[NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE

[Strato Incendus]

Wow, thanks a lot for playing, kaywhyn - I think this is the most extensive and detailed feedback I have received on any of my packs so far! And actually I do believe nobody has gotten deeper into Lemmicks than you at this point.

It will certainly take me some time to go through all your replays. Since you said you don't have any for the first two ranks, did you play those with automatic replay saving disabled?

I'm happy to hear that you didn't find this pack nearly as difficult as other people. The Basic rank was indeed intended to just provide some generally good puzzles while familiarizing the player with solid level sides. It was never intended as a beginner rank, and Lemmicks definitely is not a beginner pack. That said, even some advanced players can get caught off-guard by the changed physics, especially solid level sides, and I guess that's how Basic earned its reputation of being so difficult.

I did make sure to stress any physics changes in pre-level text - but, as IchoTolot once warned me, a lot of people don't read those . As evident by the fact that e.g. you didn't know the gimmick on the Moist rank until you reached "Need a lift?"

I am aware of the annoyance potential of the Hasty rank, and there is one particularly obnoxious level on the Bedlam rank called "So much to do, so little time" for which I'm considering to remove the Superlemming and Frenzy gimmick, so that it's only instant pickups. Having these three gimmicks combined on one level was how the Hasty rank was originally designed to be. But I've realized that they serve opposite purposes: Instant pickups make for great puzzles, especially when having to circumvent badly-placed pickups that almost act like traps; Frenzy and Superlemming, in contrast, only add execution difficulty.

Regarding "Circumvent their stupidity"

I wasn't aware either that Builders can pass through Stackers; thanks for discovering this! Thus, without having looked at your replay yet, I can already tell you that this is most definitely not the intended solution. Maybe it's a backroute; maybe you've made it harder for yourself than it had to be. If all other backroutes you tried didn't work, it might be another case of one of my levels being backroute-proof by accident...

Detailed feedback on your replays coming later!

[WillLem]

The Basic rank was indeed intended to just provide some generally good puzzles while familiarizing the player with solid level sides. It was never intended as a beginner rank, and Lemmicks definitely is not a beginner pack. That said, even some advanced players can get caught off-guard by the changed physics, especially solid level sides, and I guess that's how Basic earned its reputation of being so difficult.

To be quite honest, the solid sides had nothing to do with why I found it difficult - I just couldn't solve a lot of the puzzles generally! Mind you, that's not really saying much because my solving skills are probably average at best.

I think what I was hoping for when I first played Lemmicks were some more Fun-style levels where the player can simply experience the gimmicks in a relatively puzzle-free environment to begin with, before building up to the more difficult levels later on once the gimmicks become second nature. As mentioned previously, this would be my strongest suggestion for Lemmicks 2.

[mantha16]

can i just say it was the old version of the NL player that put me off not the level design

[Strato Incendus]

I think what I was hoping for when I first played Lemmicks were some more Fun-style levels where the player can simply experience the gimmicks in a relatively puzzle-free environment to begin with, before building up to the more difficult levels later on once the gimmicks become second nature. As mentioned previously, this would be my strongest suggestion for Lemmicks 2.

Well, fun is in the eye of the beholder, as we've established, and while I know that what you find fun might differ from what the NeoLemmix puzzle-die-hards like , you may have misunderstood the original intention of this pack there. As far as I remember I've always made Lemmicks's goal clear right from the start: To showcase how the gimmicks - which, as the community told me, "were culled for good reason" - could actually be used for clever and fair puzzle design.

I don't know whether gimmicks necessarily had a bad reputation before that - a lot of people still seemed to be happy I brought them back. But I think it's fair to say that most packs I could still get my hands on which had made use of gimmicks did so in a surprising manner. Meaning not only was the gimmick not announced by the rank name (as it is done in Lemmicks, except for the Bedlam rank), but also you had to explore everything for yourself and figure out by-doing how the changed rules worked.

In other words, what WillLem proposes kind of already existed to some extent , and was seen by some as unfair and nasty surprises. I wanted to show that gimmicks can be used for more than that, so by definition that necessitated a puzzle focus.

I'm open to working on another gimmick pack that has easier puzzles - though it should probably not be named "Lemmicks 2" then, because who would play the second version of a pack before the first one? And that's kind of what players would be advised to do with an easier gimmick pack.

However, we first need to agree on a selection of gimmicks that seem worthwhile. And the fact that WillLem brought up not only one, but two ranks of Frenzy levels (the second one with SuperLemming on top of that) - when this is clearly the least popular rank in Lemmicks, to put it politely - makes me wonder whether our design philosophies are "compatible" in that regard.

I guess my level design philosophy and WillLem's are more compatible than between WillLem and a lot of other level designers, because we both enjoy occasional "troll" or "unfair" elements if they have redeeming qualities like aesthetics.

However, where I'm probably on my own is that I'm not a huge fan of free, open-ended "explorer" levels (like X-of-everything levels, or, in this case "just toy around with this gimmick" levels).

And finally, there's this issue:

can i just say it was the old version of the NL player that put me off not the level design

This seems to be the main obstacle stopping people from giving Lemmicks a try. Not the difficulty, not the mere idea of "it's outdated and therefore you should not use it", but simply the fact that outdated versions do indeed have their legitimate downsides.

I was planning to open a thread for a potential Lemmicks 2 anyway, due to recent activity in this thread, and I think now I have a reason to . So that we can also separate all discussions about level design in a possible second gimmick pack from feedback regarding the levels in Lemmicks.

We should definitely test the waters, though, a) whether there is a demand / interest for further (easier) gimmick levels in the first place, and b) if so, which gimmicks people like and don't like. I don't think we can really afford just picking gimmicks by our own taste alone, because the number of potential players is already severely reduced by the fact that it's NeoLemmix 1.43, and every further turn-off will drive more players away.

[kaywhyn]

can i just say it was the old version of the NL player that put me off not the level design

YMMV, as I did mention that I'm finding v.1.43 not as bad as I thought, though it's kind of helped by the fact that I had previously played through Giga's packs a month or two prior to taking on Lemmicks. But yes, you previously did mention that it's the lack of features in v1.43 that's preventing you from getting further with Lemmicks, and it's pretty much been established that that this is the main reason people haven't played through the pack and not the difficulty. I completely agree with the latter, as up until Circumvent Their Stupidity in the Hasty rank (the 9th rank out of 13) the levels aren't over the top hard. Before this level, the longest I've been stuck on an individual level in the pack was about 20 or so minutes, while the Hasty rank level I just mentioned I was stuck on for almost 2 days! In general, I'm a huge lemmings fan, and despite some of the inconveniences of v1.43 my high praise for the pack, along with my love of the game, have overshadowed my annoyances with the fiddly v1.43 player and helped keep me engaged in the pack tremendously, as IMHO nearly all of the levels I've played so far in the pack are excellent levels. Needless to say, the benefits of the pack through the high quality levels and puzzles far outweigh the negatives of the v1.43 player here in my eyes.

Since you said you don't have any for the first two ranks, did you play those with automatic replay saving disabled?

You are correct. It was kind of both intentional and unintentional on my part. I was aware that the feature isn't enabled by default, but at the same time I didn't really think the Basic and Moist rank would be the problematic ranks. In addition, I enabled the feature starting at Circular 2, so Circular 1 is missing, but it's a very easy level anyway. However, since it sounds like you do want replays for Basic and Moist, I'll be more than happy to replay those ranks once I get through the entire pack and send you them.

I did make sure to stress any physics changes in pre-level text - but, as IchoTolot once warned me, a lot of people don't read those . As evident by the fact that e.g. you didn't know the gimmick on the Moist rank until you reached "Need a lift?"

Actually, I was aware of the rising water gimmick being active in the Moist rank

Spoiler

I just didn't think to use it in the solution at first on Moist 3 and kept repeatedly thinking I need to build up to the exit before the water rises too much to make the level unsolvable. However, this would prove to be futile, as you'll always run out builders this way, which was why I was stumped for a good while, with the solution coming to me easily once I realized that I have to use the rising water. That's why I was perplexed why there were 15 swimmers at first because I didn't make that connection with the rising water. As a matter of fact, Moist 3 would be the very first level in the rank where the rising water shouldn't be seen as a hazard, but rather a helpful feature of the level that needs to be used in the solution and so it's ok to take your time and you don't have to worry about the water taking over before the level becomes unsolvable. This is in contrast to the previous two levels, where you have to beat the rising water (the water is a time limit hazard in object form as you have mentioned) because you cannot use it due to lack of swimmers. For this reason, the change from the water generally being a hazard to it being very useful and helpful and that it must be used in the solution for will probably very likely throw people off at first like it did with me.

Whereas for my progress, I'm currently up at Bedlam 15. 35 levels to go! So, I'm probably not that far from that Bedlam level Strato mentioned with the combined Frenzy + Superlemming + instant pickups gimmicks. I'll let you know how that goes when I get there, although I've already encountered one such level in the rank called ADHD that also has the lazy lemmings gimmick active. That one was an easy level, as it only took me about a minute to see the solution, just annoying that I had to keep pounding the reset hotkey just before the trapdoor opens.

More detailed feedback to come soon when I send my remaining replays!

[Strato Incendus]

Actually, I was aware of the rising water gimmick being active in the Moist rank

Ah, sorry, then I misunderstood this sentence of yours :

when it dawned on me that the gimmick active for this rank is rising water

Spoiler

The change in the water's functionality / purpose was probably more obvious back when "Here comes the flood" was Moist level 02. But after having seen Flopsy struggle with it, I decided that "Here comes the flood" was way too difficult for the second level in the rank. Thus, it moved to a later position, making "Need a lift?" and user-friendly water a greater novelty. I hadn't even thought of that!

In general, I'm a huge lemmings fan, and despite some of the inconveniences of v1.43 my high praise for the pack, along with my love of the game, have overshadowed my annoyances with the fiddly v1.43 player and helped keep me engaged in the pack tremendously, as IMHO nearly all of the levels I've played so far in the pack are excellent levels. Needless to say, the benefits of the pack through the high quality levels and puzzles far outweigh the negatives of the v1.43 player here in my eyes.

Thanks a lot for your kind words!

I really had a hard time judging the quality of the levels so far, given that they defy any standard rules of what counts as "challenging", "fair", "puzzling" etc. I couldn't really compare them to anything other level designers had made. Judging my progress just in comparison to my former self (intra-individual comparison), though, I did have the feeling they were more challenging and overall "better" than what I had come up with for Pit Lems.

No idea whether Lemmicks or Lemmings World Tour has overall better puzzles, though. I guess Lemmings World Tour might be more enjoyable for the average player, especially with all the modern conveniences (in both Old- and New Formats), while Lemmicks might be more frustrating, and if it's just for the Hasty rank.

So I'm glad you've powered through any inconveniences (minor or major) the pack or old engine might have thrown at you! Knowing you're already that far into the pack, I think I'll leave the level "So much to do, so little time" as it is for right now, to give it at least one shot. If you're already used to spamming the rewind key, the post-level text even says "your minus key will never be the same again" .

Also, I'm kind of curious what WillLem thinks of that level, given that he wanted to put Frenzy and Superlemming into one and the same rank in the second gimmick pack. (Granted, not with instant pickups, which "So much to do, so little time" has on top of that.)

If you're looking for it, it's Bedlam 35, right after "These stairs of mine", which is my absolute favourite level in the pack. So you could kind of say the worst level comes after the coolest level.

[WillLem]

you may have misunderstood the original intention of this pack there.... To showcase how the gimmicks... could actually be used for clever and fair puzzle design.

In this regard, I'd say the pack was a success, then!

I guess I'm not taking into account the fact that most players would have been familiar with most of the gimmicks by the time this pack was released, so introductory levels may not have been necessary.

However, since they've currently not been around for a while, maybe a few easier/more open-ended levels for the proposed sequel would not go amiss, and there's no reason at all for such levels to detract from your original goal for Lemmicks (i.e. fair and interesting puzzles), if done tastefully.

In other words, what WillLem proposes kind of already existed to some extent , and was seen by some as unfair and nasty surprises.

I'm proposing that the gimmicks be introduced gradually, fairly and in the context of easier, open-ended levels. I'm not sure how that would constitute a "nasty surprise." The gimmicks would be made clear at the start of the rank, as they were in original Lemmicks, and then the player would have the opportunity to experience them in a safe environment.

I am not, and never have been, in favour of "trolling" players unnecessarily. I simply believe that the occasional unexpected element, if used sparingly, carefully and tastefully, can enhance certain levels. Just wanted to make that clear!

[Strato Incendus]

Yes indeed, I didn't want to misrepresent you here; I'm aware that you want to stick to the "fair gimmick-per-rank" structure.

The fact that the gimmicks were in more recent memory when Lemmicks was released is a fair point! Indeed a lot of new members have joined in the meantime that have only ever known New Formats.

I am not, and never have been, in favour of "trolling" players unnecessarily. I simply believe that the occasional unexpected element, if used sparingly, carefully and tastefully, can enhance certain levels. Just wanted to make that clear!

I know you always have good intentions about this . This is just a labelling issue. The "unexpected" part is what proponents of strictly-fair and predictable puzzle gameplay would often already consider as trolling, even though the level designer may not at all have intended for it to be a troll level.

Interestingly, though, also one of my strictly-fair puzzle levels, which was deliberately designed in-style of Nepster ("You had it coming" from Pit Lems), was called a troll level by nin10doadict during his Let's Play, because the surrounding levels happened to be much easier. So the sudden (but unintended) spike in difficulty was "unexpected" , one could say...

[kaywhyn]

And, pack is done! Wow, just wow. It was an amazing pack from start to finish. I'll send the replays and give even more detailed feedback after I go back and replay the Basic and Moist ranks for the rest of the replays, as well as Circular 1 if you would like that one too. Aside from Hasty 6, I say the difficult mind-bending puzzles were the Bedlam levels, since most of the levels combined at least 2 or more gimmicks from the previous ranks together, as well as introduced ones that weren't in any of the earlier ones. I guess you can say that Bedlam IS the pack itself, particularly since a lot of the difficult levels are here IMO. Where all the previous ranks were warm-up ranks for Bedlam that generally introduced one gimmick at a time, Bedlam really puts the gimmicks to the test by combining them together, creating really difficult levels. I honestly would place a lot of the Bedlam levels at ONML difficulty, because they definitely felt like they were really up there with ONML in terms of difficulty. Some Bedlam levels I say are worthy of the Havoc difficulty! The other ranks I would say were Mayhem at best or lower. Especially since Bedlam has the most levels at 40, it slowed my progress tremendously, but I made it through the rank and had a huge feeling of satisfaction of beating the entire rank and now the entire pack. I guess I'm honored to be the very first person to officially complete the pack, and 3-4 years since its release too!

Spoiler

The change in the water's functionality / purpose was probably more obvious back when "Here comes the flood" was Moist level 02. But after having seen Flopsy struggle with it, I decided that "Here comes the flood" was way too difficult for the second level in the rank. Thus, it moved to a later position, making "Need a lift?" and user-friendly water a greater novelty. I hadn't even thought of that!

As I mentioned in the feedback for this level, which is now Moist 6, I didn't think it was hard at all.

Spoiler

Especially when you look at the skillset provided, there's only one way to release one blocker, and that is with the walker. However, I like how you must choose the correct blocker to release with it, as releasing any other will make the level unsolvable. You do have a miner, but it only allows to release one blocker but it will also result in the miner lemming drowning. Not to mention that wasting a miner for this will also render the level unsolvable. Also, I haven't seen Flopsy's playthrough of the level, but I'm wondering if he was one of those people who tried to climb the ever so tempting but incorrect right side of the level, which I never did because I knew from the start that it cannot be used for the solution. Needless to say, I personally say that its original position of Moist 2 was appropriate. It's an easy level when you know how.

EDIT: Never mind, Moist 6's position is appropriate for the second half of the rank, as there were some tricks that I have forgotten that must be done on this level when I revisited the Moist rank earlier. I totally forgot about cloning a miner on the stairs so that a path to the exit is made and the miner going left will mine into steel and turn around. Even then, I still found the level easy since it didn't take me that long to come up with that. I did mention it once, and I'll say it again: Difficulty of levels will always be subjective. There have been some levels that others found easy that I surprisingly struggled on, or vice versa, where there have been levels that I found easy but others found hard. 

I really had a hard time judging the quality of the levels so far, given that they defy any standard rules of what counts as "challenging", "fair", "puzzling" etc. I couldn't really compare them to anything other level designers had made. Judging my progress just in comparison to my former self (intra-individual comparison), though, I did have the feeling they were more challenging and overall "better" than what I had come up with for Pit Lems.

Now that I've played through the entire pack, IMO there's no unfair levels in there at all. Even the ones with the combined Frenzy and Superlemming gimmicks in the Hasty and Bedlam ranks and possibly some other gimmicks active weren't unfair. At worst, they were just simply annoying. I also agree with your assessment that the two former gimmicks made the execution difficult, but the puzzles themselves were easy. There's definitely challenging puzzles in Lemmicks, and though there was usually a difficult level or two in the ranks before Bedlam, Bedlam I say has a lot of difficult levels. I think I also say this a lot, but once you know the solution then they're easy.

If you're looking for it, it's Bedlam 35, right after "These stairs of mine", which is my absolute favourite level in the pack. So you could kind of say the worst level comes after the coolest level.

Bedlam 35 was actually really easy! Just like ADHD, it only took me 1-2 minutes to see the solution. However, I do have a lot of skills leftover, so it might be a backroute. I'll let you decide when I send the replay. Whereas for Bedlam 34, I too like the concept used in the level. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to set up correctly. Out of all the levels in the pack, this level had me rage the most. It's a great level, as the solution is easy. The execution, though

Spoiler

The builder and miner both need to be assigned at a position so that they meet at exactly the right time. A few seconds too early or too late and either the miner will fall into the water or the builder might stop due to hitting his head. I had to rewind so much to get the timing right. There were a few times I did succeed, but the builder would stop because I started the miner inside the tiny hole and so the builder would run into the terrain. Another time, I got the trick to work, but the miner wasn't able to get the crowd to ascend the wall, even with a stacker next to the wall. That right there made me rage at how very precise the miner and builder assignments have to be to get both the miner and builder to continue, as well as successfully mine the crowd out.

Anyway, I'll send all the replays once I go back and replay the Basic and Moist ranks and Circular 1, along with detailed feedback. Great job on an awesome pack!

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot for your praise of the pack, kaywhyn! Indeed, it's been a couple of years, but now you're officially the first person to have completed Lemmicks! Congratulations!

I'm relieved to hear you still consider levels with an easy-to-see solution that might not be that easy to execute great levels. In my estimation, a lot of other forum members would consider these levels pointlessly annoying (because the puzzle challenge is minor while the execution difficulty makes them "unnecessarily" harder).

Bedlam 35 was actually really easy! Just like ADHD, it only took me 1-2 minutes to see the solution. However, I do have a lot of skills leftover, so it might be a backroute. I'll let you decide when I send the replay. Whereas for Bedlam 34, I too like the concept used in the level. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to set up correctly. Out of all the levels in the pack, this level had me rage the most. It's a great level, as the solution is easy. The execution, though

Good to know; I'll leave Bedlam 35 as it is, then, at least for the time being (unless I find out you severely backrouted it ), and if it's just for WillLem to enjoy Frenzy and Superlemming in comparison!

Bedlam 34 of course is precise to pull off. That's why I have provided Blockers and Walkers to facilitate the correct exact timing. This is a general problem with pretty much any level that involves relative timing between two lemmings (classical case: turning a Builder around mid-performance with a Blocker). But in this case, because it's such a unique thing that's only possible with the Hardworkers gimmick and looks so cool when it finally works out, I think it's worth the hassle.

I've tried to create a comparable level for my upcoming pack Lemmings Open Air ("Paid in full", using my money tileset, on the Heavy rank). But it's still not quite the same.

I think I also say this a lot, but once you know the solution then they're easy.

...and this, in turn, is probably the NeoLemmix ideal: Figuring out the solution itself is the hard part. Once you have figured it out, the implementation should be straightforward. I'm glad you still found a lot of those levels on the Bedlam rank, since I think these are the types of levels also the majority of other forum members will enjoy!

Regarding the difficulty of "Here comes the flood"...

Spoiler

...it had nothing to do with which Blocker you release and how you do it. This is just the beginning of the level, and I think it's pretty obvious which Blocker you have to release to save the most skills . Yes, Flopsy did try to climb the right hand side, but I think he lost most time of the level because he kept assigning the Cloner in the wrong place, so that one of the two worker lemmings always ended up going into the vaporizer trap at the top of the level. I think Flopsy's LP of Lemmicks never even actually shows him solving the level.

Colorful Arty sent me his replays, he did solve the level, but I remember he also struggled a lot with it. I'm happy it was a lot easier for you, but since the number of players who struggled with it are still in the majority right now , I think it should stay in its current position on the rank, as you also said in your edited comment.

[kaywhyn]

As promised, here are the rest of the replays, including Basic and Moist. I've already sent feedback from Basic through Hasty (see reply #59), so I'm just going to do feedback from Cosmic through Nostalgia. However, there is one thing I would like to add for Basic, and that is

Spoiler

Basic 4 - Why did you doubt? I'll be honest, this one is quite difficult for an introduction to stackers and platformers and is a huge step up in difficulty from the previous 3 levels. In particular, the level is very unforgiving in that the platformers must be stretched in order to span the entire water length. Otherwise, you'll run out of platformers for releasing the crowd in the end. Granted, I had no platformers left and two stackers leftover, but it is very uncertain whether one can afford to waste a platformer or two to delay lemmings so that they don't get past the stack to the left. Perhaps you can add a few extra platformers to make the level more forgiving. Not to mention the starting platform is quite small so that it's difficult to ensure the platform bricks don't go past the stacks before the path is ready.

Now for feedback for the rest of the pack.

Spoiler

Cosmic

I'll be truthful here, and that is I wasn't too much of a fan of this rank due to the no gravity gimmick. It was just way too confusing, and I especially think of lemmings going under the stacker was quite surprising and unexpected. Here, I expected lemmings to simply turn around when the stack is done, but nope, they will always slip under a stack in midair and continue walking in the same direction before encountering the stack. Now that I think about it, though, in the same way that lemmings cannot ascend 7 pixels or more, so is the case with the no gravity gimmick, where instead of ascending 6 or less pixels, they instead "descend 6 or less pixels." Even then, I found this more annoying than anything when I expected the lemmings to simply turn around on a stack.

Another unexpected thing that turned out to be very annoying: climbers encountering a miner tunnel when descending from the top of it. If lemmings aren't climbers, they will descend the top of the miner tunnel just fine. However, if a lemming is a climber, instead of descending, the lemming will climb for a single pixel and turn around when hitting the ceiling. This was especially annoying in Cosmic 8 NASA training lab, which is by far the most difficult level of the rank. Saving the non-climbers is easy, but saving the lone climber proved to be a challenge. Near the end with the mining, the climber will go up the miner tunnel as expected, but once up he cannot come back down the miner tunnel he himself made. Granted, I ended up using all skills and so maybe it's supposed to be a hard level.

Even with the confusing gimmick, I still think the levels in this rank were great puzzles. Perhaps this rank is the most difficult to come up with really good puzzles, but you pulled it off just fine. In particular, I had several favorites in this rank, which were Cosmic 5 Buried in rubble, Cosmic 6 Wurmhole required, and Cosmic 10 Back to Earth. The rank finisher just looked really awesome seeing the lemmings "coming back down to earth" descending the builder wall from the other side.

Finally, I have a lot of skills leftover in Cosmic 7 Teaching Ikarus a lesson, so maybe this is a backroute?

     
Suicidal

Just to let you know, this was a great rank, although I'm not much of a fan of killing lemmings. I rather save them.

1 - Kill Lem all Great level to start off the rank

5 - Killing competition This was a great level that featured all the different types of lemmings: zombies, ghosts, and regular. This was also a decent challenge. I was stuck for a time, especially when the ghost would always leave a tiny hole in the platform when mining. To get around that, I stacked with the ghost before mining but then that didn't solve the level since some of the lemmings will still get zombified. Finally, I realized I could stop the zombies from ever encountering the ghost pit by stacking in a way that leaves an overhang so that they cannot climb the wall. Also, I find it amusing that in the ghost pit zombies don't repeatedly turn around due to the "scare" gimmick of ghosts.

6 - Lemocicde Pretty easy. Trap the lemmings with two stacks to the right of the radiation and then simply make the lemmings climb to the left at your own leisure. As a result, I had some skills leftover.

7 - Make Lem Suffer Way too easy especially with the walkers provided. I had some lemmings build due to being too close to the lemming in front so that they wouldn't get past the trap.

8 - To each his own By far my favorite level of the rank, even if we're supposed to kill them all which I prefer not to. Nevertheless, this was pretty easy.

10 - Lem to the slaughter Easy any way you want rank finisher. I liked the idea of leading the two groups to their own deaths, the left entrance can only die by drowning, and the right entrance can only die by traps. Thus, you must make sure there is at least one trap that hasn't been disarmed. Of course, there's also bombing, but you're limited to only 5.

Bedlam

As I said before, the real puzzles were all here in this rank. Many challenging, difficult levels here which as I mentioned in another post that I would definitely place at ONML difficulty, some even being worthy of the Havoc difficulty! Well done! A lot of these levels I really liked. I definitely feel a lot of these levels were well-done and well thought out. This rank must had taken you a long time to make levels, especially since this rank has twice as many Basic levels and 4 times more levels than the ranks that have a gimmick enabled.

1 - Eternal endless infinity Great level to start off the rank!

2 - We Don't Fall Down This was an easy level. I'm still not sure how lemmings can still mine and dig even with no terrain if both the eternal and no gravity gimmicks are active, though. I think it's because lemmings can already bash even with no terrain in front when hardworking gimmick is active, and when no gravity is also active, the no gravity extends it to no terrain needed for miners and diggers, because they will stop otherwise if only hardworkers was active.

3 - Lem Jong Un Whoa, that huge explosion is really cool. Too bad I severely backrouted the level by simply digging so that the zombies fall into the water and didn't even need to resort to the nuclear option. Those zombies got spared from the nuclear radiation. Actually, my several initial attempts had me using the radiation, but I couldn't get it to work since the other lemmings that teleport in wouldn't be able to land on anything. As a result, I struggled and was stuck on this level until I backrouted the level in the way I described above.

5 - For the greater good Did I backroute this level too? I'm guessing the intention was to dig down the OWW, which I didn't have to do at all.

6 - Temple Run Nice level! I do have a builder left over, though.

7 - Concordant crossroads Another excellent level!

8 - Aliens playing Stoertebeker Yet another great level. It's probably just me, but I feel like the space to contain the lemmings to get them down with the builder wall is too small. Then again, I think I could had made it a little easier for myself if I had dug away all of the wall instead of left a bit of it in the air. If you don't mind me asking, what's Stoertebeker? I'm guessing it's German for something?

9 - They might need a job... This one was pretty easy.

10 - Anti World Ok, this one was just really bizzare and took me by surprise at first. In particular, not being able to use skills when the number displayed was 99 really threw me off. At the same time, I guess it could be looked at this way: 99 is essentially the same thing as 0 for a skill when the reverse skill count gimmick is enabled, and the number of each skill you have left is simply 99 minus the current number displayed. This was also the hardest level up to this point, when the previous levels of the rank have been quite easy until this level. In particular, I struggled with releasing the crowd in the digger pit and was quite annoyed at the lemmings not being able to survive drops by falling more than 3 (I think it's 3, I'm not sure) frames from their ground level. In any case, I do have a platformer leftover, so I'm not sure if this is a backroute.

11 - ADHD I already said this was an easy level despite the frenzy and superlemming gimmicks, along with the lazy lemming gimmick.

12 - Minus times minus Equals a positive. I couldn't resist saying this, especially since I was a math major for both my undergrad and grad school. Anyway, this was an excellent 1 of everything level! I did struggle with this level, but only because the platformer wouldn't build when I expected him to when at the extreme edge. I guess it just doesn't work on even ground when turn on assign is active, even though that's what you would expect because of how lemmings are able to platform just fine when facing forward.

14 - Have your cake and eat it Excellent and great looking level! The unalterable terrain gimmick did take me by surprise, especially with how builders don't leave any of the bricks behind.

15 - Mirror, mirror Another excellent level that I struggled with for a time.

16 - Vengeful rebirth I'm guessing the intention was to lead the lemmings to the vine swamp. If so, this is a backroute!

18 - Hive mind Wow, I really like this level! It's a really good puzzle with a really good solution. I did struggle with getting around the assign all gimmick, especially with being able to get the lemmings up at the beginning, but once I saw how to do it it was an easy level.

19 - Lem Norris I have killed the lemming god. I liked this puzzle too! I do have some bombers leftover, though.

21 - Thousand shadows Yet another great 1 of everything puzzle!

22 - Split Seconds Ok, I admit that initially I raged at this level and thought it was unfair. I did try platforming and stacking across the lava several times, but due to the lazy lemmings and superlemming gimmicks, along with frenzy, it made it impossible to tell if I had stretched the platformers as far as possible. Not to mention I had to keep on rewinding due to missing on clicking the lemming. Even then, I should had been able to tell that it won't work no matter how hard you try. I even played the level by having the frenzy and superlemming gimmicks disabled, where it was much easier to stretch out the platformers, and sure enough it is indeed impossible. After confirming that and still haven't yet solved the level, I then played with the gimmicks that are active for this level again. After a few more minutes of thinking and looking at the lemmings from each entrance, I happened to mouse over some of the lemmings from the left entrance by chance and noticed that right above the skill panel it said swimmer. Once I realized the entire left entrance were swimmers to begin with, the solution came to me very easily. So, even with the frenzy and superlemming gimmicks, nothing unfair about this level at all and is a very easy level once it hits you that all the lemmings from the left hatch are pre-assigned swimmers, which is very easy to miss here since I thought it was simply a pickup that gets collected almost right away at the start.

See, I had a similar thing happen on a level in one of Giga's packs, where there is a huge water gap and with the amount of builders/platformers given that it's impossible to save the left entrance with a lemming from the right entrance. I then realized that it must be the case that all the lemmings on the left entrance must be a pre-assigned swimmer entrance. Indeed, I tested it by having a lemming from that entrance drop into the water, and sure enough they were indeed all pre-assigned swimmers. I think the entrance was also labeled with a swimmer pick-up.

Here, you're absolutely correct in the post-level text that it's crucial to label the hatches carefully, as otherwise you would think the level is impossible. I'm certain this level will definitely throw many people off like it did with me here for a good 20 or so minutes.

24 - Changing Tides Great puzzle that I had to think for a time. In the first few tries where I finally got the solution, I time skipped when I bashed the castle, only to find to my surprise that I didn't pass. Indeed, they unfortunately failed due to the rising water gimmick where it drowned two of my lemmings just as they were so close to exiting. I think all I needed to do was to adjust the positioning of the stack. Here, there was no reason for me to assign a disarmer because I didn't even disarm the trap. So, I do have a disarmer leftover, and even if you intended for it to be used, I think the level will be failed no matter what due to the rising water. I'm not sure, though.

26 - Claustrophobia Yet another easy and great level! I even killed one more than the kill requirement.

27 - Immortal Valor Yet another great and easy level!

28 - Prison break I have a feeling this is not intended. I have a miner and stacker leftover.

29 - The dead shall serve Ah yes, I take you must be a Warcraft 3 fan? Anyway, I think this might be a backroute as well. Nice puzzle, though!

30 - We all fall down as one 3rd unintended backroute in a row? I have so many skills leftover. However, great puzzle as well!

31 - Lem of Steel Hmm, first level to have 5 gimmicks active at once I believe: frenzy, superlemming, invincibility, hardworker, and instant pick-up, although like you said the fact that the lemmings are immortal is useless, so I guess technically 4 gimmicks active at once.

33 - Do I have to tell you twice? Great introduction level to the disobedience gimmick with an excellent puzzle. Solution came to me after a few minutes. Now that I came back to this level, I just realized the hint is in the title itself.

34 - These stairs of mine I already gave you feedback on this level, so I'll just repeat what I said here. I like the concept used in the level. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to set up correctly. Out of all the levels in the pack, this level had me rage the most. It's a great level, as the solution is easy. The execution, though The builder and miner both need to be assigned at a position so that they meet at exactly the right time. A few seconds too early or too late and either the miner will fall into the water or the builder might stop due to hitting his head. I had to rewind so much to get the timing right. There were a few times I did succeed, but the builder would stop because I started the miner inside the tiny hole and so the builder would run into the terrain. Another time, I got the trick to work, but the miner wasn't able to get the crowd to ascend the wall, even with a stacker next to the wall. That right there made me rage at how very precise the miner and builder assignments have to be to get both the miner and builder to continue, as well as successfully mine the crowd out.

35 - So much to do, so little time Same as Bedlam 34, I'll just repeat the feedback I already gave for this level. This was actually really easy! Just like ADHD, it only took me 1-2 minutes to see the solution. However, I do have a lot of skills leftover, so it might be a backroute.

36 - Break a leg I have so many skills leftover, so I probably backrouted this level badly.

37 - Extreme circumstances This was an excellent puzzle! Another favorite of mine.

38 - Ultimate incompatibility I also liked this level! Thank goodness the fall heights weren't inverted either. I do have plenty of skills leftover, though, but the bashers for the most part are useless anyway. I'm not sure if the worker lemming is supposed to climb over the stack after building it. Then again, I don't think stacker lemmings are right up against the stack. I think they actually have to walk up to it in a frame. I might be wrong, though.

39 - Descent into insanity Wow, this was actually a difficult level. Definitely the analogue to Mayhem 29 Save Me where it's the second to last level of the main pack (not counting the Nostalgic rank here) in terms of difficulty. You have 20 of every skill, but it's not really a true X of everything level since all skill counts decrease by 1 except for the one just assigned. I kept struggling due to thinking I had to platform from the other side for the bottom hatch. However, this created all sorts of problems as I would keep running out of destructive skills to get the lemmings out later. I later realized that I could simply mine the bottom hatch uot and then build up to the top entrance. Same with the entrance above and to the right of the bottom one. All in all, this was still a great level. Oh, and thank you for not enabling frenzy here! The level's already hard and chaotic enough with all that's going on in the level with all the other gimmicks active and all.

40 - Cerebral Hemorrhage The ultimate level that puts together everything you learned in the previous ranks for one final test of your skills. Even with all the previous introduced gimmicks active, I didn't find this level hard. As a matter of fact, I thought this was a great puzzle and level for the rank finisher. I didn't have to collect the bomber pick-up, though. I think it's a red herring?

Nostalgic

1 - Culling frenzy I didn't use any floaters or gliders in my solution, but I'm guessing this is ok. It does look weird with a still half covered exit, but at least the lemmings can still exit from either side.

3 - Nuclear waste disposal This was a great level. However, the stacker assignment is very precise. I guess the bombers to prevent the lemmings from exiting is kind of precise too.

4 - Reach for the Stars This was a really good slowfreeze puzzle! Not too difficult.

6 - elbisreverrI At first, I thought the title was a foreign language word, but nope, it's just "irreversible" spelled backwards. By far the hardest level of the rank, especially since upon letting the level play out for a few seconds it's not at all clear where you'll supposed to lead the lemmings to since it's already confusing seeing lemmings come out of the exit. Bizarre level where lemmings come out of the exit and need to reach the entrance hatch. This used to be such a thing in Neolemmix? The trickiest part is building from the bottom of the level to the platform above and to the right below the other two platforms where the hatch is. It's not clear how many builders it's supposed to take while ensuring you'll still have enough to reach the hatch.

7 - Stop steeling my features! I'm not sure what the pre-text means here. Also, I don't think I ever figured out if there's any indication to tell where the hidden steel areas are, and so this was a complete trial-and-error level for me. Granted, it's not a difficult level, it's just made so due to not knowing where the steel areas are. There were times that I thought I had the level solved, only to be taken by surprised that what I was bashing or mining through got stopped due to terrain that actually has steel that you can't see.

8 - Don't feed the Lem Nothing too hard about this level. Why was this graphic set unconverted?

9 - Give up the ghost Nice ghost puzzle!

10 - That's all you're left with An easy 10 of everything level to finish up the level pack where it's just akin to a Basic level with no gimmicks active.   

Indeed, it's been a couple of years, but now you're officially the first person to have completed Lemmicks! Congratulations!

Thank you so much, Strato. This means a lot I apparently overestimated the age of this pack when I said 4-5 years. I think what was going through my mind at the time was that because this pack is for v1.43, I thought Lemmicks would be old, especially since Giga's packs I've played through are around 4-5 years old themselves and are only compatible with v1.43. However, all I had to do to see that Lemmicks is only about 2 years old was check your first post in this thread and see that it's dated 2018. Because Lemmicks is now around 2 years old, did you ever give up hope that someone out there would ever finish your pack to the end? I'm glad that the v1.43 player is still around in case people ever want to take up the task of beating this pack, like I just did.

With this, great job on a very well-done high quality pack! For all the others, if you haven't done so yet, I highly recommend giving this pack a go! It doesn't disappoint at all. Rest assured that after having played through and beaten all the levels there's absolutely nothing unfair about this pack. There are a few levels with very pixel precise assignments, but these levels were simply challenging puzzles that were very enjoyable for me. Same thing with most of the other levels that don't have very precise assignments. Finally, there was pretty much only about 1 or 2 difficult levels per rank, but even then they're not over-the-top hard. The biggest exception is Bedlam, which has several hard ones and many that I would definitely place at ONML difficulty, but they're not too overly difficult. Just need to have knowledge of how the mechanics work when several gimmicks are active. You're welcome, Strato

[Strato Incendus]

Thank you very much, kaywhyn! For playing, for your high praise of the pack, and for taking the time to write such an extensive feedback to almost each of the remaining levels!

Somehow I can't open your replay folders. I do have win.rar, not just win.zip, but it tells me the archive is damaged / corrupted, or used an unknown file format. Maybe you can try putting them into a zip-file instead?

Regarding your questions:

1) Stoertebeker was a German pirate who, as legend has it, was sentenced to death by beheading, but tried to free his crew by running past them while they were standing in line. Every crewmember he could run past before collapsing would be liberated, that was the deal. Supposedly he made it past 11 pirates before the cutioner tripped him. Yet, these 11 were executed together with everyone else. A pretty pointless legend, somehow.
In the level, in contrast, some lemmings will inevitably make it into the teleporters that lead them to the exit, i.e. be saved, even though you are in the cutioner's position due to the Karoshi gimmick being active, so you wouldn't want them to.

2) On pre-assigned Swimmers: Haha, looks like this is the second half to the "Skies aflame" story : My first pack, Paralems, had a level called "Skies aflame" (re-appearing on the Groupie rank of Lemmings World Tour) which several forum members deemed impossible, due to them not being able to tell that the lemmings were pre-assigned Swimmers. They tried to solve the level in their minds before the hatch even opened, so they couldn't tell.

This was when I first heard about the NeoLemmix custom of labelling hatches that have pre-assigned skills with pickup skills. Back in Old Formats, hatches didn't gain these labels automatically, as they do in New Formats. I was somewhat resistant to accepting this custom, because I thought precisely what you did: That the labelling pickup skill could be confused for one you could actually collect. Now I can say: q.e.d.!

This issue is of course smaller with regular pickup skills, because usually, when you have e.g. pre-assigned Swimmers, there's no need to place Swimmer pickups in the level because they wouldn't be of any incremental use. In NeoLemmix 1.43 however, where you can also have instant pickup skills, the fact that a skill doesn't appear on your skill panel is not necessarily indicative of a pickup skill in a level being useless.

To prevent players from trying to collect the pickup skill that was just intended to label a hatch, Old Formats had the option of making objects fake. This is also the trick I used to reverse hatch and exit on one of the levels you mentioned. This option has been removed from New Formats for its trolling potential, which is why it appears on the Nostalgic rank, alongside everything else that has been removed.

Meanwhile, two levels from Nostalgic are technically no longer warranted, because both the VGA specs (like the troll graphic from "Don't feed the Lem") and anti-splat pads have been re-added to New-Formats. (VGA specs is a tileset of its own in New Formats that also includes e.g. the Awesome, Menacing, and the two Beast levels as complete landscapes).


3) I had totally forgotten about Climbers not being able to use the ceilings of Miner tunnels to go down with the No-Gravity gimmick being active. By that I mean "forgotten in the meantime"; I'm pretty sure I knew it back when designing the pack. This might have made for some interesting Bedlam puzzles where both No Gravity from the Cosmic rank and the Non-Permanent Skills gimmick from the Ephemeral rank could have been active. This would have allowed a Climber to go up somewhere and then still use a Miner tunnel to go down later.

I only used the "forget you were a Climber" trick on one Ephemeral level to enable the double-Miner turnaround, i.e. one Miner cancelling a Miner in the opposite direction. Climbers have a hard time doing this trick, because they spend the crucial moment "hugging" the end of the mine shaft, as nin10doadict called it while let's-playing Pit Lems, after I had told him. Later on I found out that Climbers can actually still perform this trick, it's just even harder to time correctly.


4) I do have Warcraft 3 and the expansion on my games shelf right here, but I never played it that much, so "The dead shall serve" wasn't an intentional reference. I had a friend at school who was playing a lot of World of Warcraft back in the day and kept telling me about in-game anecdotes non-stop, until at one point I understood most of the jokes. So maybe it's on a subconscious level ...

5) Thanks for your suggestion regarding the Basic rank! I think I'll have to see your replay for "Why did you doubt?" to know exactly what you mean, but as I said, so far the .rar folders don't seem to be working on my PC, for some reason.



Overall, while I'm glad you still found the Cosmic rank to contain some great puzzles, in total I hear you weren't much of a fan of this gimmick either, as it is true for most of the other players.

Thus, I think the majority vote is in on this, so that the second gimmick pack WillLem and I are contemplating should probably not include the No-Gravity gimmick. At least there shouldn't be a dedicated rank for it, like Cosmic in Lemmicks. I doubt anyone would have issues with it occasionally showing up on a mixed Bedlam-style rank.

[kaywhyn]

Somehow I can't open your replay folders. I do have win.rar, not just win.zip, but it tells me the archive is damaged / corrupted, or used an unknown file format. Maybe you can try putting them into a zip-file instead?

That is strange. They work perfectly fine on my end. Anyway, I removed the old rar attachment and reattached the rar file that's supposedly repaired, as well as a zip file (see post above this one). Let me know if either of them work. Regardless of whether the rar file works, I'll remove it once you confirm with me that it's either working or not but the zip file will remain.

[Strato Incendus]

Yep, the zip file works for me! Thank you, kaywhyn, looks like I've got quite a lot to watch now!

[kaywhyn]

Thanks for letting me know, Strato. I went ahead and removed the rar file. Did the new rar file work too, btw? Looking forward to the feedback on the replays. Next pack of yours I'll try will either be LWT or Pitlems/Paralems. For the former, I think I'll try it in both Old Formats and New Formats and see how well-done the radiation/slowfreeze levels were. In all likelihood, I'll probably start with the latter ones since they're much smaller packs than LWT, and even when combined is still only about half LWT's total number of levels.