Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)

[grams88]

Hi IchoTolot

Thanks for giving the pack and go and comments.

Have you got a replay for the 4 19 one?

[IchoTolot]

Have you got a replay for the 4 19 one?

As I stated:

Spoiler

Before I do any further serious attempts on the level I first want a confirmation that the level is solvable and not indeed unsolvable by accident. I have wasted too many hours (I guess even days by now) on impossible levels in the past.

I just have a suspicion because now 2 attempts fail because of of 1 pixel. I've attached these 2 via replays to this post.

Replay 1 failed because the lem missed a piece of terrain by 1 pixel. The 2nd one because of a bridge being 1 pixel too short.

In any way I HIGHLY recommend you create, store and maintain solving replays to all of your levels as a master library on your machine. This way you will always have easy access to intended solutions and can confirm that all levels are indeed solvable.

[grams88]

Spoiler

I was able to solve the level, it's an interesting one I feel.

[IchoTolot]

Spoiler

I was able to solve the level, it's an interesting one I feel.

Ok, good. That's what I wanted to know.

[IchoTolot]

Solved it now and attached my solution.

Spoiler

Consider moving the left terrain piece that was a problem in one of my replays to the left to better mark that the attempt does not work.

[grams88]

Don't think this is spoiler as such, that's the intended solution IchoTolot, welldone that is a tricky one to find but I kind of like the trick that you sort of have to use in that level.

[Nepster]

Ok, I finally solved 4-19, too. While the solution is very nice, I feel that you really should give players a bit more leeway in placing their skills.

Spoiler

Basically the four skills on the middle platform all have to be placed pixel-precise! And to make it worse: There are dozens of placements that fall short by a single pixel.
Actually I tried this very solution when I first played your pack, but after several failed placements, I decided that this couldn't possibly work. Only after three more hours trying everything else and eliminating all other possibilities, I went back and finally managed to find the correct placement.
Playing and solving this level would have been a lot more fun for me, if I had two or three more pixels to place the first builder on the middle platform and at least one more pixel to place the first miner.

[grams88]

Thanks Nepster

Spoiler

It is an unusual solution and can get a bit annoying when try to build up to that bit, I was hoping that would lead players away from the solution specially being the second last level in all. I think it all comes down to the very first builder, I could be wrong but if you are using the first builder as a stepping stone sort of thing for your next builder. I would be a bit scared to mess around with that to be honest as IchoTolot was mentioning in his last post.

Spoiler

This is to do with the last level, I was kind of wanting to cop;y the thing from the original lemmings by making the last level not as hard as the other ones. I really liked that idea from the original lemmings

[Swerdis]

Hello,

I recently startet playing this level pack and I finished the "Blue Slope" rank today. It's different from the level packs I played so far for the levels are much bigger and the degree of difficulty varies considerably - a little too much for my taste, to be honest.

Some notes:

Levels 6-9: While I appreciate the idea of tutorial levels, I think these levels are damn hard for its kind. In level 7, a lot of precision is necessary while in level 9, I used an advanced trick for crowd control.
Level 11: A complete cakewalk compared to the levels before and after.
Level 12: This one is HARD. I'm quite sure I backrouted it, using a basher-glitch
Level 13: I personally don't belong to the people in this forum that don't like disjoint unions. The concept of this level is pretty nice though I think the four sub-levels could be more varied. There's too much building involved. Also, a time limit would be appropriate here since it would force the player to solve all the parts simultaneously.
Level 14: Easy one and a real builder fest. Levels of this type are a litte overrepresented in the pack so far.
Level 15: One of the best levels in the first rank! I like the name (always important for me), I like the chaotic visual design and I like the way I solved it - though I'm not sure if I did it the intended way. I'm very sure there are multiple solutions possible here.
Level 17: This is the only real puzzle and therefore it's the best level of "Blue Slope" - I agree with others here. Took me a while to find a solution.
Level 19: Much too hard for its position. Many falls are just above or below splat distance and it's almost impossible to estimate them all correctly. It's all try and error.
Level 20: Personally dont' like hidden exits. It's often said, but I believe that a level should give the player all information needed directly from the start (and yes, that's also true for hidden traps).

Now, this may a sound a little negative, but it's definately not true. Everyone has its own artistic handwriting and I like exploring this. And now I'm looking forward to the Red Slope rank.
All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka/playlists

[namida]

Alright so, at the moment I'm pretty stumped on the next level in each of the other two packs I'm playing (SEBLems and Lemmings United), so I figured I'd give a new one a go.

Replays attached for all the levels I've solved so far.

Blue Slope feedback

0101 "Release Rate Practice" - Just to prove a point, I solved this one without changing the release rate. A time limit could avoid this.
0104 "Lost Exit" - The last part is a tad on the tricky side - obviously the exit is easy enough to spot, but having to turn around and make sure no lemmings slip past the miner seems a bit excessive for a level at this point. I'd suggest reducing the save requirement a bit, or putting a wall on the other end so lemmings can't leave that area.
0105 "It's All Downhill From Here" - There's no reason this level needs to be this large.
0106 "Know Where To Bomb" - This one was quite a difficulty spike.
0107 "To Dig Or Not" - And this one even more so. O_O
0108 "Make Sure You Block" - Then, by comparison, this one is pretty easy. Also, this is another one that's way larger than it has any reason to be.
0109 "Building Test" - There's no way around it - this is an utterly awful level. It's also yet another sudden difficulty spike, as any trick used to separate a worker using only builders will always be a fairly advanced trick. But the biggest issue is, once again, this level is ridiculously huge for no reason.
0110 "Treat Earth Well" - The crowd control on this level is nice, but I feel you could remove most of the building a path without this level being any worse off for it.
0111 "Cold Night" - This is fairly easy compared to the others as long as one knows the dig-under-blocker trick, but it's not a bad level otherwise.
0112 "Extremely Tough Level" - ...so, if you recognize it's extremely tough, why not move it to a later rank? It's not a terrible level, although it's a concept that almost every level designer has created some variation of.
0113 "Four Temples" - You could easily cut down on the number of builders in this level. Also, the third temple from the top seems utterly pointless - it's literally just "build up to the top of the wall".
0114 "Knots Landing" - Another long, easy level that's mostly building with a couple of other skills thrown in. From this point on, I will skip such levels, as they're just time consuming without offering any real challenge.
0115 "Blue Palace" - Okay, this one is a MUCH more interesting level! This one is really good - although I would say that it is another one that's a bit of a difficulty spike.
0116 "Pillars Of Earth" - Skipped.
0117 "Strange Place" - This is a pretty decent level! Although I think this might be a backroute.
0118 "Burst Pipe" - Skipped.
0119 "Very Dangerous Trail" - Skipped.
0120 "Search In Snow" - While I'm almost certain this was intended as another "use lots of builders" level, I solved it because I spotted a way to do so without using any builders at all. However, even with this solution, this is still not a very good level - hidden exit (which is pointless in NeoLemmix, as clear physics mode can very quickly reveal it), and huge for no reason.

I'll continue with Red Slope in a bit; though if I find again that I'm skipping more levels than I'm solving, I likely won't go much further than that.

Overall, my opinion is - this pack isn't very good so far, but, you definitely have potential to make a better pack in the future. Don't take this too harshly - I had the same issues with my early packs; I generally don't even acknowledge any of my packs earlier than Lemmings Plus I anymore because they had these same issues - levels being unnecesserially large, builder-y, difficulty all over the place, etc. Even Lemmings Plus I shows this effect to a small extent. It takes time to get good at this. Levels like "Blue Palace" show you do have the ability to make good open-ended levels, while some of your training levels and "Strange Place" show potential for puzzles (for example - the builder training level, while a bad level overall, relies on some clever thinking to seperate a worker - that is a good element; try using ideas like that in levels with less filler). You definitely shouldn't give up on level design - pay attention to the criticism of this pack, and chances are your next one will be much better.

[namida]

Continuing on with Red Slope,

Feedback

0201 "Old 1930s Pipework" - Not a bad level. Unlike the earlier ones, just building everywhere won't work, and the player is forced to be somewhat economical with builders and make use of other skills instead.
0202 "Learn As You Lem" - Quite a big difficulty spike here, but a good level. Although again, there isn't really a need for that much building - or for that matter, for the bash to be that long.
0203 "Tetris Blocks" - I was not able to solve this one. To be clear, this isn't in the sense of "I skipped it because it looked bad" - I just couldn't find a working solution.
0204 "Lemmings vs Spiders" - This level was not very interesting gameplay-wise, and absolutely awful from a visual point of view.
0205 "Think Carefully" - This is a pretty good level!
0206 "No Exit Hoax" - Again, hidden exit levels are both pointless (due to clear physics mode) and annoying.
0207 "Sandy Stairway" - Skipped.
0208 "Be On The Lookout" - Skipped.
0209 "Follow The Fire" - Not a particularly interesting level, and another one that's excessively big for no reason.
0210 "Inspired Level" - Skipped.
0211 "Learn As You Lem 2" - Skipped. One thing I'll point out - since you obviously need to make every lemming a floater anyway, and there's no reason not to do so right away when they spawn, why not just make them spawn as floaters?
0212 "I Have A Dream" - 100%ed without using builders. At this point though, the whole "huge top to bottom, with a few general obstacles along the way but no overall greater picture" concept is getting very worn out. It's one thing to do that once or twice for easier levels; but it's getting really excessive by this point in this pack.
0213 "Lemming Has Crashed" - Skipped.
0214 "Walking Downstairs" - Another large, top-to-bottom, generic obstacles with no overall bigger picture level.
0215 "Pipe Entrance" - Skipped.
0216 "Only One Miner" - Mostly a nice level, but it wouldn't hurt to fill in the gaps in the last part - all they achieve is making the miner annoying.
0217 "Building Down Steps" - So not only is this yet another level like 12 and 14, but it's pretty much just 0214 in a different graphic set - it's the same thing, just build from one platform to the next. There's a small twist in that it's trickier to turn lemmings around when needed - build to the floating rock on the left, block and have the last lemming mine under to release (then make them both floaters) on the right. But I'm not going to actually execute this one, due to it yeah, pretty much just being 0214 again.
0218 "How To Get Down" - This one is a much better level! I might have backrouted it, though.
0219 "Egyptian Curse" - I very nearly skipped this one upon seeing the general layout and the skillset, but then realised what the actual solution was, and that it was actually relatively good. This is a good example of how even if you have good levels, having too many bad ones can negatively impact them!
0220 "Cave Climbing" - Skipped.

So, end of the second rank, and most levels are still general easy ones that are extremely builder-heavy. Sorry to say this, but I am not at all impressed with this pack, and I don't think I will be continuing any further with it. On the other hand, I am definitely interested to see what you create in the future, after taking into account the feedback you've gotten on this pack.

[grams88]

Thanks Namida and Swerdis

A lot levels have been builder heavy in that regards, thanks for your honest feedback. Looking forward to checking out your solutions.

Maybe I might of rushed this pack, sometimes I tend to rush projects which might be a bad thing. The second last level on the blue slope might be one I should of put into the later ranks but I'll probably keep it there for the time being. The tetris block levels seems to be an odd one here in that it is not too builder heavy but more of a puzzle type solution which it does seem to be a one in a blue moon type of thing.

No worries about the honest feedback, I will try to take into account what you are saying for any new projects in the future. I might of found it quite tricky thinking of different solutions without it being too builder heavy, there is one level I really don't like and I was thinking should I include it but I would this one is extremely builder heavy, I was thinking because we have the fast speed feature the builder heavy ones might not be too much of a problem maybe that's why I put more in than was needed. I probably need to cut down on that aspect of it.

I'm hoping the last two ranks won't be too builder heavy, there is one level I know for a fact I'm not proud of.

Don't worry about the honest feedback guys.

[grams88]

Try to compare it to an older pack rather than comparing it to the great packs that are out now, I wanted to be a traditionalist as I wanted to just stick with the way lemmings was in the past except there is one thing I did which was not traditionalist and that was the vertical scrolling, I know we had this in lemmings tribes so I thought I might as well do it that in my one. I thought a lot of the levels on mindlist's website are still very good puzzle wise and look really nice, even though they are older ones.

Try to compare it to my very first pack which was this one.

http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichELEglMZXZlbFBhY2sY4s4FDA/

[grams88]

Is there a shortcut for loading replays quick, I forgot how to do it as I left it for a while.

Sorry for the builder heavy type levels, there are quite a lot in the earlier ranks, hoping it is not as much further on.

[namida]

The shortcut key to load replays is "L", assuming you haven't changed it. This is true for both default hotkey layout choices.

So - you say you want to stick to traditional features. That's fine, you're far from alone in that regard. Although not all of them stick to old features still, there are several creators who have made amazing content using only "classic" features, such as IchoTolot's "Lemmings Reunion", Nepster's "NepsterLems", many one-off levels by Crane, etc.

And I fully understand that, builders make it easy to make huge levels, they also take up a lot of time so they "feel" like you're making a big, hard level. But usually, when you rely too hard on them, what you're actually creating is a big tedious level, not a big hard one. Don't take this too harshly - this is a mistake that almost everyone makes with their early content, and some people still make it sometimes even when they reach a higher level of skill. For example - SEBLems, which is an absolutely amazing pack from the 2nd rank onwards, has a few too many levels of this kind in the 1st rank.

A good way to overcome this is - try to create a pack, not necesserially a big one, it could just be 10 levels or so, while holding yourself to some specific rules that force you to change how you do things. In this case, perhaps set a limit on number of builders - maybe "no more than 4 in any single level, and the average per level across the entire pack must be 2 or less" - and perhaps a similar rule on level size. Think of other ways that such obstacles could be handled - for example, there's a wall lemmings need to get up? Instead of giving some builders, give the player two climbers, a blocker, and a miner. Or if getting up the wall really doesn't need to involve anything but building up, there's no need to prevent other lemmings going up it early, etc - don't even put the wall in the first place; put a ramp instead. There's a gap? Maybe there's a different path that goes around it - or maybe they do build over it, but it's a single small gap that only needs one or two builders. Which brings me to another thing to consider - if you don't have much reason why you need a gap that requires multiple builders to cross, shorten the gap so it only needs one or two. For the purpose of this suggestion, if you have several gaps in a row that require one or two builders each, generally, treat them as one big gap. Of course, there are cases where this suggestion might not quite fit. For an example, see "The Buildo Station", Danger 18 in my pack Lemmings Plus I. This is a level with 25 builders, and players will generally use most, or even all, of them. But due to the nature of how they're used, the level can be completed in under 1 minute - and indeed, it must be, as it has a 1 minute time limit. Another example of a level that's builder-heavy, but still a decent level, is "It's All A Matter Of Timing" from Oh No! More Lemmings! - because how to use those builders is a puzzle itself, it's not just a matter of repeatedly using them in obvious ways until you reach the exit.

Remember - levels do not have to be super long. Many of the most highly-regarded levels are actually quite small - from the official game, for example, the three most highly regarded levels in the original game are Mayhem 3, Mayhem 13 and Mayhem 20, all of which are fairly short levels, with few builders (2 in Mayhem 13, 1 each in the others). To the contrary, the massive, builder-heavy levels like Taxing 14, Mayhem 1 and Mayhem 14 tend to not be nearly as popular. Now don't take this the wrong way - it IS possible to make a huge level that's also very popular, the level that won Level Of The Year 2016 (IchoTolot's "Heroes of Lemkind") was fairly large. However - if you solve, or watch a solution to, this level, you'll notice that there isn't endless building just to clear a single obstacle. It definitely uses builders, but not to create single huge ramps. There are other levels in Lemmings Reunion that do involve creating single large ramps - but usually, one lemming will be doing this, and the real puzzle of the level is keeping the other lemmings busy while he does so.