[NO-BUG][DISCUSSION][PLAYER] Basher can move upwards using an odd configuration

[Gronkling]

Setup: Mine through a one-way wall, then build up the miners shaft, only leaving a few pixels of air between the bridge and floor. If you bash through this, the basher will move upwards fairly unexpectedly

Demonstration:


Is this behaviour intended? It's odd enough that even I would feel unfair using it in a level right now.

[IchoTolot]

Is the OWW nessesary in this setup, or does it also function without a OWW?

EDIT: I think I answered it in my head: The OWW is treated roughly like steel for the basher --> slight upwards movements are possible to give the basher leeway for rough steel. The builder acts like tunnel filler to keep the basher going.

[Simon]

To be consistent, this must work with steel instead of OWWs, too. Answer to this:

16:34 <IchoTolot> @ SimonNa: Yes this works with steel
16:34 <SimonNa> IchoTolot: thanks

Why is the air between bridge and slope necessary? The basher should never depend on this air; instead, he should create during his swing any air necessary for anything. Answer to this:

16:34 <Gronkling> it doesnt require the air, thats just there or the bridge wouldnt be high enough afaik
16:35 <SimonNa> Gronkling: thanks

The upwards movement itself is explicitly allowed in the code (LemGame.pas, line 3368, in current commit 8614164).

-- Simon

[IchoTolot]

Ok, Gronkling and I discussed this a little:

We both agree that the combination seems a bit odd, but still we still think it's acceptable. + I would even call it a neat trick.

Explanations:

- This would also work using a steel slope with terrain on it. So the OWW acts intended like steel to the basher.

- As Simon said: The upwards movement itself is explicitly allowed in the code (LemGame.pas, line 3368, in current commit 8614164). The max angle was discussed before in a topic.

- As the miner tunnel is too high, a builder is nessesary to keep the rising basher going. This builder here is just high enough to reach the basher check line.

- In reverse, downwards movement would also be possible: A downwards bash in a fencer tunnel needs no set-up for this. A downwards bash in a miner tunnel would need a higher builder.

So, as it is maybe a bit weird to see, it is 100% logical physics-wise. I think the main reason it seems weird is that OWWs are not really seen as steel most of the time and the extra builder filling is at the very low edge of the basher checks. Again, using a steel slope instead of OWWs and I would argue that it doesn't seem weird at all anymore.

[Nepster]

I agree with IchoTolot: Assuming we are fine with bashers being able to move upwards on steel, this is a logical consequence. Even though it seems weird at first glance...

[Crane]

I would say this is acceptable, but I wouldn't put this in an official pack because I don't think anyone will think of that outside of this forum topic.  Saying that, putting it in an "Extra" rank that allows tricks like this and the Blocker trick to stop a Digger in mid-air (although that one is much more logically deducible) would be okay.

[nin10doadict]

It doesn't seem unintended to me either. This upward movement of bashers isn't something unexpected when they bash toward a pixel or two of steel or one-way arrows that's jutting up. This is just pushing that behavior to an extreme. Neat tech!

Interesting that we are still finding new tricks to use in this game.

[Strato Incendus]

Does this work in Old Formats, too? ^^ Seems like a nice trick to use in one of the last levels I still have to create for Lemmings World Tour...

[Nepster]

Yes, it should work in the newer old-formats versions like V10 and most likely even in V1.47. But almost certainly not in V1.43.
However I still encourage everyone to move to the new-formats version.

[Crane]

I would say that if you're going to use this trick, to introduce it somehow, like with the level used in the animation on the first post, and a name like "Against the grain" or something like that.

[namida]

Yes, it should work in the newer old-formats versions like V10 and most likely even in V1.47. But almost certainly not in V1.43.
However I still encourage everyone to move to the new-formats version.

To the contrary, it (or at least something similar) should work as far back as V1.15 or so, though the exact physics of it will be different (for example, for a long time there was more or less no maximum slope the basher could ascend, just as long as its steel / OWW checks didn't get triggered). One of two solutions to a LPIII level (and the *only* known solution at the time of release; another was found later) relies on the basher upwards movement, albeit with a different setup and only gaining one (maybe occasionally, two) pixels of height; and NeoLemmix was at around 1.15 or so when LPIII was first released.

I recall the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack having a level that specifically draws attention to that bashers might move upwards if there's a gentle steel slope. This is just an extension of that, using OWWs instead of steel (which, physics wise, have very little difference from steel outside of their direction/skill dependency).

[Proxima]

I would say this is acceptable, but I wouldn't put this in an official pack because I don't think anyone will think of that outside of this forum topic.  Saying that, putting it in an "Extra" rank that allows tricks like this and the Blocker trick to stop a Digger in mid-air (although that one is much more logically deducible) would be okay.

Not sure what you mean by "an official pack".

This ties in with previous discussion of tricks in general. NeoLemmix is an unusual case because it has no "main" set of levels, so every pack has to make an individual decision about which tricks are okay to use with no prior introduction and which should be showcased earlier in the pack. In my view, there are no right and wrong answers to this, so we shouldn't use judgemental words like "acceptable" and "okay". If a behaviour is so weird that, as a community, we agree it's not fair to use it in levels -- then it should be patched out of the game.

Conversely, if the devs and community accept a particular behaviour, then it's part of the game and okay to be used. (I admit, I personally don't like the decision to allow bashers moving upwards, but hey, it's not my call.) There's always the risk that someone will get stuck on your level because they didn't know the behaviour; but there's also the chance that someone will get stuck for a while, discover the behaviour because they realise it has to be the solution, and come away with a really positive experience of your level. (Some examples for me include "Compression Method 1" from the original game and "Attack of the Subconscious" from usermade levels.)

[Crane]

My bad for using the word "official".  I meant something outside of a standalone or competition level.

As for Compression Method 1... the first time I played that level was on a version of Lemmings that had a bug that allowed me to partly dig through the steel on ther right, so I could make a safe drop height!

I think the thing with the basher climbing upwards is that it's not straightforward to patch out because it's exploiting the behaviour to give them some leeway when approaching steel that's only just above floor height.

As for knowing and not knowing the behaviour, well, that depends purely on the level.  "No added colours or lemmings", for example, you quickly discover that the only way to stop the lemmings from falling onto the bottom level is to use the Blocker, and you only have the Miners left (the Climbers aren't going to do anything), which starts to point you to the solution of undermining the Blocker.  When faced with a Miner, Builder and Basher though, I can't see the upward Basher trick presenting itself that obviously, especially in regards to the Builder placement.

[Proxima]

It would be straightforward to patch out -- the alternative is to make bashers stop when they hit steel/OWW in front of them, always, and so they would never move upwards. That's the behaviour I would prefer, but the devs already decided they prefer bashers to be able to move upwards.

Another consideration is earlier levels using related tricks. If a pack has a level where a jagged steel piece makes a basher move upwards, and separately, a level using builders to make a miner continue over a gap, it's not too much of a stretch to put the two together and come up with the one-way wall trick from the first post.

[GigaLem]

I rather keep this neat behavior, If we can have downwards moving bashers, how about we keep the upwards moving ones. I once made a level that required an upwards basher