Legal issues - Copyright holder of Lemmings

[Leviathan]

Plates? :: It's probably best you don't start the discussion, I have a feeling you would only embarass yourself sooner or later. &#A0;(Either that, or I just don't understand what you said.)

I meant record companies like "spinefarm records" or things like that...I guess my english translation of the Dutch word "platenfirma" was badly chosen.

[ccexplore]

Ok, I thought you meant record companies.

Plate companies would be making the flat circular thing you put your food on.  

And I keep forgetting that this is international, so it's possible that laws differ slightly from country to country.  What I know of course is most closely related to U.S. laws.  Come to think of it, I wonder if switching the word "lemmings" to another language could sidestep the issue?  (I won't risk it but who knows?)

[Mindless]

My rescue plan at this moment is to only deliver the game engine and extract everything else from an (installed) Win95 version. However, I changed lots of the resources in the mean time. Also this would be a lot of (boring) work and would somehow ruin large parts of my design.

Hmm... IMHO, this is the way to go, but what kind of changes have you made? And what parts of your design would be ruined?  I'm sure we can figure out ways to make everything work, since I'm really looking forward to your game.

In reality, there's very little chance that even Sony would take notice of a new Lemmings clone, or even distibuting the original files.  

Edit: And if you do need the files to be modified, I can write a patcher, and you can have the user mass-patch the original files to your liking.

[0xdeadbeef]

I'm surprised that it took you that long to come to terms with this.  I would think that you're aware of going down this path the moment you started ripping graphics off the Win95 version.

Of course I was aware, but as I said: as I began, I never really believed this would end in a fully playable game worth releasing.

Don't bother.  AFAIK in the history of computer games, especially well-known commercial ones, there has never been a case of individuals being granted any sort of licensing terms beyond the boilerplate ones specified by the software's EULA.  Copyrights (and other IPs) are generally transferred or bought/sold/traded between corporations or similar business entities, often as part of an overall transfer of IP within a business acquisition or the like.

Yeah well, some companies gave their once commercial  games into the public domain, some released source code etc.
It's not like you could earn a lot of money by re-releasing the _original_ Lemmings in 2005. So if businessmen were receptive to human logic, there would be a chance. Unfortunately, the usually aren't

It also doesn't help that Sony is indeed currently planning to release a remake of Lemmings for the PSP in the near future.

Bad timing I guess. However, this is a completely reworked version for a completely different system, so the is really no impact IMHO.
I borrow from the Win95 version, so my first goal is to find out who own the copyright to this version, then who holds a "general" lemmings copyright.

Even if they did, I doubt they'd be of help.  Copyright laws have a "for-hire" clause whereby any creative work created by a paid employee hired by a company, means that the company, not the employee, owns the copyright.  And most companies, especially in the business of software, generally makes their employee sign an even more stringent agreement as part of their condition for employment anyway.

Hm, I think you got me wrong. At this moment, I didn't ask anybody for any permission. I just try to find out WHOM to ask and since there is no chance to get an aswer if I write to any "official" address, it would somehow help me to find someone inside Sony/Take2 who is at least willing to listen to my plea.
I'm aware that chances are low that someone will give me a sensible answer. And they are close to zero that my plea will be granted. However, at least i want to TRY to ask.

Though I suppose in the case of Mike, if he has graphics which were never used in the game and sufficiently different from the actual ones in the game, conceivably he could own the copyrights to such graphics.  But we haven't seen him around for a while.

As I said, you got me completely wrong here. It's not that I asked Mike for permission because I'm well aware that he surely doesn't own the copypright. I just asked him - amongst other people - if he could clarify the legal situation (e.g. whether Sony or Take2 hold the copyright).
Chances are that he knows someone "behind the scenes" whom I may ask.

Maybe they would tell me that even if I released only the engine, they would sue the crap out of me. It's just that I want to know where I'm standing and what to expect.
I'm just not keen on getting into legal trouble because of something that I do for fun.

[ccexplore]

Which is actually why it's possible that you could be better off not contacting Sony/whatever-big-company so they are not alert to this so soon, well before you are even close to finishing the game.  Although I guess contacting Mike could be worth a try.

But really, call me cynical but I think it's more likely to be a fruitless try than anything else (I can hardly imagine anyone "behind the scene" having that much power and motivation to do something for some, well forgive the harshness, "nobody''), but like one of the Genesis levels, I guess one should "try anything once".

Incidentally, if you really are going to go for a plea, I suggest turning it into some form of petition that all of us here can sign somehow, so that the company cann't just dismiss it as the cry of the lone wolf.  (Of course, the cry of 100 lone wolves ain't much either, but still a stronger cry )

[ccexplore]

Yeah well, some companies gave their once commercial &#A0;games into the public domain, some released source code etc.
It's not like you could earn a lot of money by re-releasing the _original_ Lemmings in 2005. So if businessmen were receptive to human logic, there would be a chance. Unfortunately, the usually aren't

It's possible they would be worried, especially with the release of the PSP remake, that release the original into public domain can jeopardize some aspects of the IP standings of the PSP remake.  It's certainly a complication they probably won't care to investigate if they don't have to, and they won't have to if they don't release the original to public domain or the like.

Moreover, you cannot deny that a free version of the original game has the possibility to compete with the PSP remake, despite the differences in platform and other aspects.  At least one person here (LemSteven) mentioned how he found little reason to buy a PSP and pay for the game, when he's already playing the original games for free.

This is the kind of arguments business logic would come up with, fair or not.

[Conway]

As long as the game isn't being sold commercially, I don't see what the problem is. You're not competing with Sony for a profit, you're just making a fan game. You're not making money from they're fundamental game concept, so they should have no complaint, even if they do find it.

  And I seriously doubt the existence of another fan game will affect future sales of the official games.

[ccexplore]

As long as the game isn't being sold commercially, I don't see what the problem is. You're not competing with Sony for a profit, you're just making a fan game. You're not making money from they're fundamental game concept, so they should have no complaint, even if they do find it.

&#A0;And I seriously doubt the existence of another fan game will affect future sales of the official games

That's generally what fans argued with regards to fan games, but it's still the point that when the fan game is so close to the original in look and feel, it would act as a free version of the official game and therefore may cause certain consumers that might have bought the official version to get the free version instead.  This would be a business loss for the company.

I certainly am not saying the argument is bulletproof, but this is the general principle behind it.  In effect, you are "selling" the fan game for $0.  I too doubt that the effect will be significant since it seems like right now there isn't significant overlap yet between the PSP Lemmings crowd and the "old-school" Lemmings crowd here, but we can certainly point to LemSteven as an example evidence of a consumer whose decision has been influenced by the availability of these "free" versions of Lemmings.

(In case you're confused: keep in mind that this doesn't you can't have competing products, just that you cannot have a competing product that is produced mostly by copying an existing product, in effect stealing the time and efforts the company spent on the existing product.)

[Mindless]

Any progress update?

[ccexplore]

I sure hoped I didn't scare 0xdeadbeef out of this (then again, it sounded like he himself was more worried about copyright issues than anyone else here).

If you did decided to let the big companies have their way and abandon your project to the disappointment of everyone here, at least let us know now and relieve us of a diet of false hope.

[0xdeadbeef]

I decided some weeks ago to extract (most of) the resources from the Win95 version to stay clear off copyright issues.
However, I had little to no spare time lately and to be honest, writing this extractor/patcher is kinda boring work.
However, as soon as I have a little more time (hope in two weeks or so), I plan to continue...
If I have the extractor/patcer working, I think I will annouce a public beta here.
But this will be most probably more like mid/end december.

[Mindless]

Glad to know you didn't give up on it.  

[Mike]

For the record, copyright was jointly own by Dave/DMA and Psygnosis with DMA recieving first refusal on any Lemmings projects Psygnosis wanted to have done. DMA Passed on 3DLemmings, which is why someone else did it.

However, Dave then sold his half back to Psygnosis making them sole owner. When Sony bought them, they also bought the Lemmings brand completly too.

Take 2 dont own anypart of it. They published revolutions I believe because Sony didn't want to, so a deal was done - probably cutting Sony in on the royalties.

"Lemmings" is a trademark, and believe me when I say, you dont want to "have" to go to court to argue it - they have more money than you. Pick another name, or use penguins or "Pingus" instead. Anything that gives the feeling of "lots" of them...like "ants" or something.

If you use the graphics directly, then you're in breach of copyright, but theres nothing stopping you from redrawing it and making new levels.

If you plan to allow you "Java" game on other platforms, then simply use the graphics from a win95 release - but dont supply them. This means the "public" can go and buy a legal copy, then use your program to run it on (say) a mac, or Linux. This is legal (I believe) since your not supplying copyrighted data, just using it when they have legally purchased it.

But the rule of thumb when dealing with any big company, is avoid anything that "may" land you in court. They have more cash.

[0xdeadbeef]

Thanks for the reply.
Indeed the last thing mentioned is the way I plan to go as hinted some posts above: when starting for the first time, the program will ask for a Win95 CD or installation and then the resources will be converted to something I can use. However: I need to patch some resources because they were buggy in the Win95 release of because I did rework them for some reason. Lust but not least, I need to bundle some resources not contained in the Win95 release (special levels, mod music).
Yeah well, I fear that if Sony's lawyers have a bad day, they will find a way to sue me anyway. To some point, I just have to hope that they don't feel it's worth it.

[tseug]

They will be having a bad day for some time...
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation_sues_Sony_over_CD_technology
They might even ignore you.