Sonic Race

[Flopsy]

I initially suggested this in Arty's Ocarina of Time topic but I don't want to hijack that topic anymore on this subject so I've started a separate topic on this.

This is more of a topic to see if there is any interest in doing this at some point in the future.

This is more or less the same thing where we voice chat to one another while doing the race and record our own attempts then I can make the attempts into a split screen video using my video editing software.

Anyone is welcome to join this provided they are able to record their race footage and even if you've never played the game before that's fine, to be honest blind attempts are more interesting to see than attempts from those who have played the game 50 times.

I also initially suggested racing Sonic 3 and Knuckles but I suppose any Sonic game is on the table potentially however I am only able to race a Sonic game which can be downloaded on Steam and I think that would be easier for everyone involved if we kept it limited to Steam downloadable Sonic games.

That means potential candidates are:
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic 3 and Knuckles
Sonic Adventure (Story run - all characters except Big perhaps?)
Sonic Adventure 2 (Story run - Hero, Dark and Final story?)
Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles - all in one go
(open to other suggestions)

Other Rules

I suppose as it's a race, Emeralds are optional. In cases where Super Sonic can be achieved, it is down to the player to decide whether the Emeralds are worth the time due to the time Super Sonic could save later on in the run.

If multiple characters could be chosen, I suppose the obvious exclusion is Knuckles in S3&K unless we all choose to play this character.

Whether Tails alone is allowed is to be debated because I think Tails can be quicker than Sonic in some areas, however Sonic has shield abilities.

I would like this to be an authentic race where you actually play the game as intended and run through the levels so speed running techniques like level wrapping and terrain manipulation will not be allowed.
Similarly, in Sonic Adventure, death barrier manipulation techniques will not be allowed (most commonly used in the Final Rush stages).

If there are anything else which you think is important then mention it

Anyway, is there any interest?

[Nessy]

Sign me up. I'm in!

I really think these races you and Arty are setting up will ton of fun. I've never done them before and I believe they will even help me come out of shell a little bit more

I'm pretty much down for any of the games mentioned and we can even add in Sonic Mania since it is also a Steam downloadable game. I have never played the Adventure games so if we do them it will be the exact scenario described here: "to be honest blind attempts are more interesting to see than attempts from those who have played the game 50 times". The only one I can't do is the multiple Sonic games at once. I am not really sure if I will have the stamina and/or energy to do that in one sitting, but I honestly think I'll be up for it in the end if others decide to do it

I had some additional thoughts that popped into my head while reading the post and here they are:

- I think it's a good idea to have the emeralds as optional items instead of banning them all-together. There is a lot of risk-vs-reward involved with that as a player needs to, as you mentioned, decide if it is worth it to go out of their way to collect them for the advantage of Super Sonic later on. It isn't a guaranteed win as a player can always fail a special stage and have to hunt for another emerald. You also never know when the player can run out of rings for Super Sonic and be left vulnerable, get crushed which is instant death even with Super Sonic, or die at a longer boss fight and be forced to replay it all over again (for example: Launch Base Act 2).

- If a player decides to use Super Sonic sometimes an extra boss stage is unlocked at the very end. Should they have to be completed as well in order to balance out the Super Sonic advantage or should a run be considered officially completed after the normal final bosses regardless if a player collected all of the emeralds or not?

- I think with this it would be better if everyone agreed to one character. This is mostly just in case one unintentionally has a bigger advantage than the others. Then again a good point was brought up that Sonic and Tails will have different pros and cons that might ultimately balance out.

- There is one slight concern I have that isn't a big deal but when a player reaches the goal they get more points if they got there faster. That means that a player can get to the goal at a faster time than the other players but since they have to wait for a larger score to count down the other players have the potential to catch up. Perhaps this is just a simple fix as we don't allow intentionally slowing down to do this. I think we have good trust here so no one will do it intentionally anyway. The only thing I can think of is that some people might go out of their way to collect rings or lives for the run (I'll definitely be one of those people) but I don't consider this intentionally trying to get a lower score to catch up to other players.

- I think that if the game has bonus stages they should also be allowed. It's another risk-vs-reward situation. You can risk them and get something useful out of it... or not and it was a time waster.

- I agree that we ban all glitches or unintended techniques. It'll keep the race simple and more accessible.

[Proxima]

Definitely up for this. I've taken part in similar races with the community from The Sonic Center before, and those were great fun, but they had a couple of problems: glitches were allowed, so those who knew how to perform them had a massive head start; always coming last wasn't much fun The Sonic community in general isn't much interested in glitchless runs, because most of the top players do know the glitches, and it's difficult to define what is a glitch and what isn't; the Lemmings community has a much stronger experience both with the fact that weeding out glitches can be done, and that it makes the game stronger and more interesting.

I would take part (if it's at a good time) in any of S1, S2, S3K, Mania, or Sonic 1 Game Gear. (Not S2GG or SCD as I still hope to return to my Let's Plays at some point, so I want to be able to do those blind.)

For the TSC races, we always voted before the race on which character and emeralds or no, so that everyone was racing the same goal. For this community, I'd say just go without emeralds (or make it optional, but I think practically everyone would choose not to go for them in that case). Most players here are less familiar with the games and might not be confident in being able to get all emeralds in a single run.

As Nessy points out, in the Genesis games if you reach the level goal between 24 and 29 seconds, it's better to wait until 30 seconds to avoid the 50,000 time bonus. It's not a big difference, and I would say if players know about this trick, just let them use it. It's part of the gameplay as-is and not really a glitch.

In TSC races, if you get a game over, you are allowed to use level select to get back to the stage you were on and keep playing. I say we also allow this, as you still get penalised for the GO by having to restart the level, and it's less severe than having to drop out altogether.

[geoo]

I'd be interested in such a race, might be difficult to schedule across timezones though with me being away on weekends quite often. I only know S1, S2, S3K and Sonic CD (played through Sonic Mania once, but don't have any recording set up on Windows).

Fixing a character in advance seems to make sense to me (in S3K then there's also the question if it's Sonic, should it be Sonic+Tails and if so, can you have input on the second controller to e.g. lift up Sonic through the level? Probably not). Glitches are heavily abused in the runs, but then (I presume?) we're amateurs and most of them are too tough to learn quickly and pull off reliably anyway, so trying them in a run would be more of a gamble than a sure advantage, which can be fun too. (I think in past S3K races even between pros skipping a bunch of glitches was often the better strategy in the end than being stuck trying to pull of a glitch). And I'm pretty sure any of us would lose clearly to the pros in a glitchless run as well, unless I'm underestimating you guys.

[607]

This is something where I'd like to join in!
I haven't played any of these games, but I know how they work (I've also got Sonic Advance). Tails would seem like the best character to me, as it's the easiest to avoid dying with. But dying might not be such a big deal, if you can restart from the level you ended at if you game over.

[Flopsy]

Ok a lot to get through

might be difficult to schedule across timezones though with me being away on weekends quite often

This could be the biggest obstacle, I think everyone who is interested should give general times where they would be available and in UTC (GMT) if possible. I know myself and Proxima are in (GMT+1) so what is everyone else's timezone? (Nessy, geoo and 607)

I know my availability will be all over the place, at least if some of us have static and consistent availability at particular times, that could be a nice jumping off point.

But dying might not be such a big deal, if you can restart from the level you ended at if you game over.

If you game over, we can allow you to use the level select "cheat" to get back to the level you were at if you have no continues left.

(I've also got Sonic Advance)

Sonic 1 Game Gear

Sonic Advance is more faster paced than the Genesis games I find, as long as you're comfortable with Sonic on Genesis/Mega Drive then you should be ok
Sadly we're sticking to Steam games, you're welcome to record the game another way on consoles if you want but you might be at a disadvantage due to the consoles being slower possibly, it would also raise a question whether that is a fair race really.
I also suggested sticking to Steam versions for simplicity to allow more people to take part. As long as you are able to record the game in some form, I'd say that is acceptable.

Glitches
Regarding glitches, I think we're all in agreement that they are out of the question in these races.
To clear up what Nessy said

There is one slight concern I have that isn't a big deal but when a player reaches the goal they get more points if they got there faster. That means that a player can get to the goal at a faster time than the other players but since they have to wait for a larger score to count down the other players have the potential to catch up. Perhaps this is just a simple fix as we don't allow intentionally slowing down to do this. I think we have good trust here so no one will do it intentionally anyway. The only thing I can think of is that some people might go out of their way to collect rings or lives for the run (I'll definitely be one of those people) but I don't consider this intentionally trying to get a lower score to catch up to other players.

Intentionally slowing down to avoid the higher score bonus is allowed, it's entirely up to you. As long as you are playing the game without glitches then it is legit.

Characters
Regarding characters, I could set up a poll about that but I'm not going to, I'd rather people replied with their choices. The options are
Sonic only
Tails only
Sonic and Tails (no Tails assist allowed)
Sonic and Tails (Tails assist allowed)

The reason I mention Tails assist is because geoo brought this up, this was implemented in Sonic Mania when playing as Sonic and Tails where you can press a button combination to get Tails flying and then you jump into him as Sonic, Tails will then carry Sonic for a limited amount of time until he can no longer fly. While in this state, you can move Tails carrying Sonic upwards quite a significant amount which is why this is a valid point of discussion, it's not urgent to the first race since it's a Sonic only game anyway.
I think it is possible to get this Tails assist to work in Steam versions of Sonic 3 and Knuckles.
I don't think anyone is objecting to excluding Knuckles either so we'll leave him out.

First Race
Me, Nessy and Proxima have already decided the first race will be Sonic 1 on Genesis, we thought it was best to start on the very first game and it's a nice way to ease into it on a significantly shorter Sonic game.
Again as mentioned above when it will be will be a question of availability.
So I assume there will be 5 of us (Myself, Proxima, Nessy, geoo and 607) and Sonic 1 should only take 1-2 hours depending on how good you are.


My availability
Luckily I do know when my days off are up until October 28th so I'm available all day (mostly!) on these days.
September: Tues 18, Wed 19, Sun 23, Thurs 27
October: Thurs 4, Fri 5, Sun 7, Mon 8, Tues 16, Wed 17, Fri 26, Sat 27

However on my working days.
On the following weeks, my shift pattern is
12pm-9pm: W/C 24th Sept and 15th October - I can do much later times on these weeks (up until possibly 12am).
6am-3pm: W/C 17th Sept and 8th October - I can do early evening times (4-8pm) on these weeks but not later than.
Any other weeks, it's more unpredictable than this.

[Simon]

If you ban glitches, you should define what is and what isn't a glitch. For Sonic 1 on the Genesis, the speedrun.com Sonic 1 community would ban in Glitchless:

• Zipping
  
• Level wrap
  
• Slope glitch
  
• Clipping through solid floors (do not skip the crusher in Marble 1, jump through the wall in Star Light 2, or skip the cutscene in Scrap Brain 2)

Definitions for these

I wouldn't bother banning glitches though, unless one of you has practised these exploits.

--  Simon

[Proxima]

I wouldn't dare to attempt it in a race, but I have practised the SL2 level wrap just out of curiosity to see what it felt like to do.

Not relevant to Sonic 1, but the screenwrap glitch is pretty easy to perform, and can take huge chunks out of levels like Sandopolis 2, so that's definitely a case where it's fairer to everyone to agree in advance on no glitches.

* * *

Anyway, my schedule. Unfortunately it's pretty packed, and the only days I can guarantee to have free time are Saturdays (except 27 October, when I'm attending my sister's wedding).

Monday to Thursday: I'm busy until 4pm. Allow half an hour on university days, a full hour on school placement days, for getting back to the house. After that I'm mostly free, but I could have assignments or preparation to work on, so I can't guarantee to be free on any particular day.

Friday: same, but some weekends I will travel back to Leeds, so I'm not free until I get home around 8pm. I don't decide in advance which weekends I will travel.

Saturday: if in Hull, free all day. If in Leeds, will be spending some time tidying up at home and seeing my dad, but it would be possible to set aside some time for racing.

Sunday: if I've travelled to Leeds then I'll travel back. Also I might have preparation to do.

* * *

Characters: I prefer to play Sonic+Tails as it's the "classic" mode. In Mania, Tails assist should be allowed as it's an integral part of the game mechanics. In S2 and S3, you can take advantage of having AI-controlled Tails around but you can't use a second controller.

[geoo]

I'm in UTC-7 right now. Generally I won't be able to tell if I'm free during the weekends until at best a few days before.
I could make time (if it's just an hour) at some point in my morning (say 8-9 am) or evening (no later than midnight, so that's probably useless unless you UK people get up at 7 am).

I'd prefer Sonic only. Sonic+Tails is kinda...pointless if don't use 2nd controller input (and don't want to pull off crazy glitches), and complicated if you do use 2nd controller input. Also opens up the questions whether in Sonic 2 the CPZ2 door skip is a glitch or not (the behaviour is rather logical).

So I presume you're not going to define more precisely what constitutes a glitch and just hope our common sense aligns on that?

Also I will play on emulator if I manage to join.

[607]

I'm not sure if I can join, and if I do I'm not sure if I can finish the race - especially as I haven't completed the game before. But I can play until 19 UTC on weekdays, and 20 UTC on the weekend. That's probably too early for most.

[Flopsy]

I'd prefer Sonic only. Sonic+Tails is kinda...pointless if don't use 2nd controller input (and don't want to pull off crazy glitches), and complicated if you do use 2nd controller input. Also opens up the questions whether in Sonic 2 the CPZ2 door skip is a glitch or not (the behaviour is rather logical).

So I presume you're not going to define more precisely what constitutes a glitch and just hope our common sense aligns on that?

I do know that glitch you're on about actually and I think it does count as a glitch because it's not really playing the game in fair spirits.

I'm ok with doing Sonic only if "and Tails" adds nothing but opening up the door to glitches.

I just assumed playing the game normally was all I needed to state and didn't need to explicitly state what counts as a glitch.

[Nessy]

I am available during the weekdays in the late afternoon but it's way too late for the people in some other time zones so I think this race might end up being a weekend thing where I am usually available pretty much any time during the weekend and this should give me the chance to align myself with the schedules of others interested in doing this race. I say usually but if I have times where I can't do something I would know in advance and it shouldn't suddenly pop up and throw a wench in our plans.

With regards to Sonic, Tails, or Sonic and Tails I really don't have a preference and I'm good with whatever everyone else wants to do.

I personally think we are somewhat overcomplicating the "glitch or not glitch" thing. I think we just shouldn't do something the developers didn't plan on the player doing regardless if it is logical behavior or not. I think it should just come down to a "who can play the game better" type of thing.

EDIT: I think one person (most likely Flopsy) should come up with all of the rules we need to follow during the race such as what is allowed and what is not allowed regardless of what it is. I think it is better than just saying "no glitches" allowed since it seems to be much more complicated than previously anticipated.

[Flopsy]

I think judging by what most have said, weekends are probably the best chance at us all being available.

geoo says he doesn't know whether he is free until a few days before a weekend. Proxima can be unavailable on weekends depending on where he is on the day (Hull or Leeds).

Saturdays are pretty busy for me during the day and 607 can't do later in the evenings so Saturdays will be pretty tight to satisfy everyone.

Sundays seem to be pretty relaxed for most, it's my best day as long as it's a day off for me listed in the post above. I'm off the Sunday coming in 3 days time so how is that looking for everyone?

[Proxima]

This Sunday won't be good for me; also I think it's too close to the Ocarina of Time race. Nessy might be interested in competing in both, and I certainly won't be competing in OoT but I might be interested in watching.

As I suggested in chat recently (and Nessy quoted this above), I think we should resolve the glitches discussion by having a race coordinator in charge of setting out the rules, rather than debate every single case. There are some that we won't reach agreement on, but the most important thing is to have a clear set of rules and not have too much of an argument over them; getting to the best or fairest possible set of rules really isn't all that important.

[Flopsy]

As I suggested in chat recently (and Nessy quoted this above), I think we should resolve the glitches discussion by having a race coordinator in charge of setting out the rules, rather than debate every single case. There are some that we won't reach agreement on, but the most important thing is to have a clear set of rules and not have too much of an argument over them; getting to the best or fairest possible set of rules really isn't all that important.

I wanted this to be a just for fun race, I didn't think there needed to be such an intense discussion over what is acceptable and what is not. I thought everyone knew the definition of what is acceptable and what is not, it's common sense really.
I feel there is such thing as planning things so meticulously that it sucks the fun out of the whole thing, it feels like that to me now.

I don't even do glitches when playing Sonic and have never practiced them so in my opinion what I am doing is not even considered a glitch in any way unless you have seen me perform one on my streams or YT videos? If we must have a race co-ordinator then I'm not it because I don't even know the list of glitches.
I was sceptical about planning this race because I knew it probably would not go ahead partially down to everyone having such busy schedules, I feel having further discussion about what is or isn't considered a glitch is further making this race unfeasible.