[Fixed][BUG][EDITOR]Zoomed in, scroll bars don't go all the way to edge of level

[Proxima]

...making it awkward when you're trying to place pieces that go exactly up to the bottom or right edge.

[namida]

Just tried this myself. This issue only seems to affect the right-edge of the level, at least for me. (Tested with 320x160 level at 8x zoom, on a 3840x2160 display with 200% scaling by the OS, with the editor maximized.)

[nin10doadict]

I have also noticed this as well. I thought I was placing decorative pieces up against the right edge, only to find when I tested the level that they were not against the edge and there was an ugly gap floating there.

[Nepster]

I will look into it. Most likely this is some kind of rounding issue, that the scroll bar is missing one stopping step.

But the core issue is: We have scroll bars in the editor, which only creates lots of code to fix problems, that wouldn't have been there in the first place. There are three recommended ways to moving around, and none is "using the scroll bar". Instead they are:
1) Drag the screen (right-click and move the mouse)
2) Zoom out and, point the mouse where you want to go and then zoom in again (using the mouse wheel)
3) Using the arrow keys.

Given these three great ways, I really wonder whether I shouldn't remove the scroll bars altogether. If I remember correctly, they were added relatively early when we didn't have the first two of the now recommended ways to move (or they worked differently). So perhaps we don't need the scroll bars any more?

[IchoTolot]

Given these three great ways, I really wonder whether I shouldn't remove the scroll bars altogether.

Yeah, these ways are so great that I don't really use them.

- I simply am not a "use the right mouse button" scroller in any form of program.
- The mousewheel option I consider extremely unintuitive and clunky to use for scrolling.
- I don't want to have to use extra keys (here arrows) for scolling, my mouse should be able to to this.

But the most important point to keep visible scrollbars:

- ALL three of these options are hidden! You have to know these methods in advance or else you are simply baffled and ask yourself "How can I scroll ". They are not really intuitive for new players and they don't have a visible way of scrolling.

I consider the scrollbars the most intuitive scroll option and they are visible to everyone. Even computer rookies were taught to use them to scroll around.

I think the problem can be solved with this: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3585.0

I complained in the past of not having little grey borders at the edge of the level and I think they can fix this problem.

[Nepster]

Yeah, these ways are so great that I don't really use them.

Then start using them

- I simply am not a "use the right mouse button" scroller in any form of program.

So what? No reason not to become one.

- The mousewheel option I consider extremely unintuitive and clunky to use for scrolling.

I just wouldn't want to miss it for going larger distances. If you got used to it, it is really far smoother than using scrollbars, where you potentially have to drag two buttons around.

- I don't want to have to use extra keys (here arrows) for scolling, my mouse should be able to to this.

Totally fine, but then you still have the first two options.

- ALL three of these options are hidden! You have to know these methods in advance or else you are simply baffled and ask yourself "How can I scroll ". They are not really intuitive for new players and they don't have a visible way of scrolling.

First of all: Unless you zoom in a lot (or have a very large level), you don't have to scroll anyway. And then you already know how to zoom, so you are aware of at least the second option. And I don't consider right-click-movement hidden: The first thing one tries if something doesn't work is right-clicking on it, to see if any context menu pops up. And then they will see the change in the cursor...
Furthermore I haven't heard anyone complaining about the Lix editor, which does not have scroll bars.

I consider the scrollbars the most intuitive scroll option and they are visible to everyone. Even computer rookies were taught to use them to scroll around.

Yes, they are everywhere, but that doesn't mean they should be, nor that they are good for everything.

Really this boils down to one basic question: Are you used to previous editors like Lemmix (which had scroll bars) or editors like Lix (which has dragging)? So anyone complaining about needing scroll bars: Please create a few levels in Lix and try its level editor, and compare them. If you still feel the need for scroll bars, then please complain again.

PS: If we ever implement horizontally or vertically wrapping levels, then the scroll bars will have to go anyway. So better to get used to other forms of moving around now.

[IchoTolot]

The first thing one tries if something doesn't work is right-clicking on it, to see if any context menu pops up. And then they will see the change in the cursor.

We already had huge discussions about making key elements visible to the player and undertook a ton of changes to improve this--- taking away the scroll bars is like making a U-turn in the other direction here and take several steps back!

Please create a few levels in Lix and try its level editor, and compare them. If you still feel the need for scroll bars, then please complain again.

I did. I still feel the need.

I don't mind the other options you mentioned and I don't want to argue for taking them away, but I still want to have the scroll bars, as they are the most intuitive option. Taking them away makes the editor just less user-friendly in my eyes!

I still think adding the grey boarders is the solution.

[Nepster]

I still think adding the grey boarders is the solution.

I already agreed to add gray borders at some point, when I get to do it. Whether to keep the scroll bars is another question altogether.

[Simon]

Lix offers edge scrolling and RMB-scrolling. In (most other people)'s Lix videos, they first discover edge scrolling and don't look for anything else.

RMB-scolling is faster than edge scrolling, even objectively: The mouse cursor need not travel at all to begin scrolling. and the scrolled distance can be controlled more precisely by (the hand movement that is envisioned as one smooth motion) instead of by timing (moving the mouse back into the center, a second action after beginning the scrolling).

I considered removing edge-scrolling to force poeple to discover RMB-scrolling. But good UI does what the user wants to do, not tell the user to do it another way.

I haven't thought deeply about how this relates to the scroll bars. The hunch is that bars are slow. The fastest method to scroll with bars is a mimic of RMB-scrolling.

Bonus anecdote: In Firefox, I set my mouse wheel scroll speed to 5x to 10x the normal speed; that normal speed is agonizingly slow. I have fond memories of watching people sit at public university computers: They browsed facebook and rattled the mouse wheel downwards, re-gripping the mouse wheel several times to overcome the agonizingly slow scroll speed.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Another point in favour of scroll bars: You have a visible marker showing you where you are in the level.

Arrow-key scrolling is unacceptably slow -- I mean, it's fine to have as an option for when you want a slight nudge, but as a replacement for the scroll bar, it's not a serious candidate at all.

RMB scrolling is limited to moving by the amount of the current screen size, making it also very clunky for getting from one end of the level to the other.

Zoom-click scrolling doesn't even zoom in on the correct point. I notice a difference depending on whether I click near the left or right edge of the screen, but zooming in a few times will always zoom closer to the centre than the point I clicked on, and after a couple of levels of zoom, the point I told the editor I wanted to focus on goes offscreen. [Layman's guess: Maybe only the first zoom-in remembers the point I clicked on?]

[Simon]

RMB scrolling is limited to moving by the amount of the current screen size

The solution to this is to increase the speed factor to much more than 1. I agree that re-gripping takes all the fun out of RMB-scrolling.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Zoom-click scrolling doesn't even zoom in on the correct point. I notice a difference depending on whether I click near the left or right edge of the screen, but zooming in a few times will always zoom closer to the centre than the point I clicked on, and after a couple of levels of zoom, the point I told the editor I wanted to focus on goes offscreen. [Layman's guess: Maybe only the first zoom-in remembers the point I clicked on?]

Which editor version do you have? This sounds like the behavior from three or four versions ago.

[Proxima]

I have 1.8, installed on 29/4. According to the website, this is still the latest version.

[namida]

Grey borders would indeed fix this matter, at least as far as the user is concerned. If one pixel of grey border is hidden... so what? You'll likely only even realise this if you were to actually take a screenshot and compare how much grey area is on each side, which I doubt anyone will.

Alternatively, a few hardcoded special cases will take care of this - if scrollbar is at minimum value, set display position to top or left; if is at maximum value, set to bottom or right; in either case, overriding the usual formula. Though yes, I can definitely sympathize with scroll bars being a major pain in the ass to get working correctly. However, they are possibly the most intuitive means of scrolling in a standard Windows style GUI application - I wouldn't go as far as saying "I'm against removing them no matter what", but I think that if they were to be removed, the editor would need to explicitly tell the user how to scroll - not in a readme, but an actual popup (preferably one that only occurs once, of course), either on first run, or the first time the user has a level open that (at current zoom level) doesn't fit on a single screen.

RMB for scroll does feel weird. I'd argue that MMB is a better choice, but then some users don't have an MMB...

[Dullstar]

MMB for scroll should be implemented if it isn't already, but it should never be the only way to scroll for the reason namida stated.

RMB is fine if it's not being used for any context menus. Since the NL editor isn't a fullscreen app, edge scrolling probably wouldn't work very well.

Zoom scroll by itself is bad, but zoom scroll is something I expect to see in anything with a zoom feature. If the zoom function works how I expect, the zoom scrolling functionality is an emergent property, so I expect that it should be possible to scroll with zooming if the UI is well designed. But it should NEVER be relied on. It's so clunky, especially over short distances (why do I have to zoom out then back in just to move the viewing area like 3 pixels?)

Pretty much every Windows style GUI application has a scroll bar for scrolling. Lix can get away with not having one because the Lix editor UI happens to look a lot like the Lix game UI, so naturally you might consider trying to scroll the same way you would scroll in game. Actually, I've used one image editor that feels very awkward to scroll in, and I could never really put my finger on why until now - it doesn't have a scroll bar, and can only scroll by zooming (ugh) or with the MMB. Basically, the scroll bar is something useful to have that I don't realize just how much use I get out of it until it's gone.

Don't remove scroll bars.