[SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel

[Proxima]

The reason is mainly that I don't want to split the non-permanent skills into two parts.

I see your point there. Also, four of NL's permanent skills deal with movement of a single lemming, so they naturally belong with the jumper and shimmier (if implemented), which belong with the walker for the same reason as in Lix.

A bit of a pity that in NL, disarmer will split up the group of movement skills, but I think it's more important to keep the permanent skills together.

Also, this would bring cloner next to the permanent skills, which highlights its function of duplicating permanent skills. However, because the cloner can duplicate almost any skill, maybe it would be better to leave it at the end, separated from the walker.

So, my new proposal, with a few lingering doubts indicated:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, (Cloner?), Walker, (Jumper, Shimmier), (Bomber?), Blocker, (Bomber?), Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, (Fencer?), Basher, (Fencer?), Miner, Digger, (Cloner?)

* Cloner: see above paragraph.
* Bomber: see Nepster's original argument for moving after blocker. The only reason for keeping it before is to preserve L1's order.
* Fencer: Simon has a good point about the geometrical ordering of the four terrain removers. I still (marginally) prefer fencer after basher, because the basher is the simplest and the fencer and miner can both be seen as modifications of it; also the fencer is a miner in reverse. But I don't mind if Simon's ordering gets accepted here.

[namida]

I think the constructive skills should match the order of destructive skills (in terms of directions), if we're going for that?

Thus:

if Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger: constructive should be either Builder, Platformer, Stacker; or Platformer, Builder, Stacker (depending whether Builder takes the place of Fencer or Miner)
if Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger: constructive should be Platformer, Builder, Stacker

Regarding which of those two to actually use for destructive skills, I find myself partially in favor of Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger, but it's far from a huge deal. I do prefer the Platformer, Builder, Stacker order.

[Proxima]

Oh yeah, I copied the list from Strato's post without checking whether he'd sneakily changed anything from earlier posts. I agree with putting the stacker after the other two, and having the builder-platformer order match the basher-fencer order.

I would also put the stoner after the bomber and blocker, regardless of what we decide about ordering those two.

I've edited the above post with these corrections.

[namida]

Hm, time for me to put thought into this and come up with a proper response, instead of scattered "I like this" or "I don't like this", I think.



I'll start by saying I agree with the train of thought that destructive skills should have one of two orderings:
- Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger (horizontal, two diagonal, vertical) [BFMD]
- Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger (diagonal up, horizontal, diagonal down, vertical) [FBMD]
I can see similar patterns arising in the constructive skills obviously, but also the permanent skills. Thus, depending on which of these is picked, would also affect what I think should be picked for those two groups.

(I could also see a third acceptable order here: Basher, Miner, Fencer, Digger. But it seems few if any people like that one. In terms of what factors support it, it would be in the same position as BFMD, except with one less factor: BFMD preserves the existing order. While that in and of itself isn't always a good reason to keep something the way it is, I do think it's fair to consider it a tiebreaker between two otherwise very close options.)

Finally, I don't have a huge amount of preference on what order the groups are in. But where I do, I'll mention it.



Permanent skills
Climber should come first or last. Reason: It's the only one that doesn't allow surviving an otherwise-unsurvivable obstacle, giving it a unique factor compared to the others.
Floater and Glider should be together. Not particularly worried about the order of the two; though if we're going Miner > Digger for destructive and Builder > Stacker for constructive, maybe Glider before Floater makes sense (the diagonal skill comes first).
Arguably, one could extend that with directions and consider swimmer the horizontal survival-permanent. This is a bit of a stretch. However, unlike Climber or Disarmer, Swimmer doesn't have much else going to determine where it should be - the only other real argument is "does its existing position make sense, if so, why change it?"
However, alternatively (or as well), one could consider a climber as an "inverse floater", similar to a Fencer being an "inverse miner".
Disarmer is the only one that doesn't involve movement. It should come first or last.

Thus, I think:
BFMD: This groups the two diagonals together, so likewise, we should group the two verticals together in these skills. So, Swimmer, Glider, Floater, Climber. Since the first and last should be Climber and Disarmer, the overall result - Disarmer, Swimmer, Glider, Floater, Climber.
FBMD: This one goes through the directions (for a right-facing lemming) clockwise, starting from closest to straight upwards, so likewise, do the same here. So, Climber, Swimmer, Glider, Floater, Disarmer. (Disarmer going last for the same reasons it went first in BFMD.)

Additional advantage to putting Disarmer last: If the next group is constructive skills, or bomber/stoner, Disarmer is next to skills that modify the level in some way; it's also the only permanent skill that does that too.



Blocker, Bomber, Stoner

Blocker has a somewhat permanent effect. Bomber is destructive. Stoner is constructive. However, I'd definitely say these three are their own subgroup, rather than those skills being part of each of those groups respectively. This does give rise to very easy ordering - whatever order those three major groups are in (relative to each other), reflect that with this. If the skill panel's overall order has permanents > constructive > destructive; order this one Blocker, Stoner, Bomber.

With that being said, I can see one other way that would work well. Place this group between constructive and destructive skills (I'm assuming that the new order will retain "constructives come before destructives"), and order it Stoner, Blocker, Bomber. I don't like how this seperates Stoner and Bomber with another skill, but I do like how it puts the two of them next to the major group they're closer to.

A more radical idea: Use that "put inbetween and order appropriately" for Stoner and Bomber. Reclassify Blocker as a movement skill, alongside Walker and Cloner.



Constructive skills

Follow the same order (directionally) as the destructive skills. 'nuff said.



Movement Skills (Walker, Cloner, Jumper, Shimmier(, Blocker?))

I feel in the overall order, these should be placed first. They're basically like permanent skills, except non-permanent, so should be next to that group.

Direction doesn't really work for ordering. Walker can be 0d or 180d from current direction, depending on situation. Cloner is 0d and 180d. Jumper moves at a forwards-upwards angle at first, but the ultimate destination is horizontal. Shimmier moves upwards at first, but eventually follows a horizontal path. Blocker doesn't move at all.

Instead, one way we could order this is based on how permanent the effect is. There are two ways of looking at it - the effect on the level overall, or the effect on the individual lemming. I would say the correct ordering, for whichever one of these is chosen, would be "least permanent to most", given that the permanent skills are the next group on the panel.

If we are looking at effects on the level overall, the order should be: Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, (Blocker,) Cloner. Although the cloned lemming can die or exit, it won't ever be "uncreated" (whereas a blocker can be freed) - if a cloner has been used, you're either killing one more lemming, or saving one more lemming, than the base amount. This is weak and maybe arbitrary, I would not be very strongly opposed to switching the two - indeed, it could be argued that blocker actually creates an obstacle, Cloner just adds a lemming. Maybe I do prefer this way. If Blocker is not put in this group, it's irrelevant - Cloner is definitely more "permanent" in a global sense, than Shimmier. (Shimmier vs Jumper simply comes from "I suspect the average shimmier assignment will take longer to complete than the average jumper assignment".)

If we are looking at effects on the individual lemming, the order should be: Cloner, Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Blocker. Cloner doesn't affect the target lemming at all. Walker gives a single instantaneous effect and the lemming goes on as normal. Jumper and Shimmier take some time, with the latter (usually) taking longer. Blocker remains so until freed or killed. With that being said, I can't put my finger on a logical reason why, but this order feels weird to me. If we're taking this approach, despite it not technically following the guideline, this alternative feels more right to me - but again, this is purely based on how it feels, not something I can back up with logic: Walker, Cloner, Jumper, Shimmier, Blocker. Perhaps we should just avoid this and use the "global effect". But I don't know why, I just really seem to prefer this one.



After thinking about all the above and trying to come up with one single proposal, here's my final suggestion.

Movement skills
1. Walker
2. (Jumper)
3. (Shimmier)
4. Cloner
5. Blocker

Permanent skills
6. Climber
7. Swimmer
8. Glider
9. Floater
10. Disarmer

Constructive skills
11. Platformer
12. Builder
13. Stacker

Lemming-killing skills
14. Stoner
15. Bomber

Destructive skills
16. Fencer
17. Basher
18. Miner
19. Digger

This also has the advantage of being fairly close to the existing order. Cloner is moved to 2nd (or 4th, once Jumper and Shimmier are inserted). Glider and Floater are swapped, and Blocker is moved forward. Stoner and Bomber are swapped, and moved further back. Finally, Basher and Fencer are swapped. Aside from that, it retains the existing order.

In the case of Lix, the Batter is tricky to place in this classification. It's a skill that only directly affects one lemming, but can cause that lemming to have an effect on others, similar to the blocker. It's less permanent, so maybe just before the blocker?

[Nepster]

Regarding the order of the skill groups:
1) As you are mainly concerned that "Movement Skills" and "Permanent Skills" are next to each other, and I am mainly concerned to keep all non-permanent skills in one block, I would suggest placing the "Movement Skills" directly after the "Permanent Skills".
2) I can see why you placed the "Killing Skills" between the "Contructive Skills" and "Destructive Skills": To put the bomber next to the destructive skills and the stoner next to the constructive skills. However I think the killing effect, i.e. the effect to the lemming, is more important. So I would like to keep them before the constructive skills, i.e. now directly after the "Movement Skills" (that likely end with the blocker).

Regarding the oder inside the groups:
1) I don't think of the permanent skills as directional skills. For me their use to pass (deadly) obstacles is far more important. And in that regard the current swimmer placement does not make so much sense. As I said climbers, floaters and gliders are for passing terrain obstacles, while swimmers and disarmers interact with gadgets.
2) Regarding of your three choices of movement skills, the last one WCJSB feels the most natural to me, but I, too, cannot pinpoint the reason as to why.

So merging Proxima's and namida's suggestion with my points above included, I get to the following order:
Climber, (Glider?), Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, (Cloner?), Walker, Cloner, Jumper, Shimmier, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger,

Comparisons:
1) L1 order: We swapped Blocker and Bomber, but kept the remaining order. Not perfect, but acceptable in my opinion.
2) Current NeoLemmix order: Swimmer, Walker and Cloner moved; blocker moved in front of bomber and stoner and the fencer switched with the basher. Both Proxima's and namida's suggestions included similar amounts of changes.
3) namida's suggestion: Basically the changes I mentioned above. The biggest change would be the reordering of the groups, but I hope I have kept the points important to namida and only modified the ones with "no huge preference". And I swapped bomber and stoner again, so that we group at least the stoner with the constructive skills.
4) Proxima's suggestion: Very close. I removed some of the question marks, but added other ones.
5) Lix order: The main order of "permanent-constructive-destructive" is the same and it shares a lot similarities with the current order (except for the placement of walker and jumper). It's main differences from the suggestions in this thread are: Permanent skills split the non-permanent ones and the killing skills are split up.

[namida]

I should mention that I don't feel too strongly about any of this. My reply was more a "If I had to decide it now, this is what I'd do" than anything else. The only thing I am strongly in favor of is a consistent order between the player and editor.

[Proxima]

I'm happy with the order suggested in Nepster's above post. I strongly favour putting the glider after the floater, as it is a more complex modification of it. For the same reason, now that it's suggested, I agree with walker then cloner.

[Simon]

I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second. If people feel so strongly about this, then keep blocker-bomber-stoner as in Nepster's previous post.

Walker is a universal canceller and should come either first, or immediately after permanents, okay.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second.

I would guess that the timed bombers from L1 made them so annoying for terrain removal purposes, that we still don't group them with the destructive skills.

[Simon]

That would be the worst argument: Tradition. But I'm sure the others have substantial arguments. No worries.

-- Simon

[namida]

I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second. If people feel so strongly about this, then keep blocker-bomber-stoner as in Nepster's previous post.

Walker is a universal canceller and should come either first, or immediately after permanents, okay.

-- Simon

I'd think the question is - what's it used as more?

In older levels, following L1's example, indeed bombers were most often used for those purposes. However, in newer levels, that use doesn't appear to be as frequent, and they're used more often for terrain removal; for which they have several unique features - destroys in all directions, can destroy any direction of one-way walls without requiring the lemming to be moving in a specific direction, and can be used anywhere you can get a lemming to, unlike the others which require some ground to stand on (and NeoLemmix removing the timer, and having frame-control, helps a lot with this).

[namida]

Okay, so this died off without ever being implemented or specifically rejected.

Does anyone feel this is worth pursuing, or should we just leave the order as-is at this point?

No changes would be needed to existing content, thanks to the auto-generation of pickup skill icons in V12.7 and higher.

[Dullstar]

While tradition is a weak argument, changing from what you're used to can be a bit irritating, so unless we can find a new layout that's a major improvement over what we already have, I don't think it makes sense to force users to go through the process of relearning the skill order.

Allowing users to configure a custom skill order could be an option, but there's also a question of how many people would actually use such a feature.

[namida]

Okay so, that prompt only attracted one response, and that response wasn't in favor. I'm going to close this issue off then, and leave the skill order as-is.