Strato Incendus's reasons against V12

[Strato Incendus]

Yes, it should work in the newer old-formats versions like V10 and most likely even in V1.47. But almost certainly not in V1.43.
However I still encourage everyone to move to the new-formats version.

That's not even possible yet for Lemmings World Tour, because not all graphic sets have been converted yet, and I used pretty much all of them .

@Crane: That's precisely what I've done in LWT with every trick I know of .

[Nepster]

That's not even possible yet for Lemmings World Tour, because not all graphic sets have been converted yet, and I used pretty much all of them .

It's somewhat off-topic, but what graphic styles are missing yet?

[nin10doadict]

As far as the tilesets go, I have yet to convert my cat trap or my TA Lava set over to new formats yet.
I'm planning to include the cat trap in a sort of miscellaneous tileset containing some various things, so I won't be releasing it for new formats for a while yet because that would spoil some of the trickery I'm using for troll levels.
Tee hee

The lava set, though... I don't really have an excuse for not converting that yet, apart from laziness. I should fix that soon...

[Strato Incendus]

@Nepster: As far as I know, some of Gronkling's graphic sets are also not included in New Formats yet?

[Nepster]

I have nine styles by Gronkling at the moment, so could you please specify which ones you think are missing.

[Strato Incendus]

Ah, okay, I only have five of Gronkling's styles in my New Formats folder - Beast, Cyber, Menace, Minimal, and Slime.

But as nin10doadict has already said, one of his graphic sets is also still missing, plus my own Instruments graphic set on top of that, so... no chance of LWT being released for New Formats any time soon .

I also made the promise that every level in LWT which would get lost due to the formats change (meaning levels containing radiation, slowfreeze, and/or anti-splat pads) would be replaced by a level only possible in New Formats - i.e. by one featuring Jumpers and/or Shimmiers . So there won't be a New Formats version of Lemmings World Tour untill those skills are available, because I won't release an incomplete version of the pack. At this point in time, a New Formats release of the pack would simply contain fewer levels than the original one, without any compensation, i.e. be inferior, and I don't see any point in that.

And given you mentioned in the appropriate thread for Jumpers and Shimmiers that there are still many bugs remaining in New Formats, I also don't see the point in releasing content for a version that is currently still less stable than what we already have. My gripes with the aesthetics of New Formats (the squashed level preview screen and the "outside-of-the-game" window for level selection) just go on top of that .

I know you want to hone and finetune New Formats until it may ultimately come out on top of Old Formats, with regards to features - but it isn't in that place yet, and pack creators need to rely on consistency, especially when working on larger offerings.

But to go back to topic, yes, I can confirm that this basher behaviour also works in Old Formats, and it has now become part of the pack. Thanks a lot to all of you for the inspiration!

[Nepster]

Ah, okay, I only have five of Gronkling's styles in my New Formats folder - Beast, Cyber, Menace, Minimal, and Slime.

These are all ported by now.

But as nin10doadict has already said, one of his graphic sets is also still missing, plus my own Instruments graphic set on top of that, so... no chance of LWT being released for New Formats any time soon .

Well, Wafflem does lots of conversions of existing styles. So if you want to have your style converted, perhaps say pretty pretty please to him.

And given you mentioned in the appropriate thread for Jumpers and Shimmiers that there are still many bugs remaining in New Formats, I also don't see the point in releasing content for a version that is currently still less stable than what we already have. My gripes with the aesthetics of New Formats (the squashed level preview screen and the "outside-of-the-game" window for level selection) just go on top of that .

Well, in my view the new-formats is already better than the old-formats - if not for the amount of in-game object types, then at least regarding UX-improvements. And yes, the old-formats is indeed more stable, but mainly because noone will ever fix all the bugs in there. And note that many of the bug reports I get now also apply to the old-formats version.

... and pack creators need to rely on consistency, especially when working on larger offerings.

It's been almost a year now since the introduction of the new-formats, and how many breaking changes have been in the meantime? Two or three fixes to physics-bugs and the multiple-teleporter-receiver issue, for which I implemented a fix to avoid breaking level whenever possible. So I would say: Far less than during a year of development in the old-formats, where we suddenly changed sizes of updraft trigger areas and even how they actually worked! And even further back, we disabled direct drops to exits. Just from one version to the next! So I really wonder what else I have to do, to convince you that the new-formats is pretty stable physics-wise?
My guess is, that there is one main reason why you view the old-formats as so incredibly stable: You found this forum during a time when the last old-formats was released and namida and I were working on the first new-formats version, which was a pretty long period where no changes at all were made. And then you experienced the huge discussions around that one huge breaking change...

[Gronkling]

i only have 5 tilesets (Beast, Cyber, Menace, Minimal, and Slime), i dont remember making any of those weird sonic sprite rips that are credited to me, and i would much rather they are credited to the sonic team or sega or something rather than me

[IchoTolot]

I am also on Nepster's side here.

Of course in the initial phase of the new format there were a ton of bugs, errors and misdesigns + a few bigger changes had to be made (deadly ceiling). Still this was nothing compared to "the great physics clean-up" in the old format that Strato missed. Trust me, tons of levels and replays had to be adjusted back then (example: the builder had slight behavior changes).


Now I would call the new format totally stable and at a much higher level of user-friendly functionality. Only a few non-critical things are left to fix: Scroller texts not working I think is the most ugly one (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3641.0)

I even argue it being superior in content compared to the old format:

- New additional slower RRs at the designers's disposal (as the old range is now 50-99).
- The editor and player UI has improved.
- No NL restarts upon switching packs anymore, with pack themed menus still being there.
- Improved load + replay check times.
- Temporary start markers for hatches + pre-placers
- New format editor easier to handle + new tools for faster level creation (example: tile grid).
- Tileset/Level/pack changes are easier now thanks to single file format.
- Nearly are all tilesets are included with the standard styles download.
- More tilesets compared to the old format.

I only point I see against it (if you see value these features to begin with); is the removal of Radiation/Slowfreeze. That alone I would not call enough reasons against it. If you promised levels as substitutes: Use the new RRs or the new tilesets as an example and you have your new format replacements.
I would even call the old format a handicap for your pack in terms of usability due to the new features I listed above. Of course, it's all your choice in the end and I can only give advice.

[Strato Incendus]

@Gronkling: Well, Old Formats also credits Electric, Ancient, and Digital to you. Especially the Ancient tileset appears in pretty much all of my city levels. So whoever made that one contributed hugely to the development of LWT!

Well, Wafflem does lots of conversions of existing styles. So if you want to have your style converted, perhaps say pretty pretty please to him.

I think I'll try that myself first, the graphic set conversion tool is available, after all, and I didn't include anything outlandish in it. I just want to be certain that I won't change anything about the Instruments tileset anymore before I upload it for either format.

Well, in my view the new-formats is already better than the old-formats - if not for the amount of in-game object types, then at least regarding UX-improvements

Did I miss any in-game objects? Because apart from custom Lemming sprites and a couple of new graphic sets, I don't see any new object types (as counting exits would be) in New Formats yet.

With regard to UX-improvements, I have no idea what that is...

Customisable water pond width, which has been raised as a new feature by some, has never been an issue for me either - if I really need a small gap, I bury the remaining pixels in the adjacent terrain or steel.

So I really wonder what else I have to do, to convince you that the new-formats is pretty stable physics-wise

Well, since no-one is going to change anything about Old Formats ever again, that's the most stable and consistent thing ever now, isn't it?

I'm willing to discard that "safe ground" once New Formats actually has new ground to offer. Merely the fact that it's "stable, too" doesn't cut it if there isn't any specific upside to New Formats. Except that it's trendy now, and there is somewhat of a peer pressure to use it.

And I do use the New Formats player of course, for packs which were released exclusively for it. But not for my own, and if it's just for that new level preview screen that I hate so much...

With regards to the editor - even though the Avira issue was easily fixed - have you seen Arty's level creation video? I wasn't even aware that this feature wasn't present in New Formats yet, but like Arty, I really made use of that "select a piece --> press F9 --> change it for a piece from the same tileset" feature a lot, especially in Lemmings World Tour, since a lot of the levels feature heavy tileset mixing.

- New additional slower RRs at the designers's disposal (as the old range is now 50-99).

Interesting corner-case - I never felt the need for that before, since it's not possible in original Lemmings either to lower the release rate below the starting one. In cases where I really need the whole range, I just set the release rate to 1 and let the player figure out when to raise or lower it. It thereby becomes part of the puzzle, rather than the starting release rate giving away a hint already. Of course, you could imagine levels where you want a high release rate in the beginning and a lower one later on, but no such design has popped up in my head yet. It's certainly a good feature to have, but not critical for me.

- No NL restarts upon switching packs anymore, with pack themed menus still being there.

Yeah, that's actually a downside for me. I prefer the level selection window to be part of the game itself, rather than a standard Windows window opening up - not only when I actually want to switch packs, but simply for selecting a level. It reminds me more of when I was playing WinLems back in the day, which was overall much... "cheaper", for lack of a better word.

The level preview screen was changed for the same, purely mechanical reasons. But the aesthetics suffered from it, in my view, and given that I don't really care about talismans, even though I included some for the first time in LWT, I don't really see why optional talisman info on a couple of levels necessitated that huge waste of space on all other level preview screens.

- New format editor easier to handle + new tools for faster level creation (example: tile grid).

That's highly subjective and dependent on what you're used to, isn't it? For example, I find it very irritating that, in case of copying an existing tile, it is inserted into the level a couple of pixels-off, rather than exactly on the copied piece. Of course, the displacement makes it easier to spot that it's a new tile, but especially when creating "blocky" structures, I now have to adjust for that misplacement every time, rather than just quickly hitting "Strg + C, Strg + V" a couple of times.

And yeah, there's that tile replacement feature via F9 I mentioned above .

- More tilesets compared to the old format.

Well, that's mainly just a result of the collective having moved towards New Formats, thereby creating their graphic sets exclusively for it . Since there is forward compatibility from Old Formats to New (except for the culled objects), but not the other way around, I'd always create any given level or graphic set in Old Formats first, with the option of converting it to New Formats, than barring myself from that option from the getgo.

I also write all my music in the notation software Guitar Pro 5 for that same reason, even though I also own version 6 and 7. The latter I only use when I specifically need certain features only they have to offer (like writing stuff with 8-stringed guitars or similar).

Use the new RRs or the new tilesets as an example and you have your new format replacements.

If I really wanted to force that, I'd simply use my custom Egyptian Lemmings . But just like radiation and slowfreeze wouldn't be reason for you to keep using Old Formats, mere new aesthetics as provided by new graphic sets or Lemmings sprites don't suffice for me to do the same - even if I created some of those Lemmings sprites myself , I don't feel any particular urge to use them yet.


Funnily enough, the whole idea to Lemmings World Tour came up in context of New Formats; in fact, it was supposed to be created specifically for New Formats: The core concept of song-based levels was inspired by the very first two level ideas I had: "Taking orders from Van Halen" (featuring the Jumper) and "Keep Holding On" (featuring the Shimmier). These are also two of the levels which are going to eventually appear in the New Formats version of LWT: Probably, these Jumper- and Shimmier-introductory levels are going to replace the current radiation- and slowfreeze-introduction levels - 1 for 1.

But these aren't the only levels which are going to be affected - for example, the removal of fake objects makes the "Irish Rover" level pretty pointless, because the Highland hatches I put in the haul as barrels are going to disappear. I also used the candles on various exits for diverse artistic purposes, like Arty. So while the merging with the exit is generally convenient, and I would have welcomed it for a pack like "Pit Lems", simply because it means less work, for a pack with a more artistic approach, it's better to have more smaller pieces which can be moved independently from each other .


On a final note: I just tried opening the last level of "Lemmings World Tour" in New Formats, given that it is a very big level which, despite featuring only two tilesets, sometimes leads to slow performance of the NeoLemmix player (other times, it runs smoothly). I wanted to check whether maybe New Formats would run more smoothly in general. Some people had also mentioned that NeoLemmix crashing due to too many different graphic sets being used in succession would be a less frequent phenomenon. This is something LWT is of course very susceptible to, so I can't put too many "city levels" with heavy graphic set mixing back-to-back (at least not without the player potentially having to restart). So that would make a convincing case for New Formats, of course.

The result: New Formats can't even open the level - it cuts it in half, because it exceeds the maximum width of 2400 pixels.

Since that level is one of my favourite ones, the fact that a New Formats version of LWT would have to exclude this grand finale really doesn't raise my motivation of converting the pack any time soon .

[Nepster]

With regards to the editor - even though the Avira issue was easily fixed - have you seen Arty's level creation video? I wasn't even aware that this feature wasn't present in New Formats yet, but like Arty, I really made use of that "select a piece --> press F9 --> change it for a piece from the same tileset" feature a lot, especially in Lemmings World Tour, since a lot of the levels feature heavy tileset mixing.

This is basically just a matter of getting used to. If I now start the old NeoLemmix editor, I soon rage about basically having to use that weird replacement feature.

That's highly subjective and dependent on what you're used to, isn't it? For example, I find it very irritating that, in case of copying an existing tile, it is inserted into the level a couple of pixels-off, rather than exactly on the copied piece.

Duplicating pieces was added in one of the last two updates (not sure which it was). You'll get that now by pressing just "C".

The result: New Formats can't even open the level - it cuts it in half, because it exceeds the maximum width of 2400 pixels.

That's true, because I had to place some size restrictions in the editor - just because C#-controls require it. As the maximum I found so far was around 1600 pixels, I thought that adding 50% on top would surely be enough... You definitely have a gift of pushing the boundaries to places noone has ever gone to.
PS: Have you ever given a thought to the poor guy who has to play through that level? How long does it take for a lemming just to move from one side to the other? At least 2,3 minutes, and that's not counting using any skills...

[IchoTolot]

Nepster was first, but well then I'll do the double answer.

With regards to the editor - even though the Avira issue was easily fixed - have you seen Arty's level creation video? I wasn't even aware that this feature wasn't present in New Formats yet, but like Arty, I really made use of that "select a piece --> press F9 --> change it for a piece from the same tileset" feature a lot, especially in Lemmings World Tour, since a lot of the levels feature heavy tileset mixing.

This is simply a matter of adapting your level creation style. Once you have adapted, you will be much faster. I've made the same development, you just need to actually start using the new system as standard.

I find it very irritating that, in case of copying an existing tile, it is inserted into the level a couple of pixels-off, rather than exactly on the copied piece. Of course, the displacement makes it easier to spot that it's a new tile, but especially when creating "blocky" structures, I now have to adjust for that misplacement every time, rather than just quickly hitting "Strg + C, Strg + V" a couple of times.

Then you are just using the wrong function. Only press "C" --> the selected tiles will be copied on the spot. This is even faster than "Strg + C, Strg + V".

The result: New Formats can't even open the level - it cuts it in half, because it exceeds the maximum width of 2400 pixels.

Then I would advice even in the old format version to shorten the landscape. At some point it really gets too large to play and the experience suffers.

[namida]

Then I would advice even in the old format version to shorten the landscape. At some point it really gets too large to play and the experience suffers.

O_O There's such a thing as too big for IchoTolot?

However, it should be noted - 2400px wide is purely a limit of the editor. NeoLemmix itself shouldn't have this limitation; so if you play the level directly out of the convertor (rather than using the editor at any stage), it should work. But I do agree with what Nepster and IchoTolot said - in practice, any level that big is overkill, even if you can somehow get it to work. (And it should be noted that IchoTolot in particular is a huge fan of large levels, so if even he thinks it's too big...)

The only reason I'd suggest trying to play it that way, is for your original intent with the conversion: To see if it runs any better. (And in regards to the answer - it might run a little bit better, probably not hugely so, but it should load a LOT faster, and yes, it shouldn't crash in cases where the old-format version might have.)

[Strato Incendus]

PS: Have you ever given a thought to the poor guy who has to play through that level? How long does it take for a lemming just to move from one side to the other? At least 2,3 minutes, and that's not counting using any skills...

Of course - I play through all my levels myself, after all . It's about 14 minutes of in-game time, so just slightly more than IchoTolot needed for solving your "Final Frustration" . You can probably solve the level much faster if you're good at multitasking, though. I simply did one side first, then the other side.

The only reason I'd suggest trying to play it that way, is for your original intent with the conversion: To see if it runs any better. (And in regards to the answer - it might run a little bit better, probably not hugely so, but it should load a LOT faster, and yes, it shouldn't crash in cases where the old-format version might have.)

I tried loading a level that brought Old Formats to its knees - the "All the World's a Stage" level where I combine the different architectural sites from various world cities - simply to see whether New Formats could deal with it.

As expected, the editor couldn't load the level because some tilesets or objects were missing. For the level larger than 2400 pixels, I didn't get any error messages; so the error for "All the World's a Stage" had nothing to do with the size, at least. And it didn't simply remove the missing objects, the entire level was not loaded at all.

So I'd have to go looking for whatever single piece might be missing - and stuff like that is really a pain, because of course, when building my heavy-mixing levels, I just randomly take stuff from different tilesets that look most akin to what I currently need. I try to always take certain objects that look alike, e.g. updrafts, from the same tileset, but this doesn't work for all types of objects, of course.

O_O There's such a thing as too big for IchoTolot?

There's such a thing as too big for Nepster?

I'll put an image up in the Lemmings World Tour thread for those who want to spoil it for themselves... I did my best to make the landscape non-repetitive, so that lots of different skills are needed, including some neat little tricks.

[Simon]

Please split this topic into "Basher moves upwards at 2:1 angle" and "Strato's reasons against NL v12".

-- Simon