[NeoLemmix] Lemmings United [Difficulty: Hard-Extreme]

[ericderkovits]

RE: Icholotot

if you happen to have Dovelems maso 18(Take a step ahead) and Bonus 1(Pletorah's Temple) replays that would be cool tool.

those 2 I tried to solve just too hard for me. I managed to solve Maso 16 (Complete Auturky) which was broken originally.

all the other replays from Dovelems are Good and all Pimolems replays are good so don't need those.

so just need those 2 replays from Dovelems.

Und Danke fur Alles.

[ericderkovits]

RE: Icholotot
thanks alot now I have all your neolemmix replays, Reunion, United, Pimolems and now Dovelems. also thanks for the pm of the 2 dovelem replays that I were missing. now all i need is the replays when you get around it for World tour legend(minus 39,40) and groupie(minus 40). I have all of yours replays for the other ranks of world tour.

[ericderkovits]

and Kaywhyn it's ok about the replays. take your time. I have all icholotots 11.1 replays even for genecide and bonus which you haven't completed yet. although their certainly will be changes so even the 11.1 ones i have they will change. At least I'm glad someone is working on this pack, so I know that when changes happen I will hopefully get the final versions replays whether from yours or icholotot's. as I stated I'm lousy at solving even slighty medium ones. plus I just don't have the patience to attempt these not only are they extremely difficult but so many levels are long in time. also many maps like you said are huge (ie Neutrality 40 which I couldn't even come close to solving. But I love watching these levels. His maps are gorgeous and his tunes are awesome.

[kaywhyn]

@admins: Please move eric's post above to the Dovelems topic.

@eric FYI, if you want to post/discuss Dovelems, go to https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3242.0 instead. I'm sure Icho would appreciate it if we could limit discussions here to just about the United pack, since that's what this topic is for. Just a way to keep everything in their own discussion topics.

[ericderkovits]

sorry about that Kaywhyn. Here will be only from now on be about united. It's just I'm kinda new at this forum stuff. i transfered it myself by copying it to dovelems and removing it here.

[kaywhyn]

No worries, eric. At least you're slowly becoming familiar with everything here on the site. You're good, man. Nothing wrong with your posts at all, some are just not in the right place/topic. I myself certainly wouldn't want different level pack discussions to be mixed up in a thread that's supposed to be about United. It's just like it doesn't matter how well written your paper is. If it's off-topic, I would give it a score of 0 or 1 (I'm a math teacher, not an English teacher). This is definitely a friendly bunch who are willing to help out in any way they can.

[ericderkovits]

a math teacher huh. maybe that explains partly why you're so good at doing these United Levels. you can figure out ways to get lemmings to their destination

[kaywhyn]

I attribute it more to the experience I have gained from all the many custom level packs I've played over the years. That's what has increased my puzzle solving abilities tremendously. Also, Icho's Neolemmix Tutorial pack has helped me a lot with some of the harder United levels. Yes, many of the United levels have been hard for me and have slowed my progress, but so far they all haven't been anything I couldn't handle. Even now, I've managed to solve a few Genocide levels, but I'm still nervous about what's to come and whether I'll be able to handle them. In any case, since I'm already quite far into United and am somewhat close to the end, I'm going to keep going until I finally beat the pack, or the pack beats me.

Really, it's just all about knowing which skills will help in each situation and which ones won't and whether it's possible to save skills for someplace else. For many of the United levels I got stuck on, a lot of the time I kept thinking I'm a skill short, I simply approached the level incorrectly, or I can't let go of a solution that I think should work but it ultimately won't. In the third case, sometimes it takes me a while to find a novel, different approach to the level due to how I've tried the same route that keeps failing. A really good example is War 36. In my feedback, I said that I constantly kept fighting between two possible routes, one which almost works but doesn't because the fall is fatal by 1 pixel, but I couldn't let this one go for a long time, because I kept thinking about the other possible route but because I kept thinking about it incorrectly in my mind I thought it wouldn't work either, so I kept coming back to the other "almost works but fall is fatal by 1 pixel" route. Even if it wasn't a fatal fall, the problem is that you would always end up 1 platformer short. So, for a very long time, I kept trying different things between the two routes, and after a time, I finally found one which worked to solve the level. In the end, Icho said that mine is a "slight variation of the intended route but is acceptable for him." He was really relieved that I didn't backroute the level, because it had already gone through so many different versions.

So far, there have only been 4 United levels that have stumped me for more than a week. Everything else about 1.5 - 2 days or less. I think this will very likely change with the Genocide levels. Ultimately, most of the time I'm able to get by the roadblocks if I keep at it long enough, most likely after I take an extended break by getting away from the level for a while or I play other level packs in the meantime. Getting away from a level you're stuck on really helps to clear your mind so that the next time you come back to the level you're looking at it with a fresh start. Interestingly enough, so far all the United levels I encountered that have time limits have all been really hard levels for me. Of course, a lot of the United levels with infinite time have been difficult for me too, but I find it interesting that all the ones with time limits have all been hard for me. Now, in contrast to most people here, I love time limits in this game, especially since I'm a math person and I love numbers. Except for Tension 41, they're all really short levels. It just goes to show you that even with a small time limit, short levels can still be deceivingly tough. In other words, short levels have the tendency to look easy, but in actuality they can be really hard levels. War 36 has been the most difficult timed United level so far for me, although that might change with the Genocide levels, and I'm quite certain there will be some timed levels in the rank. Similarly, long levels tend to look very difficult, and they generally are, but in actuality some long levels are easier than they appear. I guess even intimidation can affect one's ability to solve a long level, but this is just a psychological effect trying to mess with you.

Generally, what I do when solving a level is I place the obvious skills first. Got a wide water gap with a low ceiling that you need to get across? It's obvious that a platformer goes here! Need to go from a low place to a really high place, and the walls have vertical scalable edges? Obviously a climber needs to be used! I'm sure pretty much everyone here does this, so I'm sure I'm not the only one. I find this very helpful, because then it's easier to work with the skills you have left. Then next you try to place the non-obvious skills. Sometimes, there's more than one possible skill choice to use at a particular spot, so this sometimes takes some trial-and-error to determine the correct skill to use. You try one of the skills, and if that leads to an eventual situation where it won't help solve the level, then this generally means the other skill is the correct one to use instead. Not always, though. In the course of using one possible skill for a particular spot, it's possible that other skill placements in other places where there's more than one possibility were placed incorrectly themselves.

In general, I'm just a huge puzzle lover, especially math puzzles. This definitely has also helped with my lemming level solving abilities, as I mentioned before this has kind of ingrained a sort of puzzle mentality in me, where I take everything in life that needs to be figured out as a kind of puzzle to solve.

[kaywhyn]

Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5. 5 days of hashing things out and still no solve. Looks like I'm not worthy enough to beat your United pack, Icho. Seeing how I'm currently stuck, I'll just send replays now. Here are War 3, 11, 24, 30, 32, and 38 resolved, along with the new replays Genocide 1 through 4. Have I managed to backroute any of the Genocide levels? In this batch, I highly doubt it.

Regarding the resolved levels, unless you say otherwise, these all seem to be intended now, so I'm quite certain these are the final versions of all the War levels and therefore the rank doesn't need anymore fixing.

Spoiler

War 3 - Stairs of Sacrifice Now I finally use all skills. It's also a way more difficult, decent challenge, as it took me some time to resolve this.

War 11 - Hellraisers Didn't really need to change much here, just needed to simply swap a platformer for a builder or vice versa in some places. I also temporarily raised the RR, even though it might not be needed had I placed the bashers more carefully.

War 24 - Temperance and Vengeance Nice level! This time I used all skills/pickups, and it also took me a while to resolve, but it was an easy solve once I realized that swimmers can also be stoned. I may be a lover of time limits in this game, but truthfully the timer is unnecessary here, especially since it does not add to the challenge at all and I don't know what backroutes it would block, since the level now seems backroute proof. As long as everything is done in the exact order shown, you will never run out of time.

War 30 - Journey to the Coast Now that this level has been fixed up, this level has officially replaced War 11 as my most favorite level of the rank! The level has become so much harder with the changes, and so it took me a while to work out, but it's a really great level! Even with the steel, I still didn't automatically eliminate the path I took to go down before. However, I remember reading about the blocker release with a basher but basher still turns around trick some time ago on this forum, and I even used it in a solution in either a MegSEBytes or a Wafflem level (don't remember which pack it was) even though it's not really needed. However, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position, so perhaps it should be swapped with a level that's considered a bit easy for its position. For this, I think either War 38 or even War 40 are good candidates to swap with this. Even though both 38 and 40 require tricks of their own (former requires miner trick, latter requires stopping a digger with a blocker trick), they're easier to work out in those levels. Or maybe even War 37. Dolly Dimple trick and upping the release rate at the right time, but is otherwise an easy level. Plus it'll be a bit closer to War 32, which also requires the Dolly Dimple trick.

War 32 - Eternally Revolving Ah, this was the trick that was completely missed the first time I solved it. I've seen this Dolly Dimple builder trick too many times. This level still took a while to work out. However, that was a really nice use of the platformer trick so a basher can continue and release the blocker! Here, a platformer is not used to bridge a gap, the one I used to span the gap to the right where the lemmings fall down to in the other replay, and so technically I could had solved the level and have a platformer leftover that time.

War 38 - Imperial Basin I've already seen this miner trick many times that ultimately forces use of the floater that I had leftover last time, and so it wasn't difficult to work out.

Now the new Genocide levels, along with my thoughts on Genocide 5. Out of this batch, both Genocide 3 and 4 were the easiest ones.

Spoiler

Genocide 1 - QUOLA Wow, this one took about 3 hours to work out. Before when I was 1 short of the requirement, I mined and then quickly platformed once the lead lemming dropped a level. Despite using platformers to seal off the gap and to delay some lemmings, one lemming would always slip by. Still, nice level to start off the ranking! Not a difficult solution, just difficult to spot and requires delaying with a miner and maxing the RR so that all lemmings turn around before the miner breaks through while the lead lemming platforms straight across and climbs.

Genocide 2 - Downrising This one also took me a while to work out but is a bit easier than the previous one. Nice level!

Genocide 3 - You Gotta Party Harty Excellent level! The lemming that was walking back and forth in the basher tunnel was completely unnecessary on my part.

Genocide 4 - Marble, Stone, and Iron Breaks Another nice level! Like War 38, I've seen the digger build in midair trick so many times, and hence why the level was easy for me.

Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins Unsolved even after 5 days. Not sure if I'm just stupid or if it's supposed to be a hard level. If it's supposed to be hard, the main reason why the level is hard is simple: There are more walls to get through or go over than the amount of bashers given. As a matter of fact, just one more basher and it would had been level solved already. The main challenge, then, is how to get through the walls with less bashers rather than spend one basher per wall. This is what I haven't figured out yet. I've tried looking for platformer setups where bashers can continue due to the terrain added, but it seems that the walls are too far apart from one another and would require more than one platformer or I can't get such setups. Other than this, the builder to get a fencer to keep going is really obvious, but I'm not certain if a builder needs to be used for that purpose or should be used somewhere else. So, either this level requires an obscure trick that I'm not aware of, or I'm just stupid.

Also, I'm quite certain that I have eliminated going over the top with all the clam traps from being part of the solution. This requires a builder splatform from a lemming at the bottom entrance, but the problem is that at least one builder needs to be used to avoid the first few clam traps with the bottom entrance, and there's the two steel block wall that absolutely requires a builder, which means going over the top has to be an impossibility. I also thought about possibly trapping the bottom crowd without using a digger pit, but I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible, as the other skills just can't contain them. So really, I'm stuck quite badly.

It all goes without saying that I still intend to keep going until the very end, as I'm now 66 levels away from the finish. Just that for the time being, Genocide 5 is the new roadblock for me.

Also, since you either read it or it probably somehow got missed in the jumble of posts that followed after my two replies after you posted a new version, I'll ask it here: Are you finding my written feedback helpful? I know you're finding my replays helpful, but what about my written feedback? I asked about this the last time, but again it might had been overlooked. As you can see, I like to be helpful in any way I can so that you can improve the levels in this pack in the best way possible. There's certainly many reasons to, the top one especially being that this pack is great in so many ways and many times better than your first pack.

Keep up the great work!

[IchoTolot]

V 11.2 is out!

Fixed backroutes thanks to kaywhyn's replays:

- 4 32 (reduced Lemming count to 30 and save req to 29)
- 5 01 (added a OWW)

Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5.

That is a bit surprising. Level 5 was not a roadblock before, but nice to see it finally working.   Just don't get stuck with your thoughts on one certain path. Maybe think outside of the boxes.
I know that you can do it though, you faced worse things! No, seriously you will see once you solved it that you really faced worse.


War 24 - Temperance and Vengeance:

This is finally intended!

War 32 - Eternally Revolving:

No, that's still a total backroute, even worse than the other ones. Reducing the lemming count will hopefully put an end to this without giving away much of the actual solution.

War 30 - Journey to the Coast:

Spoiler

I remember reading about the blocker release with a basher but basher still turns around trick some time ago on this forum

That trick is not nessesary to solve this level. It can be done in a way more basic way.

However, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position,

So you made it harder for yourself here.

In general:
I don't plan on doing much about level positioning anymore though. A few ups and downs in the curve are fine with me, even more as it really seems that different people find different levels hard/easy. This was not a big deal for the other 2 persons solving it for example - they had other roadblocks though.

Genocide 1 - QUOLA

Nope that's still quite a backroute. A OWW should stop this.

Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins

It's so nice to see the level layout finally working as intended and giving you doubts about the path you should take.   Before it was either backrouted or people took the right approach.
I already see in your comment that you locked some skill locations in your head. Maybe let's be a bit more open minded.  

Everything else was intended!

Also, since you either read it or it probably somehow got missed in the jumble of posts that followed after my two replies after you posted a new version, I'll ask it here: Are you finding my written feedback helpful? I know you're finding my replays helpful, but what about my written feedback? I asked about this the last time, but again it might had been overlooked. As you can see, I like to be helpful in any way I can so that you can improve the levels in this pack in the best way possible. There's certainly many reasons to, the top one especially being that this pack is great in so many ways and many times better than your first pack.

All you written feedback will be considered. If not directly in this pack then you can be certain that I keep on gathering information for future projects on what works, what people found difficult/easy, what was disliked, what were the approaches,........
There are always things to learn and data needs to be collected!

Prime example: LOTY 2019 resulted on the received information about the Reunion level "The Face of Evil". The style of the solution was very liked and I wanted to recapture the essence of it.

[kaywhyn]

Curses! I was pretty certain that all War levels have now been fixed up. However, good to know that only one remains in the War rank. Also, only 4 Genocide levels solved and I managed to backroute the very first one? Now that's surprising, to me. Go me, I guess lol

Well, it looks like I have hit a major roadblock with Genocide 5.

That is a bit surprising. Level 5 was not a roadblock before, but nice to see it finally working.   Just don't get stuck with your thoughts on one certain path. Maybe think outside of the boxes.
I know that you can do it though, you faced worse things! No, seriously you will see once you solved it that you really faced worse.

Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins

It's so nice to see the level layout finally working as intended and giving you doubts about the path you should take.   Before it was either backrouted or people took the right approach.
I already see in your comment that you locked some skill locations in your head. Maybe let's be a bit more open minded.

Thanks for the encouragement! In that case, yea, I'm just stupid then. I have the personal tendency to doubt myself a lot. Really, the thing that's keeping me going with the pack is just how I'm very close to the end of this huge pack. Certainly all the very tough hurdles I struggled with and eventually succeeded in getting past in the earlier ranks definitely contributed to providing me more encouragement to keep going. At the same time, I was also stuck on War 6 for a few days so I guess it's not too bad that I'm already stuck this early in the Genocide rank. For War 6, that was just me being stupid. This also ties back to what I said about difficulty being subjective. Levels you and others found hard I might had found easy and similarly levels I found hard you and others might had found easy. So, this probably means I'm not alone in thinking I'm stupid for levels in the latter, as there's most likely others in the exact same situation.

Spoiler

I remember reading about the blocker release with a basher but basher still turns around trick some time ago on this forum

That trick is not nessesary to solve this level. It can be done in a way more basic way.

However, this trick is really obscure, and so as a result I now think War 30 is too difficult for its position,

So you made it harder for yourself here.

Aha, another case of me unnecessarily overcomplicating the solution, similar to what I did on War 20 with the whole miner cancelling. In that case, forget what I said about moving the level further down the rank, although I know you already said that even if it did require the obscure trick I used you're not going to move it, as you're ok with fluctuating spikes in difficulty. No pack is perfect in going from easy to difficult all the time. Good point!

All you written feedback will be considered. If not directly in this pack then you can be certain that I keep on gathering information for future projects on what works, what people found difficult/easy, what was disliked, what were the approaches,........
There are always things to learn and data needs to be collected!

Good to know! I kept thinking my written feedback was being ignored. Thanks as usual for the encouragement and support and again I'm glad to hear that I'm being very helpful in helping you improve and eliminate backroutes.  

[ericderkovits]

hi Kaywhn, Also I want to give you encouragement to continue this pack as I want to see Icho fix backroutes. Also your the only one currently playing the hardest levels. also I collect replays from you too. I keep 2 separate folders of replays. one with others(including some of your non-backrouted war ones as well as other ranks from previous peoples.), and of course icho's p.m.
ones in his separate folder. I like to compare even ones that weren't backrouted but still have tiny differences in replays, I really think your awesome in doing this pack as this is one of the hardest packs out there. You have such williness and patient to do this.
And I have the upmost confidence in you finishing it. I couldn't even begin to tackle this pack (way above me).
Also as long as the updated versions that Icho does have replays that work from others, then I keep those too. I only remove others replays when he updates the pack and those don't work anymore.

I really enjoy your posts and I'm sure Icho appreciates your replays to remove backroutes with updates versions.
and maybe down the road Icho will do some more commentary on United on Youtube at least the next rank (Neutrality).
I really enjoy his ones.

[kaywhyn]

hi Kaywhn, Also I want to give you encouragement to continue this pack as I want to see Icho fix backroutes. I really think your awesome in doing this pack as this is one of the hardest packs out there. You have such williness and patient to do this.
And I have the upmost confidence in you finishing it. I couldn't even begin to tackle this pack (way above me).

I really enjoy your posts and I'm sure Icho appreciates your replays to remove backroutes with updates versions.
and maybe down the road Icho will do some more commentary on United on Youtube at least the next rank (Neutrality).
I really enjoy his ones.

You are way too kind, eric. Thank you very kindly, sir! Much appreciated. Well, thanks to both of you gentlemen's encouragement, I finally solved Genocide 5 last night. Indeed, this whole time I was stuck I was simply a dumb dumb, because

Spoiler

I kept incorrectly thinking that it was impossible to send a disarmer from the bottom entrance to the top part of the level due to the trap at the top because of how it's impossible to disarm it (well, not absolutely impossible, because it is possible, but then it won't be possible to solve the level). Once I challenged this incorrect assumption and started trying things around there, the lightbulb came on and then hooray, I did it. No fancy tricks needed, just a standard puzzle with an absolute red herring path that I couldn't dismiss for a very long time. Well Icho, you managed to fool me with the path of platforming across the 3 water gaps for a really long time. The only hard part is timing a climber at the top so that he doesn't get too far ahead of the disarmer once he does make it to the top after sealing off the top and bottom to catch the disarmer as he falls from hitting the platformer brick at the top. Also, this is the type of level that looks to be a "disjoint union" but is not! Indeed, for the most part it is, but even though only one lemming from the bottom interacts with the top, that's still enough to make it a non-disjoint union. That's another reason why I thought that it had to be possible to send the disarmer up to the top of the level, because I remember reading Icho's take on disjoint unions on this forum. Just for a long time I couldn't figure out how to do it. Otherwise, not a difficult level at all!

So how did the solution come about? I experimented by sending a climber from the top entrance and platformed to the land hanging above the entrance. Platformed some more after the basher broke through, then that's where I realized that it is possible to get the disarmer from the bottom to the top after all. The rest is history.

Ironic that I completely ignored my own advice I gave to another forumer on a Sublems level he's currently stuck on of "terrain that appears to be decoration you can possibly use to your advantage to solve the level." Indeed, it never occurred to me that the terrain right above the top entrance was so integral to the solution!

Well, onward!

[kaywhyn]

More replays inbound! Here are Genocide 5 through 14, as well as War 32 and Genocide 1 resolved. Definitely starting to get really difficult. I would had waited until the halfway point before sending replays, but having finally solved Genocide 14 just now after being stumped on it so badly for a few days, it got me exhausted. Let's see how many of these I managed to backroute. I'm guessing Genocide 7 and even Genocide 14? Nevertheless, I still intend to keep going and finish the pack. 27 main levels left!

Regarding resolved War 32, I think we can now declare all of the War rank finally backroute free!

Spoiler

War 32 - Eternally Revolving Now I know why the level is called Eternally Revolving. Wow, nice trick here! I was definitely aware of the temporary blocker and then stoning it to release the crowd with a basher from earlier attempts in the earlier versions of the level, but I didn't think to use it here for a while. AFAIK, you're the very first person I know to make use of this! Great job! I like how the worker lemming has to circle around the bottom a couple of times to platform the gaps before using the top of the level to finish the rest. Very nice puzzle!

Genocide 1 - QUOLA How's this, better? Almost the same thing, although I needed to do some RR adjustment at the beginning due to not using the bomber at the beginning this time. Nice trick with bombing a basher midstroke!

Now for the new replays

Spoiler

Genocide 5 - Googly Eyed Coffins Nice puzzle here! I already gave feedback for this level, so I'm just going to copy it here.

I kept incorrectly thinking that it was impossible to send a disarmer from the bottom entrance to the top part of the level due to the trap at the top because of how it's impossible to disarm it (well, not absolutely impossible, because it is possible, but then it won't be possible to solve the level). Once I challenged this incorrect assumption and started trying things around there, the lightbulb came on and then hooray, I did it. No fancy tricks needed, just a standard puzzle with an absolute red herring path that I couldn't dismiss for a very long time. Well Icho, you managed to fool me with the path of platforming across the 3 water gaps for a really long time. The only hard part is timing a climber at the top so that he doesn't get too far ahead of the disarmer once he does make it to the top after sealing off the top and bottom to catch the disarmer as he falls from hitting the platformer brick at the top. Also, this is the type of level that looks to be a "disjoint union" but is not! Indeed, for the most part it is, but even though only one lemming from the bottom interacts with the top, that's still enough to make it a non-disjoint union. That's another reason why I thought that it had to be possible to send the disarmer up to the top of the level, because I remember reading Icho's take on disjoint unions on this forum. Just for a long time I couldn't figure out how to do it. Otherwise, not a difficult level at all!

So how did the solution come about? I experimented by sending a climber from the top entrance and platformed to the land hanging above the entrance. Platformed some more after the basher broke through, then that's where I realized that it is possible to get the disarmer from the bottom to the top after all. The rest is history.

Ironic that I completely ignored my own advice I gave to another forumer on a Sublems level he's currently stuck on of "terrain that appears to be decoration you can possibly use to your advantage to solve the level." Indeed, it never occurred to me that the terrain right above the top entrance was so integral to the solution!

Genocide 6 - Chanson d'Automne Another great level. However, I do feel like all those traps at the top the disarmer disarms aren't necessary. The level can still be done with less of the traps. However, that was a pretty nice trick with the first stoner. Also, I initially tried doing a stoner builder for the second to last gap, but every time the crowd would always arrive before the builder was done. I thought two builders wouldn't work for it for some reason. Turns out I need to build in such a way that it catches the climber and that the climber is able to bridge the gap to the right.

Genocide 7 - Braindead Mummys This is likely a backroute, since I have a stoner leftover and that allowed me to spare the trapped lemming that collected the bomber pickup. Also, it has nothing to do with the solution of the level, but the correct spelling is "mummies." In English, the general rule is if a noun ends with a consonant and y, to make it plural, the y changes to an "i" and then you add "es." So, the correct spelling is mummies, not mummys. Just thought I let you know that we can probably correct the misspelling of the level title.

Genocide 8 - Pitch Black O.o, this was a really good level. The tricky part was getting up to the next level at the beginning. Once I figured that out, the rest was easy.

Genocide 9 - Laboratory Evacuation Aha, the first timed level of the rank. Much sooner than I thought. Once again, this continued the trend of timed levels in the pack being pretty difficult, because this was somewhat a hard level itself. The most difficult part is the very beginning. Initially, I thought I could get a lemming bouncing off a blocker to fall into the bomber hole to bash them out, but after several tries it turns out that it's not possible. Instead, one has to rely on two platformers building in such a way that one of them builds into the brick of another and turns around. After that, the tricky thing is timing the lemmings so that the diggers will allow the crowd to make it to the exit without falling into the water. I loved seeing the solution in action. I had 7 seconds left.

Genocide 10 - Where Secrets Sway I love this level! Lots of nice tricks here. The builder trick from War 28 returns here, and new trick of a blocker turning falling lemmings in midair. For a while, I kept thinking a builder was needed for the very end, but then it would render the level unsolvable. Once I realized that, it took me a while to wonder how I could get the lemmings into the exit without one, and then suddenly the idea of using a blocker to turn around fallers in midair came to me. I quickly tested that idea, and when I saw that it works, the rest came easy to me.

Genocide 11 - Embracing Entropy Wow, what a great level! It seemed really difficult at first, but the solution is not that hard. I kept thinking to use the left side to get the lemmings back up, but it's impossible to without using up too many skills that are needed elsewhere. After a while, it then occurred to me to use the right side where the evil eyes are. Almost ignored my own advice of "terrain that appears to be decoration can be used to solve the level..." again Loved that cloning the builder trick a second time so that the one building right can circle back before the clone finishes sealing the gap.

Genocide 12 - Stone Cold Crazy Loved the Dolly Dimple trick and mining through the builder bridge and also releasing the blocker all in one. The digger assignment is super precise. I'm not sure if any other positions work. I didn't have to use the floaters, but I'm guessing that is ok.

Genocide 13 - Descent Into Cerberon I saw the solution in 5 minutes, so this was a really easy level for me. Thanks for the easy setup that told exactly where to start building the bridges. I think the solution would had been even cooler if the miner bounced off two blockers instead of just one, but that's just my opinion.

Genocide 14 - Vortex of Plans Wow, by far the hardest level I have encountered thus far in the rank. I was stuck on this level for 2 days and then some. For a while, I wondered if the lemmings were supposed to be contained at the bottom or if I could seal the gaps before any fell in. If they were supposed to be contained, it took me a really long time to figure out how to get them out. Turns out the assignments to do so are super precise. The climber has to mine the instant he is able to after hoisting, then after 5 strokes, he has to be assigned a walker in midstroke. Also, I think there's only one basher position that will allow the crowd to get up, and also only 1 position for the builder. Right there that's 4 extreme precision assignments!

The most difficult part was the middle with the stacker. This took a while to refine. For a long time, I thought the stack had to be lined up exactly with the right edge of the platform so a climber can get up, but the problem with this is that I would need to waste two walkers, one to turn a lemming that slipped past the stack and another to interrupt a basher midstroke. This would end up causing a lot of problems, since I wouldn't have anything to stop a miner at the very end.

Then I started playing with the stacker position after just one platformer. Most of my attempts I assigned a walker to a lemming just before falling off a stack and mining so that the lemmings can get up on the stack. All well and good, until I saw that either the crowd cannot get up on the platform after bashing away from the top and then platforming to seal the gap, or the crowd is able to get up but then cannot get up more after sealing the gap with a platformer. After trying several readjustments in the timing of when to stack, it kept failing, so I almost gave up and was about to send my best replay attempt to you.

Then, I had an idea of possibly doing the level so that I wouldn't need to seal the gap to the left after using a destructive skill to get the lemmings up the stack. Nope, a miner, would always break and leave a gap in the wall. Then I tried a basher to the right instead. When interrupting a basher midstroke, turns out a 1 pixel gap would always result at the top. However, at least the wall is left intact so that no platforming to the left is necessary to seal a gap. But, more disappointment as I saw that a lemming wouldn't platform to the right to seal off the 1 pixel gap. Ugh!

Finally, I found a stacker position that did work so that a lemming got up on the stack after a few bricks to bash and then interrupt midstroke. This resulted in a hole wide enough that allowed a lemming to platform to the right. So, level finally solved after all this madness and almost giving up. Even after all this madness, I have a floater and miner leftover, so ultimately in the end a backroute? And to think it was finally backroute free after having gone through so many versions! For the record, the stacker had to be placed at just the right time, and it's super precise, as well as the basher and walker to interrupt him. So, this makes 7 precise assignments in total!

Oh, funny thing about the clouds. One time, I happened to activate CPM and I saw the clouds were a light shade of grey, not dark shade of grey, and my reaction: Wait a minute, it's terrain, not background? That changes everything! Had I not realized that, this level would had been impossible for me.     

Also, you mentioned that you changed the mushroom position slightly on War 36. What I want to know is if we're talking about the same one. In my feedback for the level, the one I was referring to is the slanted mushroom pointing down to the left on the slanted slope in the middle. When I load up the level, it all looks the same to me except maybe for one of the mushrooms in the pond in the middle. That's not the one I was referring to in my feedback. So, which one did you change the position of slightly, the slanted one or the one near the water?

Onward and hoping the remaining Genocide levels don't trump me too badly. After the brutal Genocide 14, I'm not too hopeful, but as I said I still intend to go through til the very end. I've made it too far into the pack to possibly stop now.

Once again, thank you for the encouragement to keep going. Good to know I'm being cheered on by some, pack author included, to keep going and finish the pack once and for all!

[ericderkovits]

yes kaywhyn, I want you to finish the pack, however long it takes, even if some levels take days or whatever. I'm keeping an eye out for your replays. any that aren't backroutes that he updates for I keep. if the pack gets updated and your replays fail then I remove them. Boy you really are determined to do this. I just wouldnt have the patient to try to solve a level after many days.

But I wish you continued success.