Integral Lemmings

[∫tan x dx]

Hi all. I'm a long time fan of the lemmings series and I'd like to present you with my first level pack!

Integral Lemmings

This is a pack for the latest version of NeoLemmix (V12.03.01). It consists of two ranks, each with ten levels.
The rank Epsilon levels use the classic skillset whereas the Delta levels use some of the new features and skills that NeoLemmix provides.
The two ranks are of roughly equal difficulty, and the levels in each pack get progressively harder.

Download Integral Lemmings V5 here!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xgorllnqhaf14qz/IntegralLemmingsV5.zip?dl=1

Changelog for version 2:

Spoiler

- Set most levels to have infinite time available, except for those levels where time is a factor.
- (Hopefully) Fixed some backroutes in Epsilon 2 and 4
- Changed the platforms in Epsilon 6 to remove a backroute
- Modified the talisman challenge in Epsilon 8 (should be a bit trickier for some of the veterans out there! )
- Tweaked Epsilon 10 slightly
- Reworked Delta 8 to improve the challenge
- Moved the exit platform in Delta 9 to reduce building time.

Changelog for version 3:

Spoiler

- (Hopefully) Fixed some more backroutes in Epsilon 2, 4 and Delta 1
- Lowered the platforms in Epsilon 6 to make the intended solution clearer
- Lowered the lemming count in Delta 3 from 40 to 20 (no actual change in solution, just fewer lemmings)
- Tweaked Delta 6 to remove a few unintended level tactics. Also made explicit the traps and their activation areas

Changelog for version 4:

Spoiler

- Added a new Alpha rank!
- Removed all music specifications for Epsilon + Delta rank levels.
- Moved the snow levels in Epsilon + Delta nearer to the top, to account for their relative easiness.

No gameplay changes have been made to any Epsilon or Delta level - all solutions and replays are still the same.

Changelog for version 5:

Spoiler

The Locked Room Mysteries - Changed the save requirement to 30/40. Added a talisman for saving all 40 lemmings.
Unfriendly Neighbours - Made the middle platform thinner to make the top route more attractive. Added a talisman for saving 40 lemmings.
Crowd Control - Reduced lemming counts to save 38 of 40 lemmings. Added a talisman for saving 39.
Thick and Thin - Added a talisman for 100%. Adjusted terrain at the rightmost part of the level. The majority of the level should play the same, but the last part may be broken.
A Sorting Problem - Swapped the slider/swimmer hatches. Moved the lower right exit slightly more to the right to prevent a possible backroute.
The Big Dig - Reworked the terrain in the middle of the level to encourage interesting solutions.
Equivalent Exchange - Removed some terrain at the right side of the level to prevent a backroute. Added some terrain to the left side. Lowered the save requirement.
Fun with Lasers - Adjusted terrain near the left exit.
Escape from Zombie Island - Adjusted terrain near the leftmost entrance. It now requires a minimum of seven diggers to tunnel through that piece of terrain!

A different kind of problem - Adjusted terrain near the third entrance to allow for greater control over the splat height. This will most likely break replays!

Feedback, suggestions, comments and criticisms are appreciated!

Enjoy!

[Flopsy]

Welcome to the forums tan x dx

This level pack is very well designed and you clearly have worked hard on it at first glance.
I'm interested in recording myself playing this level pack and that will be valuable feedback to yourself, the levels do look very difficult but they look like they will be fun to attempt.

The only immediately critique I have of this level pack in general is it is generally not common practice to have a time limit for every single level in the pack. We usually have an unwritten rule here that time limits should only be used when the challenge of the level warrants it. A couple of good examples to use from the standard Lemmings games are "Just A Minute", "ONWARDS AND UPWARDS", "Welcome to the Party Pal" etc.
I can see a couple of levels in the pack where this rule could apply, the ones where the time limits are generally smaller like 3:00 could be ok. Without playing the levels I don't have a precise answer to this, you rarely get much from adding a 7-8 min time limit to a level though for example.

I think what I'm saying is, the levels look hard enough already without the time limits being there to turn our potential solves into no solves because we weren't quick enough to execute the solution. It can be aggravating and result in the pack not being as much fun and this pack although small looks like it can be a lot of fun so it is such a minor thing which can be easily fixed .

Maybe you didn't know that having no time limit levels was acceptable, I can assure you they are most welcome

[IchoTolot]

I am greatly impressed with the pack so far!   I can even see glances of my own level creation style in some levels!

I've played through Epsilon and will continue with Delta tomorrow, as it is rather late here.

I've attached my replays to this post and will post detailed feedback when I'm through with the pack.

Generally as Flopsy said I can only see 1 level in the first level that benefits from a time limit, that being the 3:00 dirt one.

Great pack so far and welcome to the forums!

[Crane]

Welcome to the forums, ln|sec x| + C.  I'll definitely start having a look at your pack.  Good for more people to join our little family!

[namida]

Just a tip - with DropBox links, change the dl=0 to dl=1 at the end, then the link will work as a direct download (instead of having to go through the DropBox splash page).

Going to take a look at this pack. Welcome to the forums!



Okay, I played the first three levels.

The first level was pretty clever, took me a while to solve.
I think the second might be a backroute. If it's intended, it's pretty clever.
The third one... holy shit, this level is crazy hard. I'm not sure this isn't a backroute, and even this took me well over an hour to find. If it is the intended solution, that's a lot of precision...

I agree with the sentiment about the time limits being unnecessary, although at least they were set high enough that they weren't a problem.

I'll continue on this later, but I'm definitely very impressed so far.



Okay, I played the rest of Epsilon. I'll play Delta another time, maybe tomorrow.

I'm very impressed. These are all great levels - some easier than others for sure, but they're all very good.

The 4th one, I suspect might be another backroute.
The 5th one is one of my favorites! That's a really clever level.
The 6th one is another really neat level. I got the left side almost right away (I've used that trick many times in my own levels), but it took me a while to figure out how to handle the right side.
The 7th one was fairly easy. I saw the solution right away, it was just a matter of figuring out how to make it work, which didn't take too long either. It's still a good level, just relatively easy by this pack's standards.
The 8th one, almost every one of my packs contains (at least one) level using this kind of trick, so I had no trouble at all with this one.
The 9th one was a really fun level. Despite the time limit being low, it didn't really feel particularly tight.
And finally, the final level of Epsilon... this was second only to level 3 in terms of how long it took me to solve, but this time it was purely a matter of figuring the solution out, rather than messing around with precision. This was an INCREDIBLE level! A very likely LOTY2018 candidate here!

[IchoTolot]

I solved the pack and hui the Delta rank was quite a challenge.

I've attached my full set of replays.

Feedback (I left the timer issue out for the most part here):

Spoiler

Epsilon 1: A very nice start that immidiatly indicates that this pack is no pushover. I also spotted similarities to my level creation style here in the point of larger landscpes with lower skill density + I also used that nice builder trick quite a few times myself.

Epsilon 2: "We all fall down" cheeky version.    Nice level if my solution is not a backroute.

Epsilon 3: I like the idea here of the exits being safety nets and obstacels at the same time. I would put the upper right hatch holding area like 4 pixels lower as I ran into quite a few precise situations where the miner splatted but not the crowd. This precision there could be eased.

Epsilon 4: I don't know if everything is intended here, but it was a nice level anyway.

Epsilon 5: Oh, I get "Controlled Release" flashbacks from my Reunion pack here!    I loved this one!

Epsilon 6: This I would call very high art! 2 very similar setups, but the twist on the right is brilliant!

Epsilon 7: Good level, but I must say I am a bit more found of the other ones so far.

Epsilon 8: Talisman unlocked! I think I used the trick you had in mind to get it.

Epsilon 9: The only level worthyof the timer! + and it's a very good one. You really have to manage which crowd does what here.

Epsilon 10: That little trick on the right inspires me for an own level. A very good rank finisher.

Delta 1: That was quite a hard nut! But after remembering Lemmings turn inside terrain I saw the trick, nice level. The trick is a bit precise but I think it's totally acceptable.

Delta 2: Excellent solution, but a very tight timing at the end there (if my solution is acceptable). I still enjoyed it a lot though.

Delta 3: And another trick I learned today in terms of creating a basher extension.   Thanks for showing me this I might have some ideas of my own

Delta 4: Nice solution, but some timings here with the first miner/cloner combo could be eased with a slower RR or less walking time for the gliders.

Delta 5: And you just blew my mind here The solution is nearly timing and precision free and just plain excellent. But I see some people raging at it because they try fiddly things, can't solve it and get angry. Don't let them doubt you on this level,I would even call it LOTY contest finalist worthy!

Delta 6: First I thought, oh this will be a fiddly annoying to time solution, but as I saw this I am proven wrong. Although I might raise the save requirement a bit to filter out a few more solutions.

Delta 7: Am excellent and elegant 1 of everything level!

Delta 8: I found a weak link in the pack Here I must say if (this was what you aimed at) it is way too heavy on the builder side and most of the level is just plain building up. But this coud be a backroute.

Delta 9: I don't know if this was intended, but it's very tight on the timing. Still a good level though, although I would remove like 2-3 builders and thighten the gap to the exit accordingly.

Delta 10: This was a bit too much on the fiddly side for me, although still ok. I 100% would remove the timer here!

All in all this jumps right up into my favorite packs list and the things I learned could inspire me to create a few more levels for my United pack, which comes slowly close to completion now.

[∫tan x dx]

Hi everybody!

Thank you all so, so much for all of your kind words! This is indeed a lovely community!

I've uploaded a version 2 of integral lemmings based on the feedback I have received so far.
See the op for the change log and updated download link.

A word of warning, those who have found backroutes to levels will have to retry them, although I'm sure they still won't pose too much of a challenge to you crafty folk!

[namida]

I checked over my replays in the new version. Any I don't mention, my old replay still works.

Epsilon 2: Only took some minor tweaks to make my solution work again.
Epsilon 4: Here, too, it just took some slight tweaks to get my solution to work again.
Epsilon 8: I didn't try the talisman again yet, but I think I know the general idea - it's still pretty much the same thing, just a lot more frustrating to execute.
Epsilon 10: Okay, this feels intended. That's a really good level!

[IchoTolot]

I've updated my replays.

Spoiler

Epsilon 2: Now this seems way more elegant, although I saved a builder.

Epsilon 4: Either this is a more optimised version of the intended route where I saved an extra lem and an exploder+floater or a horrible backroute. I would lower the very right white platform by 2 pixels and move it 4 to the right, this way the gap between the red blocks and the white platform itself is clearer.

Epsilon 6: That's also an awesome trick here!   But I would lower both platforms by ~ 2 pixels. Another solution is just blocked currently. I've built from the very right in the right crowd 2 builders upwards and then tried to drop down the left crowd on that platform. This is JUST splatheight. Lowering the platforms by 2 pixels would make it clearer that this doesn't work.

Epsilon 8: I think this is more what you had in mind for the talisman.

Epsilon 10: Just very small asjustments needed.

Delta 8: This plays way better now!

[namida]

IchoTolot re Epsilon 6

I've built from the very right in the right crowd 2 builders upwards and then tried to drop down the left crowd on that platform. This is JUST splatheight.

I tried this initially too, figured out it didn't work, then came up with an alternate approach. I don't think two pixels will indicate it very clearly in this case - it's still splat height at the top of the bridge (yet close enough to it that it isn't clearly so without testing or using the distance ruler) either way, while still 24 ~ 26 pixels more from the very bottom. It needs to be moved down by significantly more than that if the intent is to clearly communicate "this is splat height". With that being said - finding that it was splat height didn't invalidate my whole solution, what I did on the other half of the level still remained part of my final solution, so it is one of the less critical cases of this IMO.

I also solved Delta 1. This feels extremely backroutey, but I can't see any other way to solve it.
EDIT: Solved Delta 2. I could see this one being either intended or backroute, not sure. If it's intended, great level.

Spoilers re Delta 2's solution

I have to ask, was this in some way inspired by Panic Attack from Lemmings Plus II, given similarities in both the name and solution (Panic Attack also heavily relies on diggers to remove thin vertical walls)?

[IchoTolot]

I totally forgot 1 point in my feedback!

Spoiler

Delta 06: Make the masher buttons visible! Very important, we don't want hidden traps even with clear physics mode!

[Strato Incendus]

Correction: IchoTolot doesn't like hidden traps! Sometimes they are unavoidable by design (boulder trap in the Dirt tileset, grappling trap in the Purple tileset, and so on). I don't think people have come so far yet as to not use these traps at all anymore in new levels (because then Nepster would have culled them, I guess ).

I guess the general consensus among all forum members is, though: "Don't make traps hidden unless it is absolutely inevitable."

[IchoTolot]

Correction: IchoTolot doesn't like hidden traps! Sometimes they are unavoidable by design (boulder trap in the Dirt tileset, grappling trap in the Purple tileset, and so on). I don't think people have come so far yet as to not use these traps at all anymore in new levels (because then Nepster would have culled them, I guess ).

I guess the general consensus among all forum members is, though: "Don't make traps hidden unless it is absolutely inevitable."

Correction: IchoTolot, Simon, Nepster......(insert user name here) don't like hidden traps. Don't act like I am the only one here!

If your design is only possible with hidden traps than it's just plain bad design! If a trap requires it to be hidden it's a badly designed trap! This fact isn't going to change regardless of how many people don't mind them. 
All people can think the earth is flat, but it's not going to change the truth.
New players most likely don't use the true physics that much and will get furios running into hidden traps.

It was the very first thing I was taught here by nearly everyone playing my levels back in the days - Don't hide your traps! I will glady pass that torch to everyone new.

Here in this case the mashers on Delta 6 would even look way better if they are just under the steel on the top and visible.

[Strato Incendus]

And Arty and GigaLem have both made use of hidden traps and/or exits in their respective packs. I think GigaLem has changed his stance on hidden traps pretty drastically since then, though, whereas Arty, in one of his SEB Lems LPs with GigaLem as a guest, said just recently that now with clear physics mode, there is no reason to complain about hidden traps .

The main issue with GigaLems is that it's only available for NeoLemmix 1.43, which does not have clear physics yet. That is what makes hidden traps infuriating! So of course, back when you joined the forum, everyone told you not to hide your traps because there was no clear physics mode yet!

That's also the reason why I tried harder to avoid them in Lemmicks.

If a trap requires it to be hidden it's a badly designed trap! This fact isn't going to change regardless of how many people don't mind them.

That's not a fact; that's your opinion . One can also easily make the case that it's a very cleverly designed trap!

I admit my sentence can be misread as if you were the only one against them; your statement, in contrast, can be read as if "hard-to-see traps are an absolute no-go" was a sentiment shared by everyone on the forum .

As I said, my interpretation of the forum consensus is that people agree traps shouldn't be hidden more than necessary. But I haven't read of any widespread appeal so far to not use the boulder trap anymore .

If the forum stance on hidden traps was that unanimous, I'm pretty sure we would have moved on to making traps "no overwrite"-objects by default (and disable any option to do it any other way). Even then, though, the boulder trap from the Dirt set or the grappling arm from Purple would still not be distinguishable from regular terrain.

[IchoTolot]

And Arty and GigaLem have both made use of hidden traps and/or exits in their respective packs. I think GigaLem has changed his stance on hidden traps pretty drastically since then, though, whereas Arty, in one of his SEB Lems LPs with GigaLem as a guest, said just recently that now with clear physics mode, there is no reason to complain about hidden traps .

The main issue with GigaLems is that it's only available for NeoLemmix 1.43, which does not have clear physics yet. That is what makes hidden traps infuriating! So of course, back when you joined the forum, everyone told you not to hide your traps because there was no clear physics mode yet!

I say it again : New players most likely don't use the true physics that much and will get furios running into hidden traps.

Using clear physics as a cheap way out argument for every design issue doesn't make it any better, it doesn't change the core problem about lying to users.

Again: The case that some people don't mind it doesn't make bad design any better. The fact that many people smoke doesn't make it healthier.

That's not a fact; that's your opinion . One can also easily make the case that it's a very cleverly designed trap!

Sorry, that I would call a fact and I stand for that. Hiding things/features/functions/informations from users is bad design in any kind of program. Any kind of invisible trap can be replaced with a visible one and it's a straight upgrade and no, visuals don't matter here. Of course between the visible ones you wanna choose the best looking one.

Cleverly designed in a visual way don't make the bad design in general go away.