[NeoLemmix] SEB Lems [Difficulty: Medium-Hard]

[chrisleec728]

Shouldn't "Tricks of the Trade Part V" be renamed now that the original "Part IV" has been removed?

[IchoTolot]

All my replays still work for the new NL release except 1:

- MegSEBytes 11 "The outbreak"

This level broke and is not possible anymore as some updrafts that previously send a glider up now don't do that anymore.

There a little fix (probably extending of the updrafts is needed).

[Flopsy]

Sorry for the massive delay

v3.02 of SEB Lems is out

19/09/20 [v3.02]
MegSEBytes 11 The Outbreak fixed since slight Glider physics change following the release of the Shimmier skill to NL.
All other levels are confirmed to be solvable.
Removed download link for v12.6.5 since it is heavily obsolete now.

Check the bottom of the first post for the download.

[ericderkovits]

Yes, This was the one level that was broken. Thanks for Updating, And yes all the replays I have turned green still hold true.

[Strato Incendus]

Boom! First half completed (plus the first level of Murder for good measure)! I played everything from scratch again and went for the talismans where it was possible without jumping through too many additional hoops. There are two replays for Paradise 12.

There may still be some backroutes among these; on at least 1 level, I had a bunch of skills remaining, and on a couple other ones where it seemed like all the skills were accounted for, I had 1 skil remaining and/or saved an additional lemming.

There were only a couple of levels where I needed to take some slight hints. "Slight" literally means "start watching Arty's / IchoTolot's solution and immediately click away after I've received one more piece of information." These were the following levels:

Spoiler

Hopeless Fantasies: I didn't realise I had to do a "2 for the price of 1" approach and bomb a lemming that otherwise would have drowned anyway.

Mean Green Machine: Cutting that one Basher in comparison to Arty's solution (which you didn't call a backroute in the comments! ) really made this level unnecessarily precise timing-wise. I had to re-assign the Digger on the left repeatedly to get him in the narrow time frame of "passing the exit while still closed" and "not reaching the abyss before it's been sealed up by Platformers". While looking at Arty's solution I thought "Why didn't this occur to me? Did I just overlook one Basher, or did I waste it somewhere?" No - it actually wasn't there anymore.
Also, the Old-Formats version featured anti-splat pads instead of updrafts. Thought about re-adding those?
For a while, the updrafts confused me even more, because they made me think the whole crowd should travel down with the Digger. With updrafts resetting fall height, this is technically possible (if it weren't for that force field, even if you block after the first drop). With anti-splat pads, it's clear this path isn't an option, because you would be digging away the terrain inside their trigger area, and the lemmings would splat again underneath.

Thought of Jigsaw and made this: I had the Stacker trick and everything figured out, but didn't see a way to make all Climbers survive until they reach the left side. Because I didn't see a way not to make the Glider a Climber as well. So I had to watch just the very beginning of IchoTolot's solution (since Arty's was a backroute) to get the crowd containment right. I never would have thought there would be enough time to let the Glider mine first!

Wild Forever: I traditionally suck at compression method. I was aware that you can use Bashers and Fencers to compress lemmings by having them "walk up on each other". But I hadn't thought of doing the same with Floaters yet. That a Miner has to go through, this was clear to me right away, since I like to use that a bunch as well. And the green grass parts thankfully facilitate proper placement of everything, including the Digger at the end. After that, I also went back to solve "Scarborough Sands", which I had skipped earlier, but I didn't actually have to look for any hints here. Just the context of having done "Wild Forever" first was enough. But that's why the replay file for Stormy 05 has a later "last-modified" date than the rest.

[kaywhyn]

Nice job, Strato! I remember you saying that you were going to get back into doing the rest of the pack. I have not yet played this pack, but I definitely have plans to, as soon as I can get my planned LPs done This is definitely on my to LP list, so yes I'll let you know when I have started it and both you and Flopsy can see how much I'm struggling with these levels Knowing myself, I most likely will struggle, especially seeing how this pack has the same difficulty tag as Strato's LOA pack and if my LP of Nessy's Lemmings Migration is anything to go by, where I surprisingly ended up struggling on even simple levels in the Painless rank and which likely isn't anywhere near as difficult as SEB Lems, although that remains to be seen with me, since again I haven't played this pack yet, so I don't know how very difficult it will get.

[Strato Incendus]

Let's say I don't expect the pack to get more difficult beyond the Rapture rank, because as far as I understand it, MegSEBytes is an earlier pack integrated into this one (so I actually expect it to be easier, like my Encore rank in Lemmings World Tour). Don't know about Unrequited.

As I understood Flopsy, it is possible to download the Deep Cuts rank from an earlier version or just keep it in the levels folder if you still have it from an earlier version instead of deleting it. However, of course that means there is no guarantee it will work with the latest NeoLemmix version. I think it was already removed prior to NeoLemmix version 12.9?

In one of the earlier posts, Flopsy said he might re-add the Deep Cuts rank later if he feels he can improve the levels on that rank sufficiently. So I'd rather just wait for that. I do hope it gets re-added in some fashion, though.

I'm currently stuck on Murder 02; I know I have attempted Murder 03 before, but I don't remember if I ever solved it.

Maybe it's a good idea to do some skipping around? A lot of the Stormy rank definitely felt easier than some select levels from Revolution, and many of the later levels of Stormy I had solved before some of the early ones from the same rank. Maybe the same is true for Murder and Rapture as well?

Also, I don't know how much more difficult the pack can get once you've developed some routine with recognising Flopsy's favourite tricks. Since he proudly wears it in his name tag, I don't think it's a secret that Flopsy is "the King of Blockers".

That means...

...using them for a bunch of other purposes than crowd control, and usually in a manner where they can be freed again.

In contrast, a lot of players only practice Blocker usage at the very beginning of their journey, until they encounter levels that require more advanced forms of crowd control (Digger pits, sealing off Basher tunnels with Builders, three-Builder wall, etc.).

The downside of that however is that many of us no longer use the Blocker very much at all. If you're one of the players where this is true (as it is for me), this will DEFINITELY come back to bite you when you first attempt SEB Lems.

[kaywhyn]

Let's say I don't expect the pack to get more difficult beyond the Rapture rank, because as far as I understand it, MegSEBytes is an earlier pack integrated into this one (so I actually expect it to be easier, like my Encore rank in Lemmings World Tour). Don't know about Unrequited.

IIRC, some of the MegSEBytes levels were pretty tough, but in SEB Lems you have already played some of them. The pack has several of the levels scattered in the main ranks, while in Old Formats it can be downloaded as a separate pack. It has 5 ranks with 6 levels each. I have already solved MegSEBytes for Old Formats, although there are two exclusive levels for that rank that can only be found in New Formats, neither of which I have played yet. In the standalone version, i.e, the Old Formats version before it got integrated into SEB Lems, I felt no real challenge with it until about the 3rd/4th rank. I remember the Lights, Camera, Action level being a huge spike in difficulty despite being the first level of either the 3rd or 4th rank (I don't remember which). However, for the most part I think you might be right about the pack not being that much harder after the Rapture rank, although again I can't say for sure since I have never played the pack. Unless the Unrequited rank is similar to your Groupie rank of LWT after the super easy Encore rank, but only because I have already played your Paralems and Pit Lems in quick succession, as well as Lemmicks from months before these two.

As I understood Flopsy, it is possible to download the Deep Cuts rank from an earlier version or just keep it in the levels folder if you still have it from an earlier version instead of deleting it. However, of course that means there is no guarantee it will work with the latest NeoLemmix version. I think it was already removed prior to NeoLemmix version 12.9?

I checked the Old Formats version of SEB Lems, and indeed Deep Cuts is there. I don't know about it being removed prior to v12.9. Since it's not available for New Formats, I wonder if it's better for me to LP the Old Formats version of SEB Lems then. It does mean more levels and hence most likely a much longer LP, though.

[Strato Incendus]

IIRC, some of the MegSEBytes levels were pretty tough, but in SEB Lems you have already played some of them. The pack has several of the levels scattered in the main ranks, while in Old Formats it can be downloaded as a separate pack. It has 5 ranks with 6 levels each. I have already solved MegSEBytes for Old Formats, although there are two exclusive levels for that rank that can only be found in New Formats, neither of which I have played yet. In the standalone version, i.e, the Old Formats version before it got integrated into SEB Lems, I felt no real challenge with it until about the 3rd/4th rank. I remember the Lights, Camera, Action level being a huge spike in difficulty despite being the first level of either the 3rd or 4th rank (I don't remember which).

Thanks for the assessment!

I checked the Old Formats version of SEB Lems, and indeed Deep Cuts is there. I don't know about it being removed prior to v12.9. Since it's not available for New Formats, I wonder if it's better for me to LP the Old Formats version of SEB Lems then. It does mean more levels and hence most likely a much longer LP, though.

Arty has already LPed the entire Old-Formats version.
More importantly though, in contrast to me with LWT, Flopsy is no longer maintaining the Old-Formats version. Therefore, most likely a bunch of backroutes will still be present in the latest Old-Formats version that are no longer possible in New Formats.

Of course, for some of these solutions, I would still prefer them to be there. A couple of times when I was stuck, I looked at Arty's LP and saw a perfectly fine solution, which wasn't even called a backroute in the comments - only to find out that what Arty had done had been made impossible afterwards nonetheless.

But there are also other things you'd really prefer to be fixed. For example, I remember the one-way arrows in the Old-Formats Starlight Zone tileset not actually working. Meaning, they would display properly, but they had no trigger area in the editor. Consequently, you could simply bash through them in the opposite direction. Even though it's clearly not intended.


For that reason, you should definitely go with the New Formats version. Even if it means fewer levels... Arty himself said the old version with more levels dragged on quite a bit towards the end. Which I guess is one of the reasons why the Deep Cuts rank was removed.

[kaywhyn]

Arty has already LPed the entire Old-Formats version.
More importantly though, in contrast to me with LWT, Flopsy is no longer maintaining the Old-Formats version. Therefore, most likely a bunch of backroutes will still be present in the latest Old-Formats version that are no longer possible in New Formats.

Of course, for some of these solutions, I would still prefer them to be there. A couple of times when I was stuck, I looked at Arty's LP and saw a perfectly fine solution, which wasn't even called a backroute in the comments - only to find out that what Arty had done had been made impossible afterwards nonetheless.

But there are also other things you'd really prefer to be fixed. For example, I remember the one-way arrows in the Old-Formats Starlight Zone tileset not actually working. Meaning, they would display properly, but they had no trigger area in the editor. Consequently, you could simply bash through them in the opposite direction. Even though it's clearly not intended.


For that reason, you should definitely go with the New Formats version. Even if it means fewer levels... Arty himself said the old version with more levels dragged on quite a bit towards the end. Which I guess is one of the reasons why the Deep Cuts rank was removed.

All very good points! If anything, I could always tack on the Deep Cuts as a separate LP, i.e, I LP the New Formats version of the pack, and once that's done I can always go back and LP the Deep Cuts rank as a separate LP for Old Formats. Or, as you indicate might be a possibility, I simply wait for the rank to be restored to the SEB Lems New Formats, which of course I would be in favor of seeing, but that all depends on if Flopsy wants to and ends up doing so later on down the line.

[Strato Incendus]

Question about Murder 09, "30-MegSEBytes Hard Drive": The receiver of the teleporter is entirely covered by a fire trigger area.

Is this supposed to be this way? I remember having attempted this level before, and I definitely do not remember it as it is right now.
If it's a backroute fix, it seems like a particularly weird one. As it stands right now, this teleporter just seems to be a complicated version of a trap.

More about my initial attempt to solve this level (back in Old Formats)

In fact I'm pretty sure you had to stone beneath the receiver, or platform along there - anyway, at least one worker lemming had to go through it.

[Flopsy]

Ok this topic suddenly came to life today. First of all, I'll talk about Strato's replays

Spoiler

Bittersweet 14, From A Designer's Perspective - I believe 44/50 is the current best for this level
Revolution 18, All Work No Play - first time I've seen this level done the opposite way round, everyone else has zig zagged the other way up this level!
Revolution 19, Mean Green Machine - I'm not guilty in this level losing a basher, this was actually Wafflem's responsibility to fix at the time the basher was removed and it was down to a back route by IchoTolot. I tend to leave Wafflem's levels very much alone unless something is seriously wrong with the level's playability so I'm not interested in re-adding the anti splat pads. Since Wafflem is currently inactive I have taken over for maintaining his levels in my level packs where I actually know the solution to the level myself, there are some levels in MegSEGAbytes where I have not solved the level myself!
Stormy 12, Gold Run - Nice job saving the Stoner on this level, I have patched out solutions which have done this in the past but I keep coming across more back routes so I'm just going to not even bother now.
Stormy 15, Wild Forever - That is the idea with the grass patches in the level, it helps you get the precision right, well spotted.
Stormy 19, Rickafinity - I think this might be the fastest solve we have so far on this level.
Murder 1, The Five Arches - I have never seen a Blocker do that before....

Let's say I don't expect the pack to get more difficult beyond the Rapture rank, because as far as I understand it, MegSEBytes is an earlier pack integrated into this one (so I actually expect it to be easier, like my Encore rank in Lemmings World Tour). Don't know about Unrequited.

After Rapture, you should consider each of the last 2 ranks as an individual pack, where level 1 in the rank would be like Paradise difficulty and level 20 would be as difficult as Rapture's difficulty. The levels in each rank are ranked in order of difficulty to best of mine and Wafflem's ability. So you could theoretically do these ranks on the side of the main 6 difficulty ranks if you are particularly stuck on anything.
But you are right, Rapture is as hard as the pack gets.

As I understood Flopsy, it is possible to download the Deep Cuts rank from an earlier version or just keep it in the levels folder if you still have it from an earlier version instead of deleting it. However, of course that means there is no guarantee it will work with the latest NeoLemmix version. I think it was already removed prior to NeoLemmix version 12.9?

In one of the earlier posts, Flopsy said he might re-add the Deep Cuts rank later if he feels he can improve the levels on that rank sufficiently. So I'd rather just wait for that. I do hope it gets re-added in some fashion, though.

Or, as you indicate might be a possibility, I simply wait for the rank to be restored to the SEB Lems New Formats, which of course I would be in favor of seeing, but that all depends on if Flopsy wants to and ends up doing so later on down the line.

The Deep Cuts rank will not be returning to SEB Lems sadly, most of the levels in that rank were not very good and I don't think you will miss many of them to be honest. Don't worry too much though, I will be releasing updated versions of some of these levels at a later date and making the other levels from this rank available in some form.
It really should not determine whether you play the Old Format version of SEB Lems over the New Formats version though because many of the levels were not that great, also Strato makes a valid point about back routes still existing in the Old Format throughout the pack.

I really do not see much merit in keeping the old format version of SEB Lems up to date hence why I abandoned the old format version. It is entirely at your discretion if you choose to play it.

[Flopsy]

Question about Murder 09, "30-MegSEBytes Hard Drive": The receiver of the teleporter is entirely covered by a fire trigger area.

Is this supposed to be this way? I remember having attempted this level before, and I definitely do not remember it as it is right now.
If it's a backroute fix, it seems like a particularly weird one. As it stands right now, this teleporter just seems to be a complicated version of a trap.

More about my initial attempt to solve this level (back in Old Formats)

In fact I'm pretty sure you had to stone beneath the receiver, or platform along there - anyway, at least one worker lemming had to go through it.

Spoiler

Some of us have discussed this and why it seems impossible but much like Mean Green Machine, Wafflem is responsible for maintaining this level. I can assure you that despite this, the level is very much solvable.

[kaywhyn]

The Deep Cuts rank will not be returning to SEB Lems sadly, most of the levels in that rank were not very good and I don't think you will miss many of them to be honest. Don't worry too much though, I will be releasing updated versions of some of these levels at a later date and making the other levels from this rank available in some form.
It really should not determine whether you play the Old Format version of SEB Lems over the New Formats version though because many of the levels were not that great, also Strato makes a valid point about back routes still existing in the Old Format throughout the pack.

I really do not see much merit in keeping the old format version of SEB Lems up to date hence why I abandoned the old format version. It is entirely at your discretion if you choose to play it.

Hey Flopsy, thanks for the quick response. No worries. I plan to take on all Old Formats and New Formats packs at some point. The only other potential problem I thought of is that if I play the Old Formats of SEB Lems first, that will cause my LP to not be as blind anymore for when I do take on the New Formats version. Then again, I could eliminate this problem by LPing the Old Formats version instead despite there already being an LP of it by Arty. Or just skip the Old Formats and play the New Formats version first, though I'm kind of starting with very Old Formats and working my way up to New Formats as my method of getting through packs. However, Strato makes a good point that the Deep Cuts would drag the LP out even more, which I guess doesn't really matter to me, since I love seeing and playing packs in their entirety with even the rejected levels added in a separate rank. I guess I'll think about which version I'll LP some more.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for your comments, Flopsy! Glad to hear that I was apparently able to set up some new records!

Regarding Stormy 19

Stormy 19, Rickafinity - I think this might be the fastest solve we have so far on this level.

You mean in terms of time remaining? It's not like there was an awful lot left of it in my solution either. I thought it was just to provide some leeway. Has everyone else literally solved this at the very last second?

Regarding Murder 1

Murder 1, The Five Arches - I have never seen a Blocker do that before....

Wait... are you talking about stopping a Basher with a Blocker? Are you serious? You were the one who showed that trick to me, on your LP of Lemmings Migration!

Also thanks for confirming the solvability of Murder 09. Seems like I significantly underestimated Wafflem's input on this pack. I'll give it another shot then!