[NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]

[Strato Incendus]

Yeah, since strato_generalmd is a special tileset, not meant to add standard pieces or for others to build levels with (many members have their own "miscellaneous" tilesets for that), I doubt the styles manager will be able to grab it. It's not part of the official styles download, for sure , nor are my custom recolourings of the sprites. (But the latter are optional anyway.)

Paralems => LWT => Lemmicks => Pit Lems

Really? You found Pit Lems harder than LWT? Guess that gives me even more motivation to convert it to New Formats, then!

Sure, the focus with Pit Lems was on mechanical challenge instead of aesthetics like in LWT. But it also contains lots of open-ended "puzzles" (that are merely about resource conservation), doesn't require a lot of "tricks", and having only really been completed by nin10doadict prior to you, I doubt it was much more backroute-proof than LWT.

Also, nin10doadict was indeed able to beat the entirey of Pit Lems, but did not progress that far into LWT, as far as I know.

Well, either way, Lemmings Open Air is going to take the top spot in difficulty among my packs soon...

Truthfully, the final level of LOA was nowhere near as stressful as The Grand Puzzle. Slightly easier as well, and I definitely prefer LOA's final level to LWT's final level. If you read my feedback on The Grand Puzzle, I'm not a huge fan of the level, mainly due to how I got quickly annoyed at how much scrolling needs to be done and just not being able to watch all crowds at once.

Yes, I've read your criticism, and it very much overlaps with what IchoTolot criticised about "The Grand Puzzle" as well. That's why I had already taken it to heart and made the last level of LOA a) much smaller and b) had all the crowds contained from the start, except for the one where the camera / screen starts. This was one key difference IchoTolot had pointed out between "The Grand Puzzle" and "Final Frustration".

Last level of Lemmings Open Air

I'm not entirely content with the last level of LOA - I wish I could have provided an equal number of all skills, but nobody so far has managed to solve it with just 10 Builders (myself included). So it's 15 Builders as opposed to 10 of everything else. But the nice thing about it is that it is otherwise a 10-of-everything level with the new "10 classic skills" (classic 8 + Jumper and Shimmier). I hope this new "tradition" catches on! I must admit I'm a little tired of packs that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 across the entire list of levels, now that we have so many more skills. Except of course if those packs were created before the other skills were available, like NepsterLems. Then they get a free pass from me.

I can already promise that I will attempt a "Final Frustration" level again, because I think I can do even better than the last level of LOA.

[Proxima]

I must admit I'm a little tired of packs that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 across the entire list of levels, now that we have so many more skills. Except of course if those packs were created before the other skills were available, like NepsterLems. Then they get a free pass from me.

I'm asking out of curiosity, because you've raised this point before and it doesn't tally with my experience. Other than conversions of older content, what packs are there that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 skills? I know of one (Lemmings Migration), which is hardly evidence that there is a general trend. Are there others?

[kaywhyn]

Paralems => LWT => Lemmicks => Pit Lems

Really? You found Pit Lems harder than LWT? Guess that gives me even more motivation to convert it to New Formats, then!

You're welcome I'm definitely looking forward to Pit Lems remastered, though if I'm not mistaken you said it's pretty much a compilation of your best levels from Lemmicks, Paralems, and Pit Lems? If that's the case, then not much for me to look forward to other than how the backroute patched levels turn out.

I should emphasize that IMO Pit Lems isn't that much harder than LWT. As I said before, in LWT there were generally only 1 or a few levels in each rank that I found hard, and hence I certainly agree with your assessment that LWT is intermediate in difficulty. Also, there's 40 levels in each rank, and so the difficulty was allowed to be much more gradual and slower in increasing. LWT also had a lot of pre-texts, while Pit Lems didn't have as much, so in that way Pit Lems can definitely seem to be that much harder than LWT, at least for the less experienced players. I was already familiar with all the tricks outlined in the pre-texts for both the Noisemaker and the Amateur ranks, and so that's why the pack appeared a bit easier to me. However, I admit that even I need an occasional reminder of some of them. This probably means that it might be better for players to play LWT first for the easier difficulty compared to Pit Lems. At the same time, I'm the opposite in that I generally play the smaller packs first and then the bigger ones, though I occasionally digress from this and instead generally play the harder packs first and then the easier ones next, like how I did with United, regardless of pack size.

In contrast, there's only 20 levels in each rank in Pit Lems, and so the difficulty increased much faster, although the levels themselves in the ranks already start off difficult. Then again, it's possible that I might had found some levels much easier than they should be due to backroutes, considering that you haven't watched my replays for the other ranks besides Groupie, and so my assessment of LWT's difficulty is probably more diluted than it should be.

Also, nin10doadict was indeed able to beat the entirey of Pit Lems, but did not progress that far into LWT, as far as I know.

I did see some of his LP of Pit Lems, and IIRC I think there were two levels that he got hints on and did post-commentary, one of which was the checkerboard level, the other was the one I got stuck on, it was the rank finisher of the penultimate rank.

[Strato Incendus]

I'm asking out of curiosity, because you've raised this point before and it doesn't tally with my experience. Other than conversions of older content, what packs are there that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 skills? I know of one (Lemmings Migration), which is hardly evidence that there is a general trend. Are there others?

Well, to be fair, since I announced I would give those older packs an obvious "free pass", I think most of them would qualify for that because they are indeed that old. For example, I know that Nepster's "Return of the Tribes" is even older than NepsterLems, so obviously it only has classic skills, too - even though a pack alluding to Lemmings 2: The Tribes feels much more like it "needs" NeoLemmix skills compared to e.g. Lemmings Migration.

I looked back at when the Lemmings Plus Series started using NeoLemmix skills, and as far as I can tell, it wasn't until Lemmings Plus IV. Of course, I wasn't around at the time those packs were created, so I don't know whether namida made them in Lemmix first, or whether he had already set up NeoLemmix but hadn't introduced any new skills yet.

For packs converted from SuperLemmini, like SubLems, it's also obvious that they don't have NeoLemmix skills. And for the couple of levels Arty had to swap out because of certain skill behaviours that exist in SuperLemmini but not in NeoLemmix (like "Lemmings can't jump"), it wouldn't have made sense to introduce new skills just for those. Just like I didn't want to replace my radiation/slowfreeze levels in Lemmings World Tour with Shimmier levels in New Formats.

Then there is also Lemmings Stampede, although again, I don't quite know when it was first created.

Just in general, when I joined the forums, it already had had NeoLemmix skills for a while, yet most of the "current" content at that time (i.e. the packs held in high regard and recommended to others) still only featured the classic skills. Lemmings Migration came out new at that time and went into the same direction. I think it wasn't until I played CasuaLemmings that I encountered a new pack making excessive use of the new skills. And it wasn't until SEB Lems that a really challenging pack with new skills came along. At least that's how I remember it.

Now in New Formats, there are fortunately already many more packs that use NeoLemmix skills.

However, in my post I was specifically referring to X-of-everything levels. And so far, most packs I've seen that feature them do so in a "X of every classic skill" manner. This is true for Lemmings Plus I-III and NepsterLems above all else. I haven't seen a lot of X-of-everything levels than include NeoLemmix skills in the same quantity as X.

Maybe because we haven't even agreed yet in the first  place on what "everything" means when more than 8 skills are available .
I'm referring to both the increased panel size (from 8 to 10) and the increased number of skill types (19 as of now, hopefully 23 in the end) here.

[kaywhyn]

It's official! I'm the very first person to come up with a 100% solution to Groupie 40 - The Grand Puzzle! and therefore confirm that such a solution that was speculated to be possible is indeed achievable. Replay attached. I have therefore eclipsed everyone's records for this level, including Strato's On top of it, I even replayed the entire level again from scratch. Meaning, I didn't use my existing replay, as a lot of skill assignments had to be tweaked anyway. And, most importantly, I was willing to sit through the stress and annoyances of playing the level again just to find a "save everyone" solution. To Icho and Strato, you two are welcome

Do note that it still took me a very long time to find this solution, 1.5 hours. So, I'm hoping you can still award me for my efforts in some way, Strato Even more interesting, the solution ended up using all destructive skills except 1.

Spoiler

I'm guessing the lemming you lost is the blocker from the second entrance to the right, as that was originally the one I lost in my first solution from a few weeks ago. As it turns out, you need to get an extremely specific set up to be able to release the blocker with a lemming from the the right-most entrance. Also, you need to have a spare builder to turn him around later. This spare builder was where I originally used one to plug up both small gaps in the pillars in the middle of the level. This is the area that needs very good timing in order to avoid using the builder. That's why I allowed multiple lemmings to turn around on the blocker so as to make it easier to be able to send out a climber to the left after breaking through the pillar and therefore also sparing the builder. I do believe the only way to allow the climber to proceed further to the left is to bash with the digger lemming after he has climbed past the point where the basher will make a dent in the pillar and make it unclimbable.

And yes, this is indeed very worthy of a gold talisman, so I say go ahead and put it in!

[Strato Incendus]

Well done, kaywhyn! The talisman has already been implemented in the newest update!

With this, you also reminded me I still had three other Groupie levels to fix, so this has been done in the same update as well.

Changelog

Groupie 05: added steel
Groupie 13: added steel and one-way arrows
Groupie 19: added steel
Groupie 40: added gold talisman for saving everyone

Groupie 40

I'm guessing the lemming you lost is the blocker from the second entrance to the right, as that was originally the one I lost in my first solution from a few weeks ago

Actually no; the one Blocker I have never been able to free was the one turning everyone around right before the exit. Or rather, I could have freed him with a Digger, but then he would have walked off to the right, dropped into the abyss and died. Your small modification of my approach, i.e. placing the Blocker inside a Miner shaft and then freeing him with a lemming dropping "into" the Blocker from above by having that lemming mine into the opposite direction (where he needs to mine anyway to allow the crowds from the left to get up) was the big reveal for me.

The rest basically "didn't matter", because it's completely up to the player how they get through the rest. As long as they save one additional Miner to do this, they at least still have a shot to save everyone.

I have attached my solution for "The Grand Puzzle" for comparison, so that you can see which Blocker I mean.

[kaywhyn]

Wow, I really like your solution way better than mine. Mine just had way too much pixel precision assignments and therefore the level felt way more stressful than it needed to be. You also saved way more destructive skills than I did, and you indeed could salvage your own solution to make it a 100%er by doing what I did Lastly, you put several of the builder assignments in different places than I did. Even more, I could see you might be able to have a builder leftover by doing the digger/basher/miner staircase when freeing the second entrance from the left at the bottom. As for having more than 1 builder leftover in the end, I highly doubt that's possible, meaning any solution to the level should end up either using all builders or all but 1. I might be wrong, though. In any case, the whole point of this endeavor was to lay claim to the speculation that a 100% solution is possible. Now we don't have to worry about whether it's doable or not. Heck, I felt you indeed could had been the very first to achieve the 100% solution

That reminds me.

Spoiler

It appears that the basher/blocker turnaround trick works in both Old Formats and New Formats, but surprisingly doesn't work in very Old Formats, i.e, v1.43. I have tried and tried, but it just doesn't seem to work. I wonder why, and was it added in later versions due to physics changes?

As for the other changes in the Groupie rank, really? Only 3 levels needed fixing? That's pretty good out of the 40 total levels in the rank!;)

[Strato Incendus]

As for the other changes in the Groupie rank, really? Only 3 levels needed fixing? That's pretty good out of the 40 total levels in the rank!;)

I had already updated a bunch of the others the last time

Updated levels are Groupie 01, 05, 06, 13, 18, 27, 29, and 36. The change about Groupie 10 was merely cosmetic (repositioning of one-way arrows).

Plus, before that, I had fixed all of IchoTolot's solutions to the Groupie rank, too.

Of course, it might well be that I've still overlooked some things, or that some levels might be unfixable (I said earlier that I deliberately left one of "my own" Groupie levels, i.e. level 39, the way it was). But as far as I can see, the last update before the current one was from 22nd November, and all the other Groupie levels I had fixed earlier had that date as their "last modified".


As for your question in the spoiler, I have no idea. I never tried to enforce such a solution in "Lemmicks". I guess the only person who could provide more inside into that is namida.

[kaywhyn]

Oh, right. That's still pretty good though, 11/40 levels in the Groupie rank needing a fix, i.e, about 1/4

[kaywhyn]

Resolved the 3 Groupie levels

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, kaywhyn! I'm fine with your solution to "All your zombies" as an alternative one, but the other two still feel like backroutes.

Anyways, I still have to watch all your replays from the main ranks, so expect one giant update once I'm done with that. Groupie 05 and Groupie 13 will simply also be fixed yet again along the way.

Obviously, this will take quite a while, so...

[Strato Incendus]

The update is here! The link in the starting post is still the same Dropbox link as always.

The following levels have gone through some changes:

Changelog

Rockstar 14 - steel
Rockstar 15 (just a cosmetic change here, added a flag )
Rockstar 31 - one-way arrows
Rockstar 38 - one-way arrows
Rockstar 39 - steel

Legend 06 - fire traps
Legend 10 - 7 Platformers have been turned into pickup skills
Legend 11 - steel
Legend 22 - steel
Legend 23 - one-way arrows
Legend 27 - steel
Legend 37 - steel
Legend 38 - steel

Groupie 13 - don't even quite remember what I changed here, it's been a while, and it still doesn't seem fixable - these thin terrain stripes that define the visual identity of the level will probably always allow for some sort of Bomber shortcuts

There is also one trick I've repeatedly seen on the Legend level "Nothing else matters" that I can't really seem to prevent.

Finally, kaywhyn found a solution to Legend 03, "We can be heroes", that is perfectly acceptable in Old Formats, yet it wouldn't have worked in New Formats so far because of the deadly ceiling.
However, since I liked this alternative solution (used all the skills), I made the ceiling solid throughout in New Formats now - also to disguise a little more where you actually need to interact with the ceiling (this was much easier to spot in the previous New-Formats version).

[kaywhyn]

Resolved all levels. The only changed levels that didn't break for me were Legend 22 and Legend 23. I'm guessing they were to block off Icho's backroute in the New Formats version? Legend 37 I say remains quite hard. I have a climber and builder leftover this time. Not sure if I have all intended tricks, though.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the replays, kaywhyn! I'll check them once I prepare the next update, which will arrive once Arty is done with the Rockstar rank.

Unless he gives up before that, of course , but I doubt that, he beat SEB Lems, after all - World Tour is a cakewalk compared to that. As I said, I even think Lemmings Open Air is easier than SEB Lems. So I'm curious to see whether Arty can beat that as well, but obviously not on camera - and he might just move away from Lemmings altogether for a long while after he's done with the World-Tour Let's Play. (Not just in terms of what he chooses to LP, but also in terms of what he plays in private.)

Side note: As I just commented under his latest World-Tour Let's Play video to give Arty a fair warning in advance regarding the not-so-family-friendly terrain shape of Rockstar 34 ...
I got consciously aware of the level number again. And started wondering whether I had indeed given this level the number 34 on purpose, back when I first put the pack together.

So to follow that up, I had to check whether Rule 34 of the internet also applies to Lemmings.

Yes. Yes it does. And no, it's not about the shape of the terrain .

So maybe Rockstar 34 might still be comparatively harmless, after all...

[Strato Incendus]

Uploaded a small update (link in the starting post is still the same) with fixes for two backroutes Arty found during his Let's Play of the Rockstar rank (Rockstar 04 and Rockstar 07; added steel on both).

I would have waited with this until he's done with the entire rank, but I had to do a fix in New Formats anyway, to make the level "In the shadows" playable again. So I might just as well do those fixes along with it.

Note that due to the latest Swimmer physics change in New Formats, the solution for "In the shadows" will be different in New Formats now. No changes to the Old-Formats version of that level. There might be a way to make it work in Old Formats, in turn, but I don't want to break the level for anyone who has found the perfectly valid intended solution in Old Formats. This is a change I didn't want to make in New Formats, but kind of had to. And I'm phrasing it this way because the New-Formats solution is actually more difficult than the Old-Formats one.