[SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel

[Nepster]

I am not suggesting here to go back to the L1 order and add the new skills at the end!

The current order is:
Walker, Climber, Swimmer, Floater, Glider, Disarmer, Bomber, Stoner, Blocker, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger, Cloner

My suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner

Here are the reasons:
1) The walker skill is not a permanent skill, so should not be grouped with them. Actually if there is any other similar skill, then it would be the cloner, because they are non-permanent skills not modifying any terrain (with the blocker being the only other one).
2) Climbers, floaters and gliders share one similarity, namely they deal with high walls (just going on opposite directions). On the other hand swimmers and disarmers are similar, because both deal with previously deadly objects. So I would like to move the swimmer after floaters and gliders.
3) I would like to have blockers and bombers next to each other, because quite often they are used on one and the same lemming. On the other hand grouping bombers and stoners as the lemming-killing skills makes sense, too. So I suggest to move the blocker in front of the bomber.
This has the additional advantage that the blocker (which is usually applied first) now comes before the bomber (something I never understood about the L1 oder).
4) In my opinion there is no intuitive order of the four terrain removal skills (apart from the bomber). So I would suggest moving the fencer after the digger, to keep the "basher-miner-digger" oder that we are all used to.

A much more radical suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Stoner, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Bomber, Blocker, Walker, Cloner

Again the list of reasons (in addition to the ones above):
1) This groups the skills as "permanent", "terrain adding", "terrain removing", "lemming-only"
2) However it splits up the two lemming-killing skills, which might be a downside.

PS: This suggestion was triggered by the suggestion to reorder the skills in the editor, because I don't want to reorder them twice.

[IchoTolot]

My suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner

This sounds good to me.

[Strato Incendus]

Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner

I'm also in favour of this one! The fact that the bomber is a destructive and the stoner a creative skill with regards to terrain is usually much less relevant than the fact that both are "lemming destructive" .

[Proxima]

Link to Lix discussion of the same issue (note: the links to "Clam's suggestion" and "my suggestion" in the first post no longer work).

I think the reordering is good, but I have a couple of quibbles. The fencer is a reverse miner, so I prefer keeping those two adjacent. The walker is the hardest to place, because of its multiple uses. In Lix it's considered a movement skill and grouped with the runner and jumper (of which the runner is also a permanent skill, so this group goes adjacent to the other permanents). In current NL, it's most similar to the cloner (both result in a lemming going the opposite direction; both can be meaningfully assigned to any worker, albeit with different results). But other movement skills (jumper and shimmier) are proposed to be added in the future. Where would these be placed?

[Strato Incendus]

Okay, the fencer is a fair point. Plus, in the original skill panel a bomber comes before the blocker. I think we can agree that in levels featuring only the classic skills (which there are still a lot of), the skill order should be the same that it has always been.

Which would mean:

Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Bomber, Stoner, Blocker, Stacker, Builder, Platformer, Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger, Walker, Cloner

I'd put the Stacker after the Blocker and before Builder and Platformer, because it usually acts as a blocking-type skill as well. This is also the reason why I'd put the Stoner between Bomber and Blocker.

Platformers and Bashers both move strictly horizontally, which is why I'd group them together.

The Fencer comes after the Basher, because it originally (in L2) was more similar to a Basher; plus, Miner and Digger both move downward, so it would feel weird for me to have the Fencer in between the Miner and the Digger.

The Shimmier could then be added e.g. between Climber and Floater, because it's a horizontally moving Climber - but of course it's not permanent.

That's why in combination with the Jumper, it would probably make more sense to put Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Cloner at the end (in that order).

[GigaLem]

Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?

[namida]

Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?

Probably. And I recall myself mentioning several times (though I don't know if any newer decisions by Nepster might have gone against this, so if so, ignore me), that custom pickup skill objects are not a good idea, firstly in case of changes like this, and secondly because them being a type of object rather than a level element in their own right (like preplaced lemmings) was more of a kludge than how they should actually work, and will probably be changed sooner or later.



Regarding the overall proposal, while I'm not a huge fan of the new order, I also don't see it as a huge issue, so put me down as "neutral" on this one. I believe the editor and the player should have the same order as each other; I'm not overly fussed beyond that.

[nin10doadict]

I believe the editor and the player should have the same order as each other; I'm not overly fussed beyond that.

Agreed. I believe Nepster mentioned in the other topic that this was already the intention, which is great.
Though I did make a level where there are blocks and pickup skills arranged in a way to mimic the skill panel, so mixing up the order would mean modifying this level to match. Small potatoes, but still.

[Nepster]

Plus, in the original skill panel a bomber comes before the blocker. I think we can agree that in levels featuring only the classic skills (which there are still a lot of), the skill order should be the same that it has always been.

Good point, though I would say even L1 got the ordering of "bomber" and "blocker" wrong

I'd put the Stacker after the Blocker and before Builder and Platformer, because it usually acts as a blocking-type skill as well. This is also the reason why I'd put the Stoner between Bomber and Blocker.

I am against this: The terrain removal skills are "horizontal", "diagonal" and "vertical", so we should keep this order also for terrain removal skills. Moreover stackers are far more than just a blocking-type skill, so I don't see too much of a similarity between blocker and stacker.

The fencer is a reverse miner, so I prefer keeping those two adjacent.

I have no huge opinion on this, so I am fine with keeping the fencer between the basher and the miner.

But other movement skills (jumper and shimmier) are proposed to be added in the future. Where would these be placed?

I would have placed them exactly where Strato Incendus put them: They are lemming movement skills like the walker and the cloner, so they belong together.

Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?

Pickup skills are a very good point to bring up! You would most likely have to do nothing, though. Together with namida's suggestion, I have three ideas regarding this, but haven't decided between them:
1) I will go through the styles and modify the pickup skills to match the final order. The main problem is that this is not backwards-compatibel and it's not clear to players that they have this problem at all, because NeoLemmix still would work fine, just display the wrong images.
2) I reorder them internally: This would mean no changes to the images, but everyone creating styles would have to keep in mind that the pickup-order is not the usual skill oder.
3) I split pickup skills up into lots of separate images, one for eack skill. This would be by far the most work for me, but has the additional advantage, that it would remove the tight coupling between skills and styles. This means: I could add another skill (like the shimmier) and the styles are not forced to update, because suddenly one frame is missing in the pickup skill image.

[IchoTolot]

3) I split pickup skills up into lots of separate images, one for eack skill. This would be by far the most work for me, but has the additional advantage, that it would remove the tight coupling between skills and styles. This means: I could add another skill (like the shimmier) and the styles are not forced to update, because suddenly one frame is missing in the pickup skill image.

I think as bad as this sounds in terms of workload, in the long term this is the best solution. (+ I think we are aiming for exactly that.)

Less tight couplings eases future changes and ensures more backwards compability. Also as you said future additions do not force tons of style adaptations.

[Strato Incendus]

I am against this: The terrain removal skills are "horizontal", "diagonal" and "vertical", so we should keep this order also for terrain removal skills. Moreover stackers are far more than just a blocking-type skill, so I don't see too much of a similarity between blocker and stacker.

Ah, good point!

So that would mean then:

Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Bomber, Stoner, Blocker, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger, Walker, Cloner

[Simon]

The fencer belongs immediately left of the basher. Reason: Then each next skill carves further downwards than the previous.

The bomber goes with the destructive skills. Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary. It's sad that walker is assignable to blocker. It's also sad that bomber is allowed on blockers and I can't dismiss this argument for keeping them together entirely. At least I find the connection between blocker and bomber too weak to warrant their side-by-side. There is a similar connection between walker and blocker. Is that strong enough?

The ideas behind the radical regrouping are good.

Group 1. Walker, cloner, jumper, shimmier, batter, Blocker.
Group 2. Runner, climber, floater, glider, swimmer, disarmer.
Group 3. Builder, platformer, cuber, stoner.
Group 4. Bomber, fencer, basher, miner, digger.

I am considering to adapt the order in Lix to match the NL order, but first, the NL order should rid all obvious bugs. Tradition is a weak argument for Lix's designs.

-- Simon

[Strato Incendus]

Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary.

And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners are the only skills which are affected with regards to their usability by the save requirement. A climber or glider can be affected in certain cases, when their permanently changed behaviour makes them go into death traps, but bombers and stoners kill 100% of the time. Any other skill can always be used, but bombers and stoners can't.

[Simon]

Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary.

And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners [...] are affected [..] by the save requirement.

Therefore what? You can still keep them next to each other even when you group stoner with other creators and bomber with other removers.

-- Simon

[Strato Incendus]

Ah, okay, you mean by putting the stoner at the end of the creative and the bomber at the beginning of the destructive skills, you'd still have lethality as a "bridge" between them.