn't require any other interaction from the player.  Also, there is a level in "Revenge of the Lemmings" that uses the trick, "Food for the gods", I think, which I admit I didn't get, but I can see how the level entices you to look that direction due to how the scenery is laid out... that is a ledge for a Blocker below where the other lemmings gather.  I will admit that that is a debatable one.

I still stand by the request though that any valid 'tricks', which I suppose I should define as using tools in unconventional ways, should be able to be introduced within the confines of a single level - it will require playtesting to determine if this can actually be done.  If such an introduction is near-impossible to pull off, then the trick should probably be disallowed because it delves into the realm of being unfair.  Granted, there are cases in the original games where the jump in difficulty was probably a bit too large - e.g. Postcard from Lemmingland... where the trick is effectively using a Digger and Builder to turn a lemming around.  A simpler set-up earlier on in the game would have been better here.

[ccexplore]

While the behavior "makes sense" in light of other behaviors (and especially with how NeoLemmix handles blockers compared to original game), I have always thought it wasn't quite as clear-cut as others might have made it.  One could imagine an alternative where lemmings which actually changed position horizontally would be affected by blocker.  Clearly that's not the case even in the original game, since even fallers feel the effect of blockers, but the point is that one can come up with alternative physics where blocker can affect lemmings in a general manner but not universally for any state of lemming.  Then again, the result looks very odd even in the original for climbers--climbing on a one-pixel thin vertical column, the climber will literally flip to the other side when turned around by a blocker, which technically makes total sense given the details of how climber is positioned and so forth, but will almost certainly surprise anyone who've seen it first time.

It is somewhat unfortunate that digger is one of few skills where currently you can't visually tell the facing direction, but that's kind of a problem independent of the behavior at hand.  Moreover, once the digger finishes digging you can usually tell if it was facing the direction you were expecting or not, so if you actually have managed to trigger the behavior before, it shouldn't be that easy to miss.  Instead, it is more likely that a player may simply have never encountered this behavior at all since it's rare to run into it by accident versus intentionally make it happen, and the latter is probably not very likely if you never played a level that requires it.  And with any advanced trick, there is always the effect that it could take very long for some player to discover or work it out on their own.  That is not really unique to this particular trick.

For the record, when I originally found use for it in Wild 15 challenges, IIRC I think I actually hit it by accident rather than intentionally knew it works.  Memory is hazy now but I think it was originally the result of setting a blocker close to a digger, not so much to purposely turn around the digger as merely to change the timing of the lemming that was blocker without spending any additional skills to free it (since we already have the digger that I'm already using for other purposes).  Or maybe it was actually an accident and I never even planned to set blocker that close to digger.  Either way, the behavior was observed, from which point a way to actually exploit it for Wild 15 challenges followed quickly.

[namida]

Then again, the result looks very odd even in the original for climbers--climbing on a one-pixel thin vertical column, the climber will literally flip to the other side when turned around by a blocker, which technically makes total sense given the details of how climber is positioned and so forth, but will almost certainly surprise anyone who've seen it first time.

This actually gives a good precedent - because in NeoLemmix, the decision was made that no, this pass-through-wall behaviour should not happen, and a climber who gets turned around by a blocker now behaves much the same way as a climber who hits his head (which was pretty much the only result that does make sense - there's no real way for the climber to "turn around" as such, except by falling back down; the only possible alternative was "the blocker doesn't affect him").

[Crane]

For me, the decider is a player thinking to try the trick and deliberately set it up rather than run into it by accident.  The issue with Blockers causing Diggers to change direction is compounded by the fact that the digger may not always fall through a ceiling below, but instead hit a steel plate or be in a situation where the direction it turns is not relevant or even noticeable (e.g. because there are other lemmings in the Digger's tunnel).

I'm worried my reasons are selfish and I'm still surprised it caused such a reaction in me.  I just personally really don't like it because of the counter-intuitive nature, the lack of visual cues and also that the effect doesn't usually become apparent until you assign another skill to the Digger.

But as I said, if someone is able to make an introductory level for the trick and have it playtested by someone who doesn't know the trick (not sure how one would do this since we're being so open about it now), then I will relent.  Still not happy though!  True, it doesn't affect "Lemming pattern baldness" that much, but it truly breaks some of my other levels.

[Turrican]

I just personally really don't like it because of the counter-intuitive nature, the lack of visual cues and also that the effect doesn't usually become apparent until you assign another skill to the Digger.

But as I said, if someone is able to make an introductory level for the trick and have it playtested by someone who doesn't know the trick (not sure how one would do this since we're being so open about it now), then I will relent.

There is a way when you perform this trick to instantly know if it has succeeded. When you perform the trick  then instantly select the basher skill and highlight with the cursor the digger ( without clicking it of course ) . Neolemmix will instantly project the bashers tunnel ,  so you will instantly see the direction of the tunnel, and you will instantly know if the trick has succeeded , so when you make the digger a basher afterwards , it will bash to the direction you want !

And also a good idea for an introductory level could be something like this :

Level should have 2 lemmings and 100% save requirement. It should have only 1 digger , 1 basher , 1 blocker and release rate 1 locked. It could consist of a very tall and a very thick shape ( so the player has to assign the first lemming as a digger instantly at the beginning ) . Below that thin shape it should have water for example . Exit should be at the bottom of that tall shape but in the opposite direction ( to the left ) . In this case both lemmings are in the diggers tunnel . the player can't just assign the digger as a basher ( because both lemmings will fall into the water ) . He can't let the digger just complete its digging ( because both lemmings again will fall into the water ) . His only option will be to experiment with the blocker and discover this trick.

And to avoid any other digger - blocker combinations at the beginning of the level , the level could have the two lemmings begin from a different hatch each other. The hatch for the first lemming would be directly on the top of the tall thin shape I mentioned , so the player would need to instantly assign it as a digger , and the second lemming would begin from another hatch that's on the left , in a much bigger height , it would land in a small platform in the air for example , and then it would land instantly at the diggers tunnel.

[IchoTolot]

Possible idea for visualization through the digger animation:

Let the digger look towards the side he is turned to for a frame period inside the animation. Currently he only looks down and a simple turning of the head towards the side he is facing could be a solution.

[Proxima]

So, a few thoughts I have on this debate.

For an intro level featuring the trick, there is "Turnabout Sisters" from Contest #15. It would be tricky to find someone to show it to -- it would have to be someone who's played the game enough to know what the skills do -- or has never played the game before and is willing to play through introductory levels first. If I get the chance, I will try the experiment and report on how it goes.

I'm a little invested in this, since I have at least two levels that would be affected if the trick were removed. "Rhapsody in Blue" could possibly be fixed by making the blocks on the left edge of the wall steel again -- I forget why I changed them to non-steel, but it was probably to fix some other backroute. This change could result in the level having to drop a difficulty category, but that's okay. "Path of Wickedness" is more open-ended, and even though my solution does use the trick, there are others that don't.

In any case I certainly don't have the attitude that my levels must be preserved at all costs. I already had to compromise with several of my intended solutions when variable spawn interval and interrupted basher step were removed -- both far more significant changes than this one -- and we found changes that worked and saved the levels. ("Halfway Down the Stairs" even ended up as a much better level for the changes, though that was more or less by accident.)

* * *

So, we can ignore my own levels because that's basically a non-issue. The next thing I want to discuss is tricks in general, and that has been debated before, e.g. Levels relying on tricks.

The first time I played Lemmings, there were several levels where I got stuck because I needed to know a trick. Sometimes, as with "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "I have a cunning plan", I actually solved the level without the intended trick, and only learned the intended solution much later through discussing those levels on this forum. Sometimes, as with "Compression Method 1" and "No added colours or lemmings", I figured out the intended trick and solved the level.

Either way, I wouldn't say that the feeling of being stuck was a bad thing. As I said in the topic I just linked: The initial frustration feeds into the feeling of immense satisfaction when you spot the trick and solve the level. That feeling of satisfaction when something "clicks" is the main reason why puzzle games are enjoyable.

I can report similar experiences with custom levels and harder tricks. "Attack of the Subconscious" (or its Lix equivalent, "A Matter of Perspective"). "Bipolar Maniac"/"Top Shelf". "Don't Catch Me If You Can". Each of these is centred around a single trick and can't be solved until you spot that trick. Each of these had me stumped for a long while, and was very satisfying when I solved them.

Of course, I'm just speaking from my experience here, and I accept that some players may find these particular levels, or other levels relying on certain tricks, so frustrating that there was no satisfaction, only a sense of relief at finally being past them. That's why I agree with the overall sentiment of another recent topic, What we lack and need the most, that NL would greatly benefit from more content at an easy-to-medium range so that there's something for everyone. But I want to see us as a community add easier content without taking away or watering down the difficult content that exists, so that everyone (including me, since I consider myself to be only a couple of notches above "novice" level) can have something to aspire to and the satisfaction of eventually -- maybe after years -- overcoming something that initially seemed unapproachable. I especially don't want us to go down the route suggested by Strato, where tricks can only be used if they are taught in pre-level text. Sometimes, pre-level text may be appropriate; but too often it spoils the experience of a level by giving away what is meant to be a puzzle.

* * *

Finally, let's talk specifically about the digger/blocker trick. I don't have strong feelings about whether the game mechanics would be better overall if this were kept or removed. I'll leave that up to the NL and Lix developers and accept whatever they decide.

For the question of whether the trick is discoverable by new players, that depends on several factors. One is having a "snag" -- a level one wants to solve that seemingly can't be done, so that the player is encouraged to experiement. (One reason why most of us learned this trick from discussion rather than ever figuring it out ourselves was simply that there was no level requiring it -- it arose from a challenge, and only a small subset of the forum were actively engaged in investigating challenges.)

Supposing the new player is confronted with a level with a snag, is it impossible they would think of trying out this trick to see whether it works? I don't think so. Anecdotal evidence suggests that for every trick, some players happen to think of it quickly and others don't -- I've already given the example of "I have a cunning plan", where some players thought up the 3-builder wall the first time they got that far when playing the original game, while I didn't think of this trick until I read about it on the forum, long after I'd finished original Lemmings. That doesn't mean I'm stupid -- it means that my mind, looking through the space of possible actions for something that would solve the level, took a route that happened to pass far from the intended trick; and since I happened to hit something else that worked, I had no incentive to keep playing the level looking for other solutions.

The hypothetical new player might already know, from other levels, that blockers turn builders and miners, so it's not much of a stretch to guess that they might turn diggers as well, and try it out to see whether it works. Sure, I'm saying that with the benefit of hindsight, even though I know that I personally didn't think of this until I read about it. I don't know, and can never know, what my experience would have been if I'd ever been faced with a level requiring this trick before I knew about it.

I do agree that it's a good idea to have a visual indicator of which way a digger is facing, and not just with respect to this trick -- sometimes it's obvious from context which direction a digger must be facing, but there are certainly times when it's helpful to know.

[IchoTolot]

I feel very strongly for keeping the trick as it is just the result of skills behaving as they are intended. Also I really felt this was natural during all my time here and it did not seem weird to me at any point, as a result I incorperated the trick on quite a few occasions which I did not actively kept track on as it again felt not weird to me.

Blockers turn Lemmings, no exception should be made for diggers when builders, miners, bashers....etc are all affected by them as well. That just doesn't make any sense and it would make the game inconsistent with extra special rules. I was able to discover the trick naturally back in the days playing Revenge of the Lemmings on Lemmini.

I am for a better visualization though as I proposed here:

Possible idea for visualization through the digger animation:

Let the digger look towards the side he is turned to for a frame period inside the animation. Currently he only looks down and a simple turning of the head towards the side he is facing could be a solution.

[Strato Incendus]

How is this currently being handled for blockers, anyway? When a lemming is a blocker and shaking his head back and forth, you can't see either in which direction he will be facing once he's freed again by a walker / terrain removal etc.

Couldn't we simply place a red arrow above or below the digger in true-physics mode, like with the hatches?

[namida]

I would argue that we should try to make the blocker's direction more visible too. But a clear physics mode arrow is a good interim solution until we have suitable graphics.

[ccexplore]

How is this currently being handled for blockers, anyway?

Good catch.  I think this one even happens in Lix as well, though I haven't played Lix in a while so I might've remembered wrong.  (For diggers, I believe you can tell direction in Lix based on the direction of the "floor sweeping" animation unique to Lix.  Granted, it's still perhaps more subtle than telling the direction for most other skill types.)

The most obvious way, although it probably will look a little weird to some until getting used to, is just to not let the blocker shake his head back and forth.  Have it stare constantly into the direction they were facing.

[ccexplore]

Just occurred to me, a more subtle (and therefore less visually problematic) way may be based on which feet the blocker is tapping.  Actually, maybe that already works today?  I don't remember this specific detail clearly enough.

[namida]

Just occurred to me, a more subtle (and therefore less visually problematic) way may be based on which feet the blocker is tapping.  Actually, maybe that already works today?  I don't remember this specific detail clearly enough.

At least in NL, this is not true - it's always the foot on the right from the player's point of view. This part could very, VERY easily be changed though.

In regards to not shaking the head - that sounds reasonable. Perhaps even have him shake it, but only go as far as looking towards the player, rather than a full 180 degrees.