Strato Incendus's reasons against V12

[namida]

There's such a thing as too big for Nepster?

That one's easy. Nepster isn't a huge fan of big levels in the first place. I do suspect, however, there's no such thing as too hard for Nepster, provided the difficulty is 100% fair.

[Nepster]

Of course - I play through all my levels myself, after all . It's about 14 minutes of in-game time, so just slightly more than IchoTolot needed for solving your "Final Frustration" . You can probably solve the level much faster if you're good at multitasking, though. I simply did one side first, then the other side.

I thought I already mentioned it ago that I do not consider "Final Frustration" a good level at all! It was more of a proof-of-concept level, that such levels can be created, but it was most likely a mistake to include it in NepsterLems. And "Final Frustration" has "only" a width of 1592, not the 4000 pixels you use. That's about 2,5 times as big, so if it takes about 40 minutes to solve your level...

As expected, the editor couldn't load the level because some tilesets or objects were missing. For the level larger than 2400 pixels, I didn't get any error messages; so the error for "All the World's a Stage" had nothing to do with the size, at least. And it didn't simply remove the missing objects, the entire level was not loaded at all.

So I'd have to go looking for whatever single piece might be missing - and stuff like that is really a pain, ...

Please refer to the editor version you use, because on the current version V1.10, I cannot reproduce your problems (apart from the size restriction):
1) When trying to load a level with unknown pieces, it displays a message box listing exactly what pieces are missing and in what styles they should be.
2) Even if pieces are missing, the level is loaded and the missing pieces are just removed from the level.

PS: I now split the topic as per Simon's suggestion.

[Strato Incendus]

I thought I already mentioned it ago that I do not consider "Final Frustration" a good level at all! It was more of a proof-of-concept level, that such levels can be created, but it was most likely a mistake to include it in NepsterLems. And "Final Frustration" has "only" a width of 1592, not the 4000 pixels you use. That's about 2,5 times as big, so if it takes about 40 minutes to solve your level...

It does not - as I said before, it takes about 14 minutes of ingame time (not 40 ), and only if you do one side first, then the other. With multitasking, it will probably be even shorter than Final Frustration. Also, 14 minutes ingame time doesn't mean 14 minutes in real time, because those 14 minutes ingame include all the builders. That's 10 seconds which can usually be skipped by hitting the space bar.

Please refer to the editor version you use, because on the current version V1.10, I cannot reproduce your problems (apart from the size restriction):

It is version 1.10, and I always get the message that the editor can't find the translation table. This doesn't simply remove all tiles from the missing graphic set from the level, but the entire level won't load up at all.

I do suspect, however, there's no such thing as too hard for Nepster, provided the difficulty is 100% fair.

That's certainly the case for "The Grand Puzzle". At that point, the player should already know about all skill-combination tricks they might need for solving the level.

[IchoTolot]

It is version 1.10, and I always get the message that the editor can't find the translation table. This doesn't simply remove all tiles from the missing graphic set from the level, but the entire level won't load up at all.

I would recommend sending this level to Nepster to inspect.

[Strato Incendus]

It does not only happen on one level; I tried another one featuring the (yet unconverted) Ancient tileset, and the same error appeared, even though that level included much fewer different graphic sets.

Since the Ancient tileset is so essential to Lemmings World Tour, I may end up converting it myself. But as long as the final level will have to be exchanged for a possible New Formats version, too, this isn't high on my list, since it will take a lot of time to come up with an appropriate replacement.

Who made the Ancient tileset, anyway? It's credited to Gronkling, who only claimed credit for his first five graphic sets, but it isn't a Sonic tileset either...

[Nepster]

It does not - as I said before, it takes about 14 minutes of ingame time (not 40 ), and only if you do one side first, then the other. With multitasking, it will probably be even shorter than Final Frustration.

Sorry, I misunderstood you there. I thought you referred with the 14 minutes only to Final Frustration. And just for the records: During the years after finishing NepsterLems, I slightly changed my opinion on level design. And one big change was, that I now any level that usually takes above 5 minutes far too long. And even 5 minutes is stretching it...

It is version 1.10, and I always get the message that the editor can't find the translation table. This doesn't simply remove all tiles from the missing graphic set from the level, but the entire level won't load up at all.

Sorry, I got it wrong what you tried to do and tested loading a new-formats level with missing styles.
If you try to load an old-formats level and get "missing translation table", then add in the folder "data/translation" an empty text file with the name "[old-style-name].nxtt". This way you can convert your levels without actually having the new-formats version of the style and the converter will simply remove all unknown pieces. Yes, this is slightly awkward, but as these conversion tools are so rarely used and we offer translation tables for all the styles anyone needed up to now, neither namida nor I felt it worthwhile to really polish this further.

But as long as the final level will have to be exchanged for a possible New Formats version, too, this isn't high on my list, since it will take a lot of time to come up with an appropriate replacement.

Please read namida's post again: Only the editor cannot handle levels larger than 2400 pixels. This restriction does not apply to the new-formats NeoLemmix player! And if you use the pack conversion tool, you will be able to convert your final level properly. Of course then you still have the problem how to modify it, if you ever have to do that...

[Strato Incendus]

Ah, okay, thanks for the reminder! The pack conversion tool will hopefully provide a way out then, as far as the last level is concerned.

The Ancient tileset, among others, will still have to be converted first, however, because otherwise the new pack won't have a style to refer to. As I said, I might do that tileset conversion myself at some time, but it isn't high on my list. The pack needs to be completed in the first place, and then there needs to be a sufficient incentive to create substitute New Formats-only levels (i.e. Jumpers and Shimmiers, or counting exits) for those which are going to get removed.

Regarding your change of philosophy: The Groupie rank is based on what patterns I can extract from other forum members' packs. GigaLems for example also contains lots of troll elements, like hidden traps and brick-covered exits - things GigaLem has now spoken out against in one of Arty's SEB Lems LP videos. But if that's what you guys released, that's what I have to work with!

As far as I know, NepsterLems is your most recent release? Return of the Tribes is older, isn't it?

So as you have probably guessed by now, "The Grand Puzzle" is a 20-of-everything level, thereby a homage to "Final Frustration", and one of the levels in style of "you" . It may not be representative of your current level design anymore, but it is based on a lot of what I could gather from NepsterLems. (In fact, it even includes a structure from one of your levels, "Diagonal Disarray", you might have noticed.)

If there are any more recent levels of yours I should look at, let me know!

[Nepster]

As far as I know, NepsterLems is your most recent release? Return of the Tribes is older, isn't it?

Nope, NepsterLems was first. Return of the Tribes is the ongoing project for which I released some example levels. However there are three caveats:
1) With taking over all of the NeoLemmix programming, I don't have time for Return of the Tribes any more. Hopefully this will change in the future...
2) Some of the levels will be removed in the future, because I consider them horrible.
3) Almost none of the levels is backroute-free.
Anyway, most of NepsterLems (especially the Comet, Planet, Sun and Neutron Star ranks) can still be seen as examples of levels I consider good.

Regarding your change of philosophy: The Groupie rank is based on what patterns I can extract from other forum members' packs. GigaLems for example also contains lots of troll elements, like hidden traps and brick-covered exits - things GigaLem has now spoken out against in one of Arty's SEB Lems LP videos. But if that's what you guys released, that's what I have to work with!

Interesting concept. If you are up for a challenge, then target instead the opinions stated as feedback to other level packs.

[Strato Incendus]

I already asked everyone here on the forum for what they themselves believe to be their signature level design elements. But actions speak louder than words, of course, so what people say they like - be it in this thread or in the form of feedback for other forum users - isn't necessarily what they put in their own packs...