Lemmings Plus Alpha - Release topic [V12.03 update]

[Akseli]

Hey, I started to play this pack and solved the first two ratings except Decimation 11: Caving Under Pressure and Decimation 15: The Longest Minute. I haven't looked at any of the hints yet or the Obliteration rating.

Comments (contain spoilers):

Spoiler

Mutilation 4: Jump Scene - Basher saved. Also this is clearly the easiest level in the pack.
Mutilation 14: Started From The Bottom - Climber and bomber saved.

Decimation 3: Lemming Semantics - A nice map, solved immediately though, so should be in the first half of Mutilation probably.
Decimation 4: Oh Blast... - Same here, though again this nice trick of yours from Dead is the New Black and Odyssey.

Decimation levels 1, 3, 4 and 6 are solved as fast as Mutilation levels, so there's no apparent difficulty gap there in my opinion. Mutilation has a nice difficulty curve, though especially levels 13 and 15 are harder than this first half of Decimation, probably on purpose.

Decimation 8: Mission: Difficult - The good old stepover turnaround saved me after trying the super annoying pixel precise fatal fall for non-glider climber, grr!
Decimation 10: Across The Sky - I didn't use cloners (for other than reaching the save requirement).
Decimation 12: A Lot Of Lemming Going On Here - Floater and extra lemming saved.

My solutions for both Decimation 11: Caving Under Pressure and Decimation 15: The Longest Minute fail by single pixel or frame, even in different attempts, so I'm now quite worn out by these two...

[namida]

Comment / solution feedback

Mutilation 1 to 5 - All intended. Re: Mutilation 4 "Jump Scene", the extra basher is just there as a decoy.
Mutilation 6 "Lemming Rotation Club" - A bit different to how I did it, but definitely acceptable.
Mutilation 7 "Rockroll" - A known alternate solution; I nearly treated this as a backroute when I first saw it but then realised the most important trick is still used, just in a different place.
Mutilation 8 to 9 - Both intended.
Mutilation 10 "Twisted Track" - Not sure how I feel about this one. Technically, it has the important elements of the intended solution, but it just feels too simple, I don't know.
Mutilation 11 to 13 - All intended.
Mutilation 14 "Started From The Bottom" - Hm, this one I'm not too sure about. But this level has also been more of a pain than I feel it's worth backroute-wise, it isn't a particularly great level even without backroutes...
Mutilation 15 "Snow Place Like Home" - Intended solution.

Decimation 1 "Mastery of Malice" - Very borderline, but I think it's acceptable.
Decimation 2 "The Winning Edge" - Okay, this one is a definite backroute.
Decimation 3 "Lemming Semantics" - Hm, this level already got moved back quite a bit from its original position - to be fair though, it's also a lot easier than its original incarnation (which had to be heavily changed due to backroutes). Intended solution, by the way.
Decimation 4 "Oh Blast..." - Intended solution. I actually intended to use this variant of this trick originally in the Lemmings Plus IV level "Comradical!", but getting the timing to work well enough to enforce the trick would've required everything else to be pretty much pixel-perfect, so that was scrapped in the end - the stoner in the skillset is a remnant of this.
Decimation 5 "Levelly McLevelface" - Intended solution. Though I wonder why everyone bombs in that spot - to me it feels much tidier to bomb on the flat bit just slightly before where you bombed. :/ (Of course, this makes no practical difference to the solution, so is not in any way a backroute.)
Decimation 6 "Baby Steps" - Intended solution. I have to wonder, with how quickly you say you solved it, if something about this level is especially easy for you (eg. have you used similar tricks in your levels a lot?) I wouldn't think this is a very easy level overall, I actually consider it one of the harder Decimation levels.
Decimation 7 "Expedition" - There's no intended solution here, it's an "anything that works is valid" level (as you probably guessed), but nice solution!
Decimation 8 "Mission: Difficult" - Well, that makes four different known solutions for this level now - and I feel this one is acceptable too.
Decimation 9 "Return to Gemland" - Intended solution.
Decimation 10 "Across The Sky" - So, this was originally a late-Obliteration level (the original solution still works), but was removed at a very late stage due to backroutes. It was brought back at an even later stage after one tester pointed out "even with the backroutes, it's still a fairly hard level, just not late-Obliteration hard". So there isn't really a single intended solution for this one. But I also feel this solution is maybe too easy... hm...
Decimation 12 "A Lot Of Lemming Going On Here" - This one was one of the biggest offenders for backroutes during testing, so I can't say I'm super surprised another one has popped up.
Decimation 13 "Offer Void In Lemmingland" - Intended solution.
Decimation 14 "Bricks Are Heavy" - Intended solution.

Regarding Decimation 11 and 15, without an attempt replay I can't really comment on what (if anything) can be done to either make your solutions work, or more clearly block them, as appropriate.

[Akseli]

Here's attempt solutions for Decimation 11 and 15, also I solved three first Obliteration levels. I'm utilising the new attachment restrictions here.

Spoiler

Decimation 11: Caving Under Pressure -  My approach is brute-forceish so I really think there's another route which is intended. I didn't work on my way with the crowd control yet before finding the correct digger-builder placement for the blocker release in that mound (I tried it from the both sides of the blocker, both the worker lemming and a crowd lemming, both digger facing at the blocker or away from blocker).
Decimation 15: The Longest Minute - This is a failure by one frame, that one guy eagerly goes to the void. I'd think that my skill placements are correct. I also did this level so that the last entering lemming was already hopping to the exit but the timer went to zero.
Obliteration 1: A Severe Case of Lemmingitis - A breather here, a really straightforward level.
Obliteration 2: Good Lemmings Die Young - A good and well-placed level.
Obliteration 3: Lemming On A Prayer - This one I suspect backrouting.

[Akseli]

Sega set levels are giving me troubles in Obliteration. Here's Obliteration 5-8 attached, they were all great levels!

[namida]

Regarding the attempt replays. Notes under this tag will only give an integer number from 1 to 5 of how close I feel your solution is overall to either the intended solution, or a known and accepted alternate solution - with "5" hypothetically representing "actually solved it".

Decimation 11 "Caving Under Pressure" - 3/5.
Decimation 15 "The Longest Minute" - 4/5.

Attempt replays - here, I'll confirm which parts of your solutions are correct, and give notes on possible changes.

Decimation 11 "Caving Under Pressure" - The left half of the level, is quite far off - though you are correct in going down, rather than right, at the start. The right half of the level is spot on. I don't know how possible it is to clearly block what you're trying here, if I can think of a way I'll do so.
Decimation 15 "The Longest Minute" - You've got almost everything correct here. There is one detail you're missing on the platform above where the crowd gets trapped, which in turn makes quite a difference on the right half of the level. On a side note, I think your attempt may have exposed a possible backroute, as well as a way to cut 1 builder out from the intended solution - which in turn should make your route more clearly not viable.

I'll get back to you on the solved replays a little bit later.

[namida]

Solved levels feedback

Obliteration 1 "A Severe Case Of Lemmingitis" - Hm, I originally had this level as the first level of Decimation, but got feedback it was a bit hard for that position - but you're also not the first person to say it's a bit easy for Oblieration 1. The problem is - I really think the Can-Can music fits it well, so to me, it needs to be one or the other... and I think this was a more accurate choice. Intended solution, by the way.
Obliteration 2 "Good Lemmings Die Young" - Intended solution.
Obliteration 3 "Lemming On A Prayer" - Yep, backroute indeed. This level was another major problem one during testing too.
Obliteration 5 "Blessed By A Curse" - Hm... this is a very minor backroute. It might be better to leave it in, as the only way I can see to fix it, is by increasing the save requirement to 28 (which is shown to be possible due to one element of your solution), but that would be really fiddly...
Obliteration 6 "Lemmingz 4 Now" - Intended solution.
Obliteration 7 "What Icehole Made This?" - Intended solution.
Obliteration 8 "Lemmings And Lemming Accessories" - Intended solution.

[Akseli]

The pack is getting tough now! I haven't read the hints yet, except for the levels I've solved.

Spoilery comments:

Spoiler

Obliteration 4: White Noise - I am not even close on this one yet. I thought my best attempt was crossing the digger and basher but I don't have the means to turn the worker lemming around at the right side of the level to build a bridge over the water for the crowd.
Obliteration 9: Aquadynamics - Skipped at first and solved after Obliteration 10-12, when I realized that I could actually take both lemmings over the one-way wall at the right.
Obliteration 10: Dirty Joke - The one-way stacker was the key element in the middle of the level.
Obliteration 11: Bending the Rules - This is most probably a backroute.
Obliteration 12: The Golden Rule of Lem - A ferocious looking level, but really fun to play! It's always a good feeling when one plays a level that seems huge but it turns out to be a lot more accessible than one would think at first.

[namida]

Feedback on the new solutions

Obliteration 9 "Aquadynamics" - Backroute... can't believe I didn't catch this one. Should be an easy fix, though.
Obliteration 10 "Dirty Joke" - Not quite the intended way, but you've got the one-way stacker, at least one use of "use a stacker to release the crowd from another stacker", and the correct approach to get past the cross near the start, so I'd consider this acceptable overall. The main difference from the intended route, is how you handled the fatal fall.
Obliteration 11 "Bending The Rules" - Yep, that's a backroute alright. Shouldn't be too hard to fix though - just need to get rid of that pesky gap you used to stop the miner.
Obliteration 12 "The Golden Rule Of Lem" - This one is an "if it works and isn't too easy, it's acceptable" level, and your solution is fine. Your solution is close to mine in some parts, but very different in others (in particular the start and end - the middle is fairly similar).

[namida]

Took long enough since my recent focus has been on a different project, but I've finally made a V12.03 update for this.

Backroute fixes in the following levels:
- Mutilation 10 "Twisted Track"
- Mutilation 14 "Started From The Bottom"
- Decimation 2 "The Winning Edge"
- Decimation 10 "Across The Sky"
- Decimation 13 "A Lot Of Lemming Going On Here"
- Obliteration 3 "Lemming On A Prayer"
- Obliteration 9 "Aquadynamics"
- Obliteration 11 "Bending The Rules"

Replays have been updated as well where applicable. All intended solution replays have been checked in both V12.4.1 and exp-V12.6.0, and all work in both versions. I haven't re-tested the alternate solution replays in either version though.

In line with my usual plan of eventually getting packs into a "final" state without further fixes, all levels up to and including Decimation 10 will receive no further backroute fixes (of course, they'll still get compatibility fixes if the need arises). Decimation 11 to 15, and all of Obliteration, might still receive further fixes if need be.

[Akseli]

Re-solved some of the updated levels!

Spoiler

Mutilation 10: Twisted Track -  This is somehow a hard level for me. A digger and a blocker saved, so not intended I guess?
Mutilation 14: Started From The Bottom... - Similar than my previous solution, but now I needed to use the bomber.
Decimation 2: The Winning Edge - This feels intended. The structures on the right did matter after all!
Decimation 10: Across The Sky - Okay, now I had to juggle with three of the cloners. One bomber and thus an extra guy saved.
Decimation 12: A Lot Of Lemming Going On Here - My solution barely works, basher+platformer+builder placement is pixel precise in its height, and the time limit is just enough with this crowd cycle. An extra lemming saved.
Obliteration 3: Lemming On A Prayer - Okay, this I had spoiled myself because I solved it already via backroute and then read the hint. :p

[namida]

Re: Akseli new replays

Mutilation 10 "Twisted Track" - Nope, still not intended. The intended solution is a lot tidier than this.
Mutliation 14 "Started From The Bottom" - Yeah, also still not intended.
Decimation 2 "The Winning Edge" - Yep, this one is intended now!
Decimation 10 "Across The Sky" - I would consider this one acceptable.

As mentioned above, I'm not going to make further fixes to the early levels, so check out my replays (linked in the first post) if you want to see the intended solutions. Now, for the ones that might still get fixes...

Decimation 12 "A Lot Of Lemming Going On Here" - Not intended still. A bit closer, though - the way you made the path is only very slightly different from intended; mostly it's the crowd control that's the backroute.
Obliteration 3 "Lemming On A Prayer" - This one is intended now.

[namida]

I want to add some Lemmings Plus Alpha levels to Lemmings Plus Compressed in the next update. I'm thinking about 5 levels is good, but which ones?

Possible candidates IMO (but feel free to suggest others):
- Mutilation 1 "Keep Your Lemmings Close"
- Mutilation 13 "Mini Mayhem"
- Mutilation 15 "Snow Place Like Home"
- Decimation 2 "The Winning Edge"
- Decimation 13 "Offer Void In Lemmingland"
- Decimation 15 "The Longest Minute"
- Obliteration 9 "Aquadynamics"
- Obliteration 13 "The Troublesome Trio Go To Hell"
- Obliteration 14 "Wasted Talent"

[namida]

Closing this topic now. All future discussion about Lemmings Plus Alpha belongs in the Lemmings Plus series topic.