[NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]

[kaywhyn]

This is the kind of pack where levels cannot be solved very quickly. Due to the high difficulty of the pack, it's definitely not for the faint of heart. It is also expected that one who takes on the pack be able to sit and think through these levels. As Icho has mentioned, and I completely agree with his assessment here, we're seeing that players often give up way too early, whether they're still far away from the solution or are very close. I seem to be one of those players who has a much higher level of patience than most when it comes to solving levels. I have mentioned several times before that I'm willing to get stuck, and stay stuck, for however long it takes on a level. The huge amount of experience I have gained from completing so many level packs over the years has also come in handy for United. The point of this is that any kind of progress you make on a level, whether small or large, helps, and that you keep coming back to the level and keep trying until you succeed.

For the record, it's almost been an entire year since I started playing United. Lots has happened in the meantime: busy working a job, I play other level packs/games in the meantime when I'm terribly stuck on a United level, etc. At the rate this is going, assuming I don't get too terribly stuck on the remaining levels and that not many backroutes remain, it should be about another 3-4 weeks before I'm finally done with the pack. However, as has been said before, I will take my time and take however long it takes. I also don't like skipping around, as I prefer to play levels in order. This means that if I'm stuck on a level, I don't go to any other level ahead in the pack until I solve the one I'm stuck on. In comparison, Reunion took me about 3 months to complete, in large part because of the limited amount of time I had each day due to working a job and how I have a life outside of Lemmings. And that was when I first played it on Lemmini which doesn't have all the player assist tools like framestepping and time skips! Nevertheless, Reunion is by far much easier, in large part because it only uses the classic 8 skills which I'm extremely familiar with. Perhaps I can start playing the NL version of it next, once I finish United, but it's not really a top priority for me since I already finished it once on Lemmini.

[ericderkovits]

I thought maybe you already did reunion on neolemmix since it was an older pack. I also thought you mentioned you thought United was better so I assumed (I guess incorrectly) that you did it already. I have all reunion's replays which I already watched although there not Icho's but they all work as of the current release.  I gathered the latest ones up that work.
although I guess they may vary from his list (which may be nice to have). Also there hasn't been a mention about that pack in a while so I assume that pack has been backrouted fixed already.

But I definately think United has better-looking maps and much cooler Tunes.

Maybe If Icho does another big pack(not sure if he wants to take that much time on one) using the shimmier and jumper.
although I know that there will be a 20th new skill so maybe it would be better to wait on a big pack until that comes out.

Anyway I'm willing to wait till you finish the pack no matter the time as I want backroutes to be taken care of and plus I like having others replays too in addition to Icho's. Maybe when you finish the pack with no other mention of backroutes being fixed, he can P.M. you his list too as it is still nice to have a set because they may differ slightly in your set although your's is still not backrouted.

[IchoTolot]

V 11.3 is out!

Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:

- 4 36 (Removed a mushroom for clarity purposes)

- 5 01 (extended a OWW)
- 5 07 (added a terrain block)

Comments:

War 32 - Eternally Revolving

Totally intended!

Spoiler

The trick has its origins from one of namida's levels though.

Genocide 1 - QUOLA

I just knew I should have extended that OWW!

Genocide 6 - Chanson d'Automne

Let's say the level had quite a few problems back then and at some point I just put a few more traps than the minimum up there.

Genocide 9 - Laboratory Evacuation

A few seconds and permanent skills left over are totally fine here.

Genocide 12 - Stone Cold Crazy

Floaters are optional.

Let's just say with a bit more clever positioning of other skills the digger wouldn't have been so precise.

Genocide 14 - Vortex of Plans

Oh, boy. Let's just say you found the more precise and more timing heavy challenge version.

I was thinking about culling the miner and use your solution, but I think that is overkill.

Spoiler

Normally for the stepping up on the left side part you have an additional basher to spare. This results in less precision and lesstiming. You can release the crowd below with 2 miners then.

Also, you mentioned that you changed the mushroom position slightly on War 36. What I want to know is if we're talking about the same one. In my feedback for the level, the one I was referring to is the slanted mushroom pointing down to the left on the slanted slope in the middle. When I load up the level, it all looks the same to me except maybe for one of the mushrooms in the pond in the middle. That's not the one I was referring to in my feedback. So, which one did you change the position of slightly, the slanted one or the one near the water?

I NEVER would have suspected THAT mushroom to be relevant in a scenario! Removed it, as it was purely decorational.

Maybe If Icho does another big pack(not sure if he wants to take that much time on one) using the shimmier and jumper.
although I know that there will be a 20th new skill so maybe it would be better to wait on a big pack until that comes out.

For now consider the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack as my next big pack.

I do plan another one after that though, but easier or on Reunion's level as it should be a bit of a bridge challenge wise from the Intro Pack to harder stuff.

[kaywhyn]

Nice, only two considered backroutes among the first 14 Genocide levels, with the first one I must resolve once more.

Genocide 14 - Vortex of Plans

Oh, boy. Let's just say you found the more precise and more timing heavy challenge version.

I was thinking about culling the miner and use your solution, but I think that is overkill.

Haha, I was thinking the exact same thing of it being overkill with removing a miner, but since I don't know what's intended and seeing how much struggle I've been through in solving the level, in a way I'm glad to hear that you won't be changing the level some more. I've seen that the level has probably gone through like 10 different versions based on the change logs in the previous pages, which really indicates that this level was indeed a problem child.

Spoiler

Normally for the stepping up on the left side part you have an additional basher to spare. This results in less precision and lesstiming. You can release the crowd below with 2 miners then.

See, I tried this and didn't think it would work because of how 1 builder wasn't enough to get the crowd out or it would seal the gap but then require a basher and a walker to get them out. Guess I'll try that again and see for myself later on.

I thought maybe you already did reunion on neolemmix since it was an older pack. I also thought you mentioned you thought United was better so I assumed (I guess incorrectly) that you did it already. I have all reunion's replays which I already watched although there not Icho's but they all work as of the current release.  I gathered the latest ones up that work.
although I guess they may vary from his list (which may be nice to have). Also there hasn't been a mention about that pack in a while so I assume that pack has been backrouted fixed already.

Nope, I first solved all of Reunion on Lemmini. Since that version is no longer maintained, backroutes do abound. I know a few from the Nightmare ranking have backroutes, including the final level, because I use the stuck climber glitch to solve it. The NL version most likely still have some backroutes, but I'm not certain. From what I have seen so far, United is definitely many times better than Reunion, but nope, I have yet to finish the pack.

That reminds me Icho. How accurate was my assessment when I told eric that you won't be changing any United levels so that jumpers/shimmiers are included since those two skills came long after United was released? I should had let you answer that instead of me.

[IchoTolot]

That reminds me Icho. How accurate was my assessment when I told eric that you won't be changing any United levels so that jumpers/shimmiers are included since those two skills came long after United was released? I should had let you answer that instead of me.

In the normal ranks there won't be jumpers/shimmiers.

In the bonus rank however there are already a few shimmier levels. The bonus rank is the wild card in here where everything goes and I am not very strict about things like skill restrictions. That's one of the reasons why it exists next to allowing my contest and collab levels to shine a bit.

[kaywhyn]

Well, managed to get held back by another roadblock: Genocide 19. So close to the halfway point of the final main rank of the pack! Anyway, I thought would be a good time to once again send some more replays. Here are replays for Genocide 15 through 19, as well as Genocide 1 and 7 resolved, and my two best attempts at Genocide 19. I'm guessing no backroutes in this batch? If so, then it's just the second half that needs to be tended to if there are any after I'm able to get past Genocide 19 and I send them.

Regarding resolved levels:

Spoiler

Genocide 1 - QUOLA How's this now? Surely the falling bomber is the trick that's intended since there's no way to collect the pickups otherwise. Speaking of which, that nearly fails as the basher almost gets caught by the platformer brick but manages to fall through just in the nick of time. So really, same solution as the last time, just need to use the last lemming to bash and then bomb.

Genocide 7 - Braindead Mummys This should be intended. The change kind of made the solution obvious. The only difficult part was figuring out whether it was possible to get up the corridor where the bomber pickup is collected with just one stoner each. I do have a walker leftover, though. I'm guessing that was for turning a lemming at the very beginning around to stone? Then again, it was probably to turn a lemming around in the basher tunnel so as to make the timing easier. Also, if I had substituted the walker in place of a cloner at the beginning, that would mean I would have a cloner leftover instead, but then of course that would make the timing harder in the first basher tunnel.

edit: Actually, no, I wouldn't have a cloner leftover. All that it would do is help me meet the save requirement, and so I wouldn't have any skills leftover.

Now the new replays, as well as an explanation of Genocide 19.

Spoiler

Genocide 15 - The Ancient Curse of Icho'tolot Nice puzzle and much easier than the previous level. That was a really good trick with the stoner at the end to get to the exit. Just realized that I could had done the digging and bashing to the left instead, but in any case my solution doesn't break the level in any way.

Genocide 16 - Regicide This was another great level where it took me a while to see where to place the stacker to contain the right crowd. Once that's determined, the rest of the level is easy.

Genocide 17 - Radience The last of the beast tileset levels in the pack, I believe? This one was another easy level, although I surprisingly got stumped here for a while due to thinking I was always a builder short. The solution actually came to me one night while I was in the restroom, where it occurred to me to bash from the right, block midstroke so the other climber/glider can turn around and mine. Another misspelling in the title, where the correct spelling is "radiance." Also, even though it's not in the level, I kind of hate the weasel trap due to it being difficult to spot and see, but that's a criticism of the tileset, not the level itself.

Genocide 18 - Speak Through the Flower Too easy. Given the skills, it's very easy to see that containing the crowd temporarily is done with a digger pit. The only difficult part is figuring out how to do so given the really high RR.

Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation Still unsolved after almost 3 days. It's really obvious what needs to be done here: The floater needs to get up the left side of the level, while the disarmer needs to get up on the steel platform in the air and the climber needs to get up the level on the right side. In one of my best attempts, I'm a platformer short, while the other one would be a solution if the floater was able to get up on the stack. In the latter, I'm a walker short instead. If I had interrupted the stacker with a walker, then I don't have a way to stop the climber that's mining in the middle of the level. I have tried to see where I could save a walker or a platformer instead, but I haven't been able to. I can possibly see how to save a walker that's used at the very beginning, but I'm convinced that the first walker must be where I used it, as through experimentation it's not possible to platform and get up without interrupting a miner midstroke. Or, rather, it is possible, but the miner going to the left doesn't go all the way through due to the steel block.

So, another example of a one screen level that's deceivingly tough, although the solution itself is not. Rather, the difficulty is the execution, especially on the left side. Of course, since I know you're an author who always saves successful replays (a great practice, I might add), the level has to be possible with the given skillset. The solution will probably come to me eventually, but for the time being, I'm stuck here.

edit: Just solved Genocide 19! Your vague hints were just enough to help me solve it. I appreciate you not giving away the solution in any way. Well, the solution is indeed extremely difficult to spot. Turns out I pretty much had all the skills correctly placed except for the very first digger! I had to adjust the first digger position a couple of times before the platformer and stacker finally worked out. Lots of precise skill assignments in this level! I think ultimately there's still a couple of pixels leeway, but I'm not certain. 

Only 4 5 new levels this time, but I'm getting closer to the end.

[IchoTolot]

V 11.4 is out!

Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:

- 5 18 (added some steel)

- 5 17 (fixed spelling error)

Comments:

Genocide 1 - QUOLA

Spoiler

I let this pass as an alternative solution as it has the falling bomber and further fixes would be tedious. Let's say the near-fail situation comes from your alternative approach.

Genocide 17 - Radience

Totally missed that spelling error.    But I found out it's "Radience" in polish. (at least according to google translate)

Genocide 18 - Speak Through the Flower

That's a huge backroute you found there! Hope the steel eliminates it.

Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation

Spoiler

You are close, but still you are mixing up a few placements and as a result ulimately wasting a skill. Also at one point you are not using the terrain enough. Let's say there is still room for improvement.

Also it's interesting to see how the roadblocks and easier levels are changing up from player to player.

[kaywhyn]

Genocide 17 - Radience

Totally missed that spelling error.    But I found out it's "Radience" in polish. (at least according to google translate)

Google translate detects "radience" as Polish because to it it looks like a word from that language. Since the translation comes back as the same, it's a strong indicator that it's not an actual word. You can pretty much do the same with any random word, where the translator will simply set the language according to what it looks like to it

Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I kind of had the feeling I was being wasteful with my skills somewhere. All rightie, let's see if this is able to steer me towards the correct solution, then.

Also it's interesting to see how the roadblocks and easier levels are changing up from player to player.

Not surprising, since this once again ties back to what I said about difficulty of levels being subjective. Levels that others considered roadblocks for them I might have found easy, and similarly levels I considered roadblocks for me others might had found easy. I think it largely depends on how quickly one can "see" the solution and whether one is in the right mindset at the time. I know a lot of the time for me once I finally do realize the solution for a level I got stuck on I felt quite silly afterwards for having not seen it much earlier and wondered why it was even a roadblock for me in the first place. For Genocide 19, I'll very likely have that reaction once I do solve the level.

edit: And, Genocide 19 solved! Removed the best attempts at Genocide 19 file and added the successful replay to the zip file. Also, see my feedback for the level in the other reply

[IchoTolot]

V 11.5 is out!

Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:

- 5 19 (erased some terrain)

That sadly was not the thing I wanted to see here and as a result lead to more precise assignments than I originally intended.

Also:

Please do not just edit post with new comments and replays! Always make a new post! I just saw this by pure accident. If you just edit things without a new post, there will be quite a risk that I miss it.

[kaywhyn]

Please do not just edit post with new comments and replays! Always make a new post! I just saw this by pure accident. If you just edit things without a new post, there will be quite a risk that I miss it.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll keep this in mind for future reference. I've been aware that the home page only shows the time when the original post was posted and it doesn't update to reflect when an edit was made, and thus that's a major drawback of the site. I guess I thought it looks silly to just make a new post that has only one replay to a level and hence it's better to just edit an existing post, but by making a new post, it draws attention to new replays better. Good point!

[kaywhyn]

First half of Genocide done, plus a level. Only 3 new replays this time, plus Genocide 18 and 19 resolved.

Regarding resolved levels:

Spoiler

Genocide 18 - Speak Through The Flower Nice puzzle and solution! The previous version was definitely a really big backroute.

Genocide 19 - Arctic Oscillation What is it with me overcomplicating solutions when I prefer to make solutions as simple as possible? Guess I'm the master at this lol. Once more too many super precise assignments on my part, where the second digger and fencer had to be placed super precisely and hence I overcomplicated the solution again, but I don't think there's anything that can be done to block my solution and so this should be accepted as an alternative. This is an extremely difficult solution anyway, as I made use of the platformer physics of leaving a hole so that the climber can still get to the right side of the level. The solution also nearly fails with the stacker at the very bottom. One more pixel lower with the digger and the floater would not had been able to get up the wall, although he would still be able to get up the stack thanks to being stopped by the platformer bricks.

Now the new ones.

Spoiler

Genocide 20 - Links 2, Links 2, Links 2 3 4! It was fun seeing the solution in action, although all those poor lemmings that couldn't be saved I managed to save 242, 7 more than the requirement.

Genocide 21 - I Am the End of Fortune Oh gosh, you created a hard for kaywhyn level here: I'm not so good when it comes to using stackers to get up the level, especially since no walkers are provided to interrupt them! Due to this, I nearly made an exception for myself and was probably going to skip this level and come back to it later. I thought this was going to be the level that was finally going to end my run at completing your United pack fully. Indeed, I struggled greatly with this level for the last several days but I managed to solve it two days ago. Compared to the previous level, this is a huge  difficulty spike. I guess that's fitting for the final level in the first half of the Genocide rank.

This level is really hard for many reasons: RR adjustment required so that only two lemmings slip past the first basher/stacker but the second lemming doesn't slip past the second stack, knowing how to release the crowd without destroying the wall and preventing them from getting up or proceeding further in the level, placing the second and third stacks in the right locations and releasing the second worker lemming at the right time so that it is nearly right on top of the first worker lemming when it arrives, bashing with the second lemming after the first one turns around and canceling it midstroke with a digger when the other one digs, placing and timing the builders to seal the gaps so that neither slip through the cracks, and finally stacking with the first worker after it turns around, bashing with the second worker after it gets on top of the stack, bashing and then interrupting it midstroke by stacking so that there's a hole on each side of the first stack so that the crowd so get up it from either side.

Initially, I kept trying to bash to the right first and then stack and then bash with the second worker after it turns around, but the stack will be too high for the lemmings to get up. I then fiddled with the timing of the builders to see if I could get it to work, but it doesn't, so I nearly gave up on the level. It's only when I finally decided to challenge this incorrect assumption and try it the way I described in the last 3 lines of the previous paragraph. I didn't even think this would work but I was very surprised when I saw that it does work.

That being said, I wonder how long it took you to get the design of the level right so that the timing of the two worker lemmings works out the way it does in the solution. Must had taken a while.

Needless to say, I beat the odds and beat a level in a style that I consider difficult for me. In other words, I persevered and didn't give up, even when I was so close to.

Genocide 22 - The Battle of Stirling I really like this one! Much easier than the previous level. I loved the bombing a basher in midstroke trick and the fencing through 3 builders to the ceiling of the level

With this, I don't think there's anymore backroutes in the first half of Genocide, but let's see what you say. If the first half took this long, I can't imagine the second half being any better for me. I know there's still some really difficult ones ahead in the remainder of the Genocide rank. 19 main levels left and then the Bonus rank. Getting really close to the end now!

[IchoTolot]

V 11.6 is out!

Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:

- 5 21 (moved and added some pick-ups, added a OWW)



5 18 is totally intended and 5 19 just a minor variation.

5 20 has a bit of leeway in terms of lemmings you can use so that is perfectly fine.

5 22 is also 100% intended!

But oh boy, you won the price for overcomplicating in 5 21!
That is totally not intended and the route I had in mind only uses minor timing and not such an ammount of RR madness as well - I need to stop this madness here and save you from yourself.
I took away all stackers at the start and also moved some other pick-ups away. Also a nice new OWW should also help.
This level has a clean solution, trust me. There are a few MINOR timing points, but nowhere near as crazy as you did in your replay.

That being said, I wonder how long it took you to get the design of the level right so that the timing of the two worker lemmings works out the way it does in the solution. Must had taken a while.

Yeah, let's just say I didn't need to do that at all.

[kaywhyn]

But oh boy, you won the price for overcomplicating in 5 21!

Oh yea, oh yea, who's the man who's most deserving of the title of solution overcomplicator? Only joking of course, since it's kind of something I'm not too proud of, but thank you for the "prize." Also, since my solution is so much harder than the intended route, that's not really a backroute then, is it? Then again, what's considered or not considered one is subjective, although from what I understand, backroutes are generally much easier than the intended solution. Not always, but most of the time backroute solutions are generally a lot easier.

In any case, I'm simply content with passing levels in any way I can, whether I overcomplicated the solution or not. Like I mentioned previously, I prefer to keep my solutions simple when I'm solving, but it seems I have the bad habit of overcomplicating solutions when I didn't even intend to. As for the designing part, I think I would had left the level alone if I saw a really complicated replay solution such as this, but that's just my personal opinion if I made the level myself. As if I could make a complicated, large level like this.

That is totally not intended and the route I had in mind only uses minor timing and not such an ammount of RR madness as well - I need to stop this madness here and save you from yourself.

Why, thank you. Good to know that you care for my sanity, particularly since I tend to be a grouchy 30-something these days. Well, I was kind of already a grouch long before I reached my 30s. Not when it comes to solving levels in lemmings, just life in general. That's why I always tell people to enjoy being young while it lasts, because you will see that once you reach my age and beyond, things change a lot. I definitely miss being young when I didn't stress out and worry as much and have as much to do as I do now with my super busy adult life.

I took away all stackers at the start and also moved some other pick-ups away. Also a nice new OWW should also help.
This level has a clean solution, trust me. There are a few MINOR timing points, but nowhere near as crazy as you did in your replay.

All rightie, let's see if this is successful in preventing the execution madness seen in my replay when I do come back and resolve it. I will report back on this later. I think it's safe for me to come to the conclusion that if I'm overcomplicating the solution to your levels, I'm very likely doing it wrong and self-inflicting unnecessary pixel precision on my part.

[IchoTolot]

From the complexity side it isn't a backroute - complexity isn't the sole criterium though - it still avoids central tricks and I don't want people to get sucked into this extreme timing idea. That's the main intention of the fix.

Anyway, I think the solution is a tiny bit clearer now.

[Proxima]

A backroute is a solution that's more like bypassing the puzzle than engaging with it (which is of course subjective).

There can be unintended solutions that are desirable to fix for other reasons than being backroutes.