A bias for classic skills?

[Strato Incendus]

My general observation across most custom packs is that there seem to be more packs restraining themselves to the classic 8 skills than such which feature NeoLemmix skills. Also, the most acclaimed packs seem to be classic skills-only, as far as I can tell. Whether that's because they only include classic skills, or because some of them are so old that they were initially created before NeoLemmix skills even existed, or whether these acclaimed packs just happen to have classic skills, that's of course something which cannot be inferred from that observation . I see merely a correlation here, not a causal link.

But I wanted to ask in general, do you prefer to play packs with NeoLemmix skills, or such that voluntarily limit themselves to classic skills?

[Ron_Stard]

I definitely prefer the canonical skills, from either Lemmings or Lemmings 2

[Strato Incendus]

Well, Lemmings 2 would include swimmers, fencers, stackers, platformers, and by extent also gliders, so still the majority of NeoLemmix skills .

[Ryemanni]

I feel like the classic skills already fill every basic need. So if you want to use the new skills from NL, you have to think up a puzzle revolving around them.

I have nothing against the new skills and I enjoy them a lot, but I usually find myself making levels with just the classic skills.

[Nepster]

Some random thoughts and opinions:
1) I like the new skills, except for the disarmer, stoner and glider.
2) The classic skills seem more versatile than a lot the new ones. At least none of the new skills comes even close to the miner and builder in terms of different use-cases.
3) At least for me it is far easier to create a good level with the classic skills, than with the new skills. This has less to do about what the skills actually are, but more about how long they have been around. I have been using the classic skills for around 20 years by now, and so I am instinctively aware about how they move around and can create level (ideas) in my head by mentally visualizing the whole solution. For the new skills, I always have to actively think about how they would move and interact, which makes level creation a lot harder. The upshot of all of this is: I expect that new great packs using the new skills will come up eventually, when everyone is much more familiar (on an instinctive level) with them.

[Nessy]

Interesting topic! Let's see...

I am personally very, very conservative when it comes to my Lemmings content. I don't even have my entrances face left even if the lemmings are just going to hit a wall and turn to the left none the less! That is why my first pack of levels had only official skills and even official graphic sets (with the exception of me using the LPV Mineshaft and Machine tilesets). However, I would not say that I am "bias" against or for them. I think I am just more familiar with them so I knew how to use them in the levels I made a little bit better. The new skills still require me to really think about how to use them in creative ways so that a level really benefits from it. Plus there are many packs like SEBLems and later Lemmings Plus packs that use the new skills in creative ways, so other members are really pushing what is possible with it

I am, however, trying to use new skills, objects, and graphic sets in my next pack of levels Most levels still have the classic skills but some have me trying to dip my toe into some new ideas with new stuff.

[IchoTolot]

I am using the new skills quite a lot and my new levels usually have them included in some way -- they are for the most part not released yet . In Lemmings United I am trying to get everything out of the new tools (and objects) and I think it will show what they are capable of when the pack is finished.

From the new skills I like the most: Platformer, Walker, Glider, Fencer and Stoner. Although I found a good chunck of stacker usage as well.

[Proxima]

When I make levels for Lix, then to me, all skills are equally part of the game, so they are all available to choose from when I need a particular tool for a specific-solution level. I certainly don't use them all equally; runners and fling-bombers are my least used skills, but I have used both on occasion. I really like the uniqueness of the batter; the possibilities opened up by the jumper-climber; and the way the walker has many possible uses and the player never knows how it will be used on a particular level.

For the type of level I'm best known for -- "resource management levels" with many skill types, only a few of each, and no single intended solution but finding any solution is hard -- again I usually include all the skills and try to find a solution while keeping my skill usage nice and balanced. The new skills really help with this, because builders are no longer the only constructive skill; and the walker and jumper can isolate a worker without draining the constructive and destructive skills.

By contrast, I'm not a big fan of the new NeoLemmix skills, and in the pack I'm working on, I don't use them at all. They just don't seem to me to have the same cohesion as a set that either the original skills or the Lix skills have. The disarmer and swimmer are too simple, being just what Simon has termed "key skills" -- each gets past a particular type of lock and that's all it does. Gliders have the potential to be really fiddly and annoying, especially combined with updrafts. Stoners are overpowered because they can be assigned in mid-air; and the irregular terrain created can also lead to really fiddly and precise solutions. Platformers are a good skill, of course, but as I'm used to the Lix platformer, I find the NL one really awkward to work with. Walkers are the same as in Lix, but... when there's only one or two new skills I might consider using, I prefer the purity of sticking with the original eight

[nin10doadict]

I noticed this correlation myself which is why I tried to make active use of the new skills in my packs.

[Crane]

For me, I use classic skills mostly because my design trademark, if you can call it that, is to make levels that resemble those found in the original game, which includes a time limit, not having left-facing hatches, using the original tilesets and not having puzzles that require constant pausing if it can be helped.

I'm starting to mix it up a little bit, but I still prefer the original formula.

[Colorful Arty]

My using skills depends solely on if I have a cool idea for a certain skill or how fun I find the skill. The original 8 all are really fun and have lots of puzzle potential (except the floater, which kind of sucks), while out of the new skills, I really only use the walker, cloner, fencer, and platformer extensively. I generally dislike the disarmer and the stacker, but still use them if I have a good idea for them.

[Strato Incendus]

The stacker actually has great potential for puzzling, I've found; depending on how many lemmings slip by or on what strategies you can use to avoid anyone slipping by, there is a lot of room for interactions with other skills. Also, the fact that it is a blocker that climbers can still go over (in contrast to the stoner) is often relevant.

The disarmer indeed is often very limited, because it's oven not even relevant whether it can disarm several traps or just one. But you can create stalling levels where one disarmer has to do a bunch of traps while you have to control the crowd; or you make the disarmer a pickup skill, and getting to that skill is the main challenge.

Generally, all athletic skills (including the disarmer) have the restriction of enforcing pioneer-style solutions, where one lemming goes ahead along a path the others can't take, and then creates such a route for them.

Gliders have lots of design space though, because they can cross gaps and water before any solid terrain is there (which makes them more versatile than swimmers). With the interaction with updrafts on top of that, I think they're by far the most versatile athletic skill we have in NeoLemmix.

Since gliders aren't on your list yet, perhaps you might want to try out a few of these approaches ?

[Flopsy]

A bit late to this topic but here it goes.

As Nessy mentioned, SEB Lems makes good use of the new skills, if they are there I will try and use them. I'm not saddened by certain people's choice not to use them however, I feel like it's one of those things that will make SEB Lems stand out personally

I feel the cloner and disarmer are the harder skills to make use of. You have to be careful when making use of walkers and gliders because they are powerful skills, a glider can effectively land anywhere on the level depending on its layout, walkers can effectively create unintended back routes!

I feel like the platformer and stackers are brilliant skills and I think I use those the most where possible.

I'm not particularly a fan of the stoner because I feel that they are limited by what you can do with them. They are powerful for making long drops survivable though, you can effectively fall most of the level just by using one of these.

I feel the swimmer is another useful skill but I feel like I cannot make good enough use of it in my solutions because I feel like there should be more than spaces for skill selection (but that is a whole another debate!).

Bottom line is, some people prefer traditional vanilla Lemmings puzzling with the usual skills which existed in 1991, some people like to do these traditional levels and also make levels which make use of these new skills like myself